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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Wildlife results .....seriously.
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01/30/2007 08:24:04 PM · #126
Originally posted by L2:

So far, I see a lot of "but...it didn't meet the challenge!" which we know from the rules is not cause for DQ. I'm just curious about why not meeting the challenge is such a big deal here, in this challenge.

Can anyone enlighten me?


We had these arguments back during the 4-5am challenge and the 2 second exposure challenge. Some people felt back then and do now that we were all given a very specific task to shoot. I deducted points on zoo shots but not in all cases and it's usually just 1-2 points anyway. If you captured the animal so that it looked like it was out in the wild or showed it's wild side I scored it well regardless of whether it was at the zoo or not. In Scalvert's case the shot looked like it was taken at the zoo and while technically good didn't convey that animal's wild essense, IMO. That said, I don't think I did a very good job myself and mine was not at the zoo.

While I do agree in principle with yakatme, hahnn and others who are against the zoo animals I do not agree that those that shot zoo animals should be hung from a tree and have their ethics questioned. This is a contest for ribbons and high scores. Anything not against the rules should be fair game and are.

Message edited by author 2007-01-30 20:26:36.
01/30/2007 08:24:05 PM · #127
Originally posted by yakatme:

This is my Wildlife II entry - - -


Big deal!

I could do it too if *I* had a pet gator!.....8>)
01/30/2007 08:27:24 PM · #128
Originally posted by levyj413:

First, I want to mention that this exact point was debated quite a bit before the challenge closed:
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=528240&page=1#3263970

Second, I was surprised that "tricks" were allowed and even celebrated when I first came to DPC. I've since accepted that's the way it works. I still don't think it's right, given the way the challenges are described.

Third, I hear a lot of people one both sides saying "you're wrong and you can't force your interpretation on me" while then denying that the other side has any validity to its way of thinking.

But the real source of frustration isn't a debate over how things should go, it's a difference in understanding how the whole thing is set up in the first place.

My suggestion is to simply add the phrase "that appears to" or something equivalent to every challenge description.

That way, everyone knows the playing field, as opposed to some taking it one way and others taking it another.

Thus:
For the purpose of this challenge, take a shot of something that appears to be wildlife. "Wildlife" should be considered non-domesticated mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians living in a natural environment. Now that you know what to photograph, take your best shot!

and

Take a picture that apppears to be between 4:00 and 5:00 AM. This challenge may also be known as the "I can't believe I got up this early to take a photograph for a ^$&@*# challenge" challenge.

and

Take a picture that appears to be taken at night.

etc.


That's all very well and good 'til the first time you enter a challenge with the details N/A and twelve people telll you you haven't met the "spirit of the challenge"!
01/30/2007 08:32:04 PM · #129
Originally posted by ace flyman:

I'm one of the dummies that went out in 24degree weather......


Wow if you can be a dummie going out in 24 degree weather what does that make me who went out in 2 degree weather to get this shot???

any ideas?
01/30/2007 08:34:49 PM · #130
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by L2:

So far, I see a lot of "but...it didn't meet the challenge!" which we know from the rules is not cause for DQ. I'm just curious about why not meeting the challenge is such a big deal here, in this challenge.

Can anyone enlighten me?


We had these arguments back during the 4-5am challenge and the 2 second exposure challenge. Some people felt back then and do now that we were all given a very specific task to shoot....


I was around back then, too, and had the same question at that time as well.

The OP was wishing that people who didn't meet the challenge should be DQ'd. Since DNMC isn't a DQ'able offense, I thought that would be the end of it. Now we've got people all up in arms shouting about ethics, and I just don't understand why. There are DNMC shots in every challenge. Like you, I've deducted 1-2 points for DNMC in the past and likely will again.

With that said, and please realize I understand that in this particular case the challenge details might have been considered by some to be ambiguous, WHY is it an considered an ethical breach HERE, and not in every other challenge?

Should it matter whether the details were clear? Isn't it even worse if the challenge details WERE clear? I mean, if the details were clear and someone STILL didn't meet the challenge, I could understand the outrage a bit better...

Edited: typos

Message edited by author 2007-01-30 20:36:22.
01/30/2007 08:34:54 PM · #131
Originally posted by yakatme:

The answer is simple: I CHALLENGE you or anybody else to do it.


If that's the answer, then I challenge YOU to convince the viewers you've captured a natural environment in a place where you don't have a nice sunset vista to work with! In the "wild" a natural environment is a given, but the animal is hard to find. At a zoo, the animal might be easy to find, but natural backgrounds are scarce. One is no more a challenge than the other IMO even though both have the same goal: a photo of an animal in a natural environment. As we're all photographers, we should know better than anybody that it's the image that matters.

Originally posted by cutter:

In the wildlife challenge here, the "spirit" of the challenge was to photograph wildlife.


As it was in Wildlife I, where 4 of the top 10 (including the blue and red ribbons) were shot at a zoo... and nobody disputed that it was wildlife. Image is everything.
01/30/2007 08:41:25 PM · #132
Originally posted by levyj413:



My suggestion is to simply add the phrase "that appears to" or something equivalent to every challenge description.

That way, everyone knows the playing field, as opposed to some taking it one way and others taking it another.

Thus:
For the purpose of this challenge, take a shot of something that appears to be wildlife. "Wildlife" should be considered non-domesticated mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians living in a natural environment. Now that you know what to photograph, take your best shot!

and

Take a picture that apppears to be between 4:00 and 5:00 AM. This challenge may also be known as the "I can't believe I got up this early to take a photograph for a ^$&@*# challenge" challenge.

and

Take a picture that appears to be taken at night.

etc.


That would make it a lot easier, but I can't help feeling that that simply should not be necessary. Everyone knows the camera lies: that's the entire point of photography.

Say you take a picture of a barren wilderness and call it 'Alone in the Desert' for a theoretical Solitude Challenge. Suppose you take it from the verandah of your country house during a party. Had you pointed the lense the other way you would have an entirely different perspective. Yet, no one could argue that the original image did not capture the feeling of solitude.
The only rules at DPC relate to editing, plagiarism, and the time frame of the challenge.
Apart from that, one can do whatever one wants to make an image that fits the challenge. And I see no reason when we are talking about an artistic visual medium to make a distinction between Appearing to meet the Challenge, and meeting the challenge. If one's image meets the editing rules & convinces the voter of its relevance, that's enough.

This is NOT a pure photojournalism site.

If you want to go out and shoot the challenges according to a strict personal code then feel free, I can understand the desire to govern your own activity. There's no reason to force it on others. But you can't expect to get points for hidden effort. You just get a feeling of smug superiority and the opportunity to learn and improve.

OTOH I was completely bowled over by the quality of some of the 'true' wildlife shots and the dedication showed by some of the photographers.

(Oh, and the obvious personal opinion tag applies to all of the above)

Message edited by author 2007-01-30 20:44:22.
01/30/2007 08:41:30 PM · #133
Originally posted by ace flyman:

I'm one of the dummies that went out in 24degree weather......


Woo... balmy! I went to the zoo, but I was all alone there because the wind chills were below zero. In several hours, the only people I saw were zoo staff, yet it would seem that I didn't make any effort... :-/
01/30/2007 08:42:50 PM · #134
Originally posted by scalvert:

.....As it was in Wildlife I, where 4 of the top 10 (including the blue and red ribbons) were shot at a zoo... and nobody disputed that it was wildlife. Image is everything.


Yup :)

8th place
01/30/2007 08:54:42 PM · #135
I showed a bird feeding in our garden, it's not a pet nor is it domesticated, it didnt do that well in the challenge but I got a chuckle especially from people who had never seen a bird feeder before.

1. It's not a cage.
2. If it WAS a cage, dont you think the bird would be on the inside ?

Do birdfeeders only exist in the UK ? *lol*
Congrats to the winners though, some truly exceptional shots !
01/30/2007 09:10:55 PM · #136
Originally posted by scalvert:


Woo... balmy! I went to the zoo, but I was all alone there because the wind chills were below zero. In several hours, the only people I saw were zoo staff, yet it would seem that I didn't make any effort... :-/


I have no doubt that capturing an animal in a zoo setting can be quite time consuming and tricky. I have been there myself....My problem is certainly not with the image or the skill even...It lies within the purpose, spirit and intent behind the challenge.

Originally posted by scalvert:



As it was in Wildlife I, where 4 of the top 10 (including the blue and red ribbons) were shot at a zoo... and nobody disputed that it was wildlife. Image is everything.


I believe people's concerns would be the same, even if they weren't voiced at the time.


01/30/2007 09:11:26 PM · #137
Originally posted by zarniwoop:

Originally posted by levyj413:



My suggestion is to simply add the phrase "that appears to" or something equivalent to every challenge description.

That way, everyone knows the playing field, as opposed to some taking it one way and others taking it another.

And I see no reason when we are talking about an artistic visual medium to make a distinction between Appearing to meet the Challenge, and meeting the challenge. If one's image meets the editing rules & convinces the voter of its relevance, that's enough.


I'm suggesting that we change "meets the challenge" to explicitly be "appearing to shoot what the description says" instead of, after the fact, debating whether it's that vs. "actually shoots what the description says." Right now, one camp gets to keep doing what they want while the other feels abused,and when the second camp does what they want, the first camp has nothing to complain about. Hence hurt feelings and upset. Why not fix that situation, especially when it's easy?

I see two possible outcomes:
1) We add that phrase at zero cost to anyone and these threads never occur again. Everyone, from newbies to the most experienced, is told up front that the image is everything. If you want to push yourself to literally do what's suggested, great. But if you want to fool the viewer, no problem there, either. People will probably find something else to be upset about, but not this.
2) We don't add that phrase and continue to upset people who think the description means to actually do it, not merely appear to have done it. And continue to have the same thread time after time.

To me, this isn't an ethics question, it's a question of communicating clearly what's expected. Why not do that?

Message edited by author 2007-01-30 21:12:19.
01/30/2007 09:24:29 PM · #138
(ok, bad post)

Message edited by author 2007-01-30 21:28:35.
01/30/2007 09:27:04 PM · #139
Sure, I was just whining anyway.
01/30/2007 09:30:04 PM · #140
Originally posted by levyj413:

...I see two possible outcomes:
1) We add that phrase at zero cost to anyone and these threads never occur again. Everyone, from newbies to the most experienced, is told up front that the image is everything. If you want to push yourself to literally do what's suggested, great. But if you want to fool the viewer, no problem there, either. People will probably find something else to be upset about, but not this.
2) We don't add that phrase and continue to upset people who think the description means to actually do it, not merely appear to have done it. And continue to have the same thread time after time.

To me, this isn't an ethics question, it's a question of communicating clearly what's expected. Why not do that?


This appears to be reasonable solution. We write the challenge details to clarify that "appearing" to meet the challenge is just as good as "actually" meeting the challenge. All about managing expectations, right?

What happens when someone *still* doesn't meet (or appear to meet) the challenge?
01/30/2007 09:37:32 PM · #141
I think its just time to have everyone sacked. Than we will sack those responsible for the sacking of the original sacks to respond with those who will be sacked in the future for sacking the sacked sackers and than we well sack them all again.
01/30/2007 10:38:29 PM · #142


Wildlife Outtake. I guess overall, dp would have preferred this one to my actual entry.
Now that you have seen this one, shall I attempt to put it into the free study to see if my score would be better? Just joking.

Message edited by author 2007-01-30 22:42:49.
01/30/2007 10:39:27 PM · #143
Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by levyj413:

...I see two possible outcomes:
1) We add that phrase at zero cost to anyone and these threads never occur again. Everyone, from newbies to the most experienced, is told up front that the image is everything. If you want to push yourself to literally do what's suggested, great. But if you want to fool the viewer, no problem there, either. People will probably find something else to be upset about, but not this.
2) We don't add that phrase and continue to upset people who think the description means to actually do it, not merely appear to have done it. And continue to have the same thread time after time.

To me, this isn't an ethics question, it's a question of communicating clearly what's expected. Why not do that?


This appears to be reasonable solution. We write the challenge details to clarify that "appearing" to meet the challenge is just as good as "actually" meeting the challenge. All about managing expectations, right?

What happens when someone *still* doesn't meet (or appear to meet) the challenge?


We could just let the voters determine who have the best photos for the theme ;)

Seriously, its the voters who pick the winners. In the zoo or the wild. Why would you try to take the photographers to task for this?
01/30/2007 10:41:24 PM · #144
Originally posted by neophyte:


We could just let the voters determine who have the best photos for the theme ;)


Stop talking crazy.
01/30/2007 10:49:25 PM · #145
Still talkin about this? Let it go. I've found Amway and all is good. Draw some circles anyone?
01/30/2007 10:51:26 PM · #146
Originally posted by neophyte:

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by levyj413:

...I see two possible outcomes:
1) We add that phrase at zero cost to anyone and these threads never occur again. Everyone, from newbies to the most experienced, is told up front that the image is everything. If you want to push yourself to literally do what's suggested, great. But if you want to fool the viewer, no problem there, either. People will probably find something else to be upset about, but not this.
2) We don't add that phrase and continue to upset people who think the description means to actually do it, not merely appear to have done it. And continue to have the same thread time after time.

To me, this isn't an ethics question, it's a question of communicating clearly what's expected. Why not do that?


This appears to be reasonable solution. We write the challenge details to clarify that "appearing" to meet the challenge is just as good as "actually" meeting the challenge. All about managing expectations, right?

What happens when someone *still* doesn't meet (or appear to meet) the challenge?


We could just let the voters determine who have the best photos for the theme ;)

Seriously, its the voters who pick the winners. In the zoo or the wild. Why would you try to take the photographers to task for this?


Huh? Who am I taking to task? I'm trying to make it clear for everyone who enters that it's appearance that matters, since that's the source of upset. I'm not complaining that anyone did anything wrong.
01/30/2007 10:54:16 PM · #147
I wonder what the zoo keeper thought of you being the only one there....Lol

edit; I was joking with my friend Barry, I really can't believe this thread is still going on.....Personally, I voted on the quality of the images, no rules were broken. After the 4 to 5pm challenge, its all good..Lol

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by ace flyman:

I'm one of the dummies that went out in 24degree weather......


Woo... balmy! I went to the zoo, but I was all alone there because the wind chills were below zero. In several hours, the only people I saw were zoo staff, yet it would seem that I didn't make any effort... :-/


Message edited by author 2007-01-30 23:04:24.
01/30/2007 11:03:40 PM · #148
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

What I've learned is that you can't change the voters, but you can change yourself.


Oooh good mantra - love it!
01/30/2007 11:32:40 PM · #149
Originally posted by neophyte:


We could just let the voters determine who have the best photos for the theme ;)

Seriously, its the voters who pick the winners. In the zoo or the wild. Why would you try to take the photographers to task for this?


Actually, earlier in the thread I was arguing that challenge details shouldn't matter this much. If you got fooled, so be it, the end.

IMO, crying about the ethics of how a photographer got the shot is far less important than the quality of the image entered.
01/31/2007 12:38:17 AM · #150
Originally posted by L2:

Actually, earlier in the thread I was arguing that challenge details shouldn't matter this much. If you got fooled, so be it, the end.

IMO, crying about the ethics of how a photographer got the shot is far less important than the quality of the image entered.


That's kinda the idea I got about how this works.

You get guidelines, no hard and fast punishable rules, and you do the best you can to get a shot that wows the voters better than anyone else can.....and have fun doing it.

I'm not sure how ethics and integrity ever started to get called into question.....that was just absurd!

Anybody remember who won the challenge that ended three weeks ago today?

I surely don't!
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