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01/30/2007 06:55:48 PM · #101 |
Perception equals reality.... Kant
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01/30/2007 06:56:14 PM · #102 |
Actually the first two photos got comments about how they in some way didn't meet the challenge. You leave things open to interpretation, they are going to get interpreted. If saying 'natural environment' or 'exactly two of' or 'between 3 and 4 am' serves no purpose, why not just leave the details out altogether? All they do is cause grief. Some people feel like they were put there for a purpose and should have some effect on what types of shots are submitted, and some people clearly don't care.
Dump the challenge details.
edit - sp
Message edited by author 2007-01-30 18:56:49. |
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01/30/2007 06:56:51 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Bravo Shannon! |
Seconded wholeheartedly! |
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01/30/2007 06:59:17 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by levyj413:
Finally, where do you live? Lucky you to see penguins in the wild! |
According to the photo's information he provided it was at Petersen Island which doing a quick google search tells me near Antarctica. |
Petersen Island is a private sanctuary near me. I did not know such a place existed outside of where I went. It is privately owned and only people who are either members or know somebody have access. |
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01/30/2007 06:59:54 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
*Personal rant*
I gotta say I'm saddened that anyone here would think a zoo shot is either unethical in the context of DPC or against the rules. The challenge description is NOT a checklist for what to shoot.......................................................................................................... |
Scalvert -
What is the difference between a challenge here on DPC and a typical photography contest?
I'll give you my answer in a few minutes. |
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01/30/2007 07:16:29 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
*Personal rant*
I gotta say I'm saddened that anyone here would think a zoo shot is either unethical in the context of DPC or against the rules. The challenge description is NOT a checklist for what to shoot, but guidance on what the voters expect to see. The voters are judging the photo, not the model or the camera settings, and the challenge is to show them what they expect to see.
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Playing Devil's Advocate here:
So if you say that the description isn't a checklist, then it should be perfectly acceptable to shoot my dog sitting on the couch. Or do I have to adhere to the non-domesticated part in the description? Why take "natural" for granted but adhere to "non-domesticated" as it was set in stone?
The description is actually nothing more than the defintion of the word. It is a guideline to the challenge, if not why have it? I did not take a photo in a zoo because I personally thought it was against the idea of the challenge. However, when I voted, I did not vote down an entry because it was in a zoo. Everyone reads the challenge a bit differently, shoots a bit differently, and plays a bit differently. Really though it's all in the spirit of the challenge and photography. People should not get hung up in semantics (agreeing with you on this).
My pick to win
My second favorite: Domesticated ->YES, natural -> more so than a Zoo.
My 10th place pic: (your own) Domesticated -> No, natural -> No
Message edited by author 2007-01-30 19:17:52. |
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01/30/2007 07:24:53 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
If saying 'natural environment' or 'exactly two of' or 'between 3 and 4 am' serves no purpose, why not just leave the details out altogether? |
Originally posted by jaysonmc:
So if you say that the description isn't a checklist, then it should be perfectly acceptable to shoot my dog sitting on the couch. |
The description does serve a purpose: it tells you what the voters are looking for. It does not provide rules for meeting that expectation. It IS perfectly accptable to shoot a dog sitting on a couch, but that's not what the voters expect to see. |
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01/30/2007 07:36:42 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by yakatme:
What is the difference between a challenge here on DPC and a typical photography contest? |
There are many:
Some attempt at anonymity and fair play
The goal of helping people learn how to use their digital cameras
A great community willing to help newbies and debate any subject with a civility practically unheard of anywhere else
Topics designed to offer general direction on subject matter, yet also open to alternative approaches
A game compelling enough for tens of thousands of people all over the world to spend ridiculous amounts of time, money and effort to win... nothing. ;-) |
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01/30/2007 07:37:58 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by yakatme:
Originally posted by scalvert:
*Personal rant*
I gotta say I'm saddened that anyone here would think a zoo shot is either unethical in the context of DPC or against the rules. The challenge description is NOT a checklist for what to shoot.......................................................................................................... |
Scalvert -
What is the difference between a challenge here on DPC and a typical photography contest?
I'll give you my answer in a few minutes. |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - This is all my opinion- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Photography Contest - Category: Wildlife
Here is a shot for the above Photography Contest
Member Challenge: Description
For the purpose of this challenge, "wildlife" should be considered non-domesticated mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians living in a natural environment. Now that you know what to photograph, take your best shot!
Here is a shot that exemplifies an attempt to meet the challenge
DPChallenge is much more than a photography contest site and the challenges here are a lot more than just contests.
Just about anybody can go to a zoo and take a picture of a wild animal. Wildlife III was supposed to challenge us to do more than that. Why else would it be called a challenge instead of a contest?
I understand that everybody is entitled to their opinion, and that voters can vote according to their opinion (we've been hearing this over and over again). I also realize that the challengedescription is not a rule and is not grounds for DQ. But these valid points do not change the fact that the details of a challenge are a part of what sets DPChallenge apart from typical contests.
Not everybody can participate in every challenge. The world is not a fair place and even if it was it would be impossible to provide challenges that everybody can always participate in. Submitting photos taken at a zoo into a challenge that detailed that the intent was for the photo to be taken in a natural environment (I don't want to debate this definition) is a slight against those photographer's who chose not to visit the zoo for their entry. Despite the possibility of getting a better photo at the zoo, many photographers sacrificed the chance for a higher score and chose to follow the listed details of this challenge.
Why was the website named DPChallenge in the first place? Why choose the word "Challenge"?
I know that it would have been a hell of a lot easier for me to go to the zoo here in Miami. But that wouldn't have been much of a challenge, would it?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -The above in just my opinion- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
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01/30/2007 07:41:22 PM · #110 |
Shannon -> 
You are crabby today. I wonder why :P
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01/30/2007 07:45:28 PM · #111 |
I have figured out that the way the voters are going to go is a crapshoot.....I'm okay with that.
I'm also okay with missing the mark.....it'll happen more often than not.
I'll even piss and moan about the flogging I take when I do something stupid and get caught with a 3.9 and holding entry......and not lose any sleep over it.
What I have a problem with is people telling me that I don't know what I'm doing, telling me I'm unethical, stupid, or not in the "spirit" or "intent" of the challenge just because I don't do it the way they thought I should.
This is supposed to be fun and a learning experience, yet I hear people getting their nose out of joint like relatives fighting over a will, none of whom had the foggiest idea what was in the writer of the will's mind when he/she did it.
It becomes bothersome and no fun when the personal attacks start.
And the people that sit there and tell me *I* don't meet the standards, as if they wrote them, but did NOT, suck all the air right out of the room.
I have seen instances of people packing it in, taking a long hiatus, or just plain losing all enthusiasm because of some of the presumtuous behavior and just plain mean-spiritedness.
I got as thick of a skin going from having been a mailing list administrator for 2½ years, but I about had all I could take when someone started calling my ethics and integrity into question, simplybecause I didn't agree with his interpretation of the challenge. AND......he neither entered or voted in the challenge in question!
I don't need that kind of behavior, don't want it, and it has made a real impression on me as to how I will enter and participate in challenges in general.
I will be looking elsewhere for my support and knowledge and tempering my time spent here with looking around for a less adversarial climate.
Fortunately, I'm already a member of a group within this group that is supportive, and it helps take the edge off.
Certainly my presence here, ior not, doesn't matter a hill of beans, but I can assure you I ma not alone in the way I have gotten tired of getting kicked merely for offering my opinion in an open forum.
There are an awful lot of good people here......nobody needs to get ugly, what's the point?
There's no promotions in rank, no prize money, and from this conversation as I've seen it going, apparently the pessimists would say that all the "best", read winning, entries are all sellouts as score whores anyway.
The way it seems right now, not only can't you please all the people, etc., you can't freakin' please ANYONE!!!!
I don't want to have that take......I'm a fundamentally happy person who has gotten an enormous amount of education, experience, and enjoyment in a short amount of time here......I'd like to feel that this is a place to continue with that.
Some acceptance, tolerance, understanding, and some compromise isn't a lot to ask and will go a long way.
This is for FUN!!!!
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01/30/2007 07:46:10 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by yakatme:
What is the difference between a challenge here on DPC and a typical photography contest? |
There are many:
Some attempt at anonymity and fair play
The goal of helping people learn how to use their digital cameras
A great community willing to help newbies and debate any subject with a civility practically unheard of anywhere else
Topics designed to offer general direction on subject matter, yet also open to alternative approaches
A game compelling enough for tens of thousands of people all over the world to spend ridiculous amounts of time, money and effort to win... nothing. ;-) |
No, the question is not about the difference between this website and other websites. The question was "What is the difference between a CHALLENGE here on DPC and a typical photography CONTEST?" |
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01/30/2007 07:48:09 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by yakatme:
Just about anybody can go to a zoo and take a picture of a wild animal. |
Many did, but it's not easy to do so in a way that convinces the voters that you've met the description. I expected your entry, the fox and Hahn's coyote to run away with the ribbons. Of those, only the fox was possible to get from a zoo. Therein lies the challenge! |
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01/30/2007 07:48:59 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by yakatme:
The question was "What is the difference between a CHALLENGE here on DPC and a typical photography CONTEST?" |
I read the question. My answer is the same. ;-) |
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01/30/2007 07:51:47 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
This is supposed to be fun and a learning experience... |
...and I believe that this challenge was supposed to get people to try to take a picture "in a natural environment" and learn in the process.
The lesson in this learning experience is to be found in a natural environment, not in a zoo.
I learned a lot by not going to the zoo. I'll revisit the zoo lesson another time. |
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01/30/2007 07:56:29 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by yakatme:
Just about anybody can go to a zoo and take a picture of a wild animal. |
Many did, but it's not easy to do so in a way that convinces the voters that you've met the description. I expected your entry, the fox and Hahn's coyote to run away with the ribbons. Of those, only the fox was possible to get from a zoo. Therein lies the challenge! |
The challenge details don't say to "make the picture appear to have been taken in a natural environment". The challenge is in the process taking the picture. Faking it doesn't meet the challenge of taking the picture in a natural environment.
" Now that you know what to photograph, take your best shot!
"
Message edited by author 2007-01-30 19:57:06. |
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01/30/2007 08:02:26 PM · #117 |
 yakatme, I think you're crazy for getting that close to an alligator, but applaud the effort, and the results.  scalvert, I'm amazed that you could fool so many people with a zoo shot, and more power to you for doing so, imho.
So, bottom line, I loved both your shots .... But I do have a question ... how is it that yakatme's shot is so much more in keeping with the spirit of the challenge, than scalvert's? In reading the description, it sounds like yakatme "just" wandered down to the pier where he knew this alligator would be hanging out, laid down on the planks and got his shot. How is that any different than scalvert's going to a zoo in the freezing cold and using a long lens to hide the bars and getting his shot? If mere effort was the test, there are probably a ton more shots in the 4s and 5s that are more deserving than either of those, even if the end results were not.
[***quickly scurries away and ducks for cover***]
edit:typo
Message edited by author 2007-01-30 20:05:03. |
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01/30/2007 08:03:42 PM · #118 |
Description: For the purpose of this challenge, "wildlife" should be considered non-domesticated mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians that you can't tell from the image that they are not living in a natural environment. Now that you know what to photograph, take your best shot!
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01/30/2007 08:06:14 PM · #119 |
Scalvert,
In response to your personal examples, first off they are all awesome. Second, I believe I am fairly objective and don't get too carried away with the arguments like this. But your examples all reside within the "spirit" of the respective challenges. Like you "Knife, Fork, Spoon" entry. Everyone who saw that, interpreted it and accepted the spirit of that original entry and said, "Okay, I can buy it".
In this debated challenge, a lot of people are saying, "Wait a second, this doesn't feel right". In the wildlife challenge here, the "spirit" of the challenge was to photograph wildlife. It is fairly straightforward. Not zoolife. We all can feel the difference intuitively. I am the first to promote that indeed zoo animals are wildlife within a constrained, human built invention. But to me, and what I feel others are trying to express is the point behind the challenge "Wildlife" and not "At the Zoo".
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01/30/2007 08:07:12 PM · #120 |
Hi! I've followed this thread with some interest, and I'm a bit interested to hear from those who feel zoo shots don't meet the challenge.
Let's set aside for a moment whether or not "natural environment" can be found or imitated in a zoo. I'm wondering if those who feel let down by being fooled are: a) aggravated that they didn't get to zing the zoo shots for DNMC during voting because they couldn't tell the difference, or b) aggravated about the fact that some of the zoo shots placed more highly than their own shot, and c) should DNMC always be cause for questioning the ethics of challenge entrants.
So far, I see a lot of "but...it didn't meet the challenge!" which we know from the rules is not cause for DQ. I'm just curious about why not meeting the challenge is such a big deal here, in this challenge.
Can anyone enlighten me?
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01/30/2007 08:08:01 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by EstimatedEyes:
yakatme, I think you're crazy for getting that close to an alligator, but applaud the effort, and the results. scalvert, I'm amazed that you could fool so many people with a zoo shot, and more power to you for doing so, imho.
So, bottom line, I loved both your shots .... But I do have a question ... how is it that yakatme's shot is so much more in keeping with the spirit of the challenge, than scalvert[/user]'s? In reading the description, it sounds like yakatme "just" wandered down to the pier where he knew this alligator would be hanging out, laid down on the planks and got his shot. How is that any different than scalvert's going to a zoo in the freezing cold and using a long lens to hide the bars and getting his shot? If mere effort was the test, there are probably a ton more shots in the 4s and 5s that are more deserving than either of those, even if the end results were not.
[***quickly scurries away and ducks for cover***] |
Ha Ha, don't scurry away.
The answer is simple: I CHALLENGE you or anybody else to do it.
This is my Wildlife II entry - - -
Very different from my Wildlife III entry. I CHALLENGED myself and learned how to get a photograph from another perspective. I didn't know how to do this in the Wildlife II challenge. |
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01/30/2007 08:10:40 PM · #122 |
Thank you Cutter for stepping in. I've gotta go for now and spend time with my son who has been patiently waiting for me to play some Xbox with him.
edit to add: Only kidding about taking over for me, it was just a good oportunity to step out of this for the night.
Message edited by author 2007-01-30 20:11:57. |
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01/30/2007 08:12:35 PM · #123 |
You know what I find funny about these threads? The majority of the voters don't participate in the forums. Really, rants like this are preaching to the choir.
I know, I went into a tirade about Industrial Bronze. And probably made a fool of myself, but I've learned a lot about DPC since then. What I've learned is that you can't change the voters, but you can change yourself.
If you're gonna do "art" do it. Enjoy it. Do it for yourself.
Two terms that I am losing all respect for:
"art" - way overused when describing BAD images. Just because an image sucks doesn't mean it's art. It just sucks.
"Out of the Box" - there is no freakin' box! You either had an idea that people can relate to or you failed to communicate. You were not outside a box or over voters heads, you just missed the boat. Too bad, maybe next time.
Edit: "You" is used as a generic term, read as one or he/she/it.
Message edited by author 2007-01-30 20:14:44.
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01/30/2007 08:16:15 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by L2:
Hi! I've followed this thread with some interest, and I'm a bit interested to hear from those who feel zoo shots don't meet the challenge.
Let's set aside for a moment whether or not "natural environment" can be found or imitated in a zoo. I'm wondering if those who feel let down by being fooled are: a) aggravated that they didn't get to zing the zoo shots for DNMC during voting because they couldn't tell the difference, or b) aggravated about the fact that some of the zoo shots placed more highly than their own shot, and c) should DNMC always be cause for questioning the ethics of challenge entrants.
So far, I see a lot of "but...it didn't meet the challenge!" which we know from the rules is not cause for DQ. I'm just curious about why not meeting the challenge is such a big deal here, in this challenge.
Can anyone enlighten me? |
Simply put, people are different. Some are rule sticklers to rules and semantics, others throw caution to the wind. The problem with this challenge was the description itself was a little amibiguous. Should it be taken lightly or followed strictly. All perception. As long as you challenge your ownself and have fun doing it there really isn't other else. The rest is just a bunch of us geese gaggling. |
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01/30/2007 08:21:53 PM · #125 |
First, I want to mention that this exact point was debated quite a bit before the challenge closed:
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=528240&page=1#3263970
Second, I was surprised that "tricks" were allowed and even celebrated when I first came to DPC. I've since accepted that's the way it works. I still don't think it's right, given the way the challenges are described.
Third, I hear a lot of people one both sides saying "you're wrong and you can't force your interpretation on me" while then denying that the other side has any validity to its way of thinking.
But the real source of frustration isn't a debate over how things should go, it's a difference in understanding how the whole thing is set up in the first place.
My suggestion is to simply add the phrase "that appears to" or something equivalent to every challenge description.
That way, everyone knows the playing field, as opposed to some taking it one way and others taking it another.
Thus:
For the purpose of this challenge, take a shot of something that appears to be wildlife. "Wildlife" should be considered non-domesticated mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians living in a natural environment. Now that you know what to photograph, take your best shot!
and
Take a picture that apppears to be between 4:00 and 5:00 AM. This challenge may also be known as the "I can't believe I got up this early to take a photograph for a ^$&@*# challenge" challenge.
and
Take a picture that appears to be taken at night.
etc.
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