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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Is DPC turning in to Snapshot City
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 09/25/2003 09:53:22 AM · #26
I misread the "rules" when I joined so I have left comments from 20% up and I vote on all in every challenge. My new theory (born about 5 minutes ago in frustration) is that my comments are now going to ask "how" in the hopes that I can get some instruction that way. I figure it's only fair to give warning and I realize that most won't bother to answer but I figure it's worth a shot (pun intended).
 09/25/2003 09:58:14 AM · #27
Look in the upper left corner of your screen. What does it say? Under the big 'dpchallenge'. "a digital photography contest" (the bolding is mine).

A quick scan through entries of other challenges would reveal that the standard for doing well is quite high, would it not?

At that point, wouldn't it be logical to compare one's shot to this standard and evaluate if the shot was competitive on any level and therefore worth submitting?

And if not, wouldn't the burden be on that person to figure out, whether by asking questions, reading, taking classes, or otherwise, how to improve the potential of the image?

People say "oh well, this site is about learning, so I'm going to throw in my pic i spent 10 seconds on because then I'll 'learn'. " But it doesn't work that way. There is SO MUCH MORE to learning photography than getting 5 comments on your snapshot.

We can't throw the whole burden of your learning curve onto our poor voters. There's 200-300 shots to vote and comment on. It's numbing and crushing to the spirit when you have to wade through bad shot after bad shot.

Make some effort on your own. This site, like other things, best helps those who help themselves. Do some critical self-evaluations before you submit. Look at other images that did well. Ask yourself if the shot is truly ready.

And if you want feedback, you dont have to enter the challenge. Post it in a photography discussion forum. Ask around online, check with friends.

The more lame entries we get the less feedback there's going to be for anyone.

09/25/2003 10:09:32 AM · #28
Bravo, well said magnetic999
 09/25/2003 10:13:31 AM · #29
I understand all of this but I also know that there are assumptions made about camera capabilities and about intent and about the willingness to learn or to teach. If one posts to a thread the feedback depends upon who happens to be online at the time etc., whereas if you conquer a difficult hurdle for yourself it seems worth it to enter a challenge and hope for a broader range of feedback.
09/25/2003 10:19:27 AM · #30
I hope all you anti-shapshot commentors rated the enteries in the recent 'sport' challenge the same way you are rating this challenge... you might notice that 1st 2nd and 3rd places in the 'sport' challenge are shapshots.... since I see less low ratings on the winning entry there than I do negative commentors in this forum, do I detect hypocrisy in the ratings of all these anti-snapshot commentors in the 'sport' challenge ????
 09/25/2003 10:22:10 AM · #31
This thread seems to be paralleling the "Kids and Pets" thread. Here's a copy of what I posted there:

Originally posted by magnetic9999:
I say "Bravo!" to John for being brave enough to start and follow through with this thread...

The more lame entries we get the less feedback there's going to be for anyone.

But your "lame" might be someone else's best-to-date. Winners get ones. Last-place entries get tens.

I'm disturbed at the whole turn these threads are taking ... to throw out general criticism of the quality of the photos is to tar everyone with the same brush, and is likely to induce anxiety and resentment in a lot of folks.

"OMG -- I submitted a shot with a
() kid
() cat
() flower
() ____
in it, is he talking about MY photo?"

I think if you want to post a thread saying "I think this photo was lame and the photographer shouldn't have submitted it because ..." it might be constructive and educational, but saying "there's too many snapshots; people should discipline themselves" is too broadly pejorative to be useful criticism.

You are welcome to pick any of my lame photos (large choice, I'm sure) and offer up reasons I shouldn't have submitted it, and we can debate the pro and con views of that. To just offer up the scattergun comment "too many snapshots" -- when they can't even be defined (no consensus anyway) -- I think is ultimately destructive, and is more likely to induce resentment than enthusiasm for photographic education.

Unless your purpose is only to vent your own unhappiness with having to look at all those worthless pictures, as opposed to helping site photographers improve as a whole -- then just rant away (like me).
 09/25/2003 10:40:10 AM · #32
Do you remember the thread on the nature of groups a while back. Well it seem s to me that this is group evolution at play I am entitled to my opinion as everyone else is to theirs. Don't have a problem with it, the whole point is to dicuss and if discussion always has to be congenial to all parties what's the point? I haven't slammed anyone in particular, for one thing that is destructive and I can't cause I don't no who's photo is who's.

If you open a site up to the general global population then expect some debate and ranting, gives a chance for all the do gooders to have a say and all the evil Darth Vaders to come out to play.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 10:41:37.
 09/25/2003 10:53:11 AM · #33
That's a great point muckpond.. People REALLY need to do some more self editing. Ya don't have to submit on EVERY contest..

Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by Riggs:
I would rather look at a good snapshot then a bad and fake set up shot any day.


I agree, but the key phrase is "good snapshot."

People who submit just to submit should think before they upload a photo, IMHO.
 09/25/2003 11:28:59 AM · #34
notice i didnt say snapshot, notice i didnt specify any particular specific subject matter.

my only point was 'take a look at what you're submitting before you submit it and then take a look at what has done well' ..

Open them up side by side on the screen if you have to! :)

if you do this, i a) guarantee you there won't be any surprises if you don't do well.

b) might teach you more about photographs than 3 short comments ever could and

c) might make you reconsider submitting to a contest until you have something that might do well ..


09/25/2003 11:39:09 AM · #35
I agree.
I think there should be some members votes and also some people of the critique club votes. The average would be more real.
I also agree with the "too many cats and dogs photos"
We are photograhers . Lets try to do a little more!!!
Lets try to learn on this page, to learn from our results and to learn from others excellent photos.
 09/25/2003 11:39:12 AM · #36
To get an idea what does well in the challenges here on this site, you can browse DPC Highest Rated Pics
 09/25/2003 12:21:07 PM · #37
perhaps my background in journalism influences me, but my greatest desire as a photographer is to capture moments in time that speak to people by reflecting, whether creatively, emotionally, or symbolically, aspects of the experience of living--to have the responsive "eye" and photographic skill to freeze such moments before they roll into other moments as life does.

i realized early on that the dpc site is often more rewarding for set-up shots. and i realize that learning to create such sometimes amazing photos would render me much more technically proficient. i have felt "challenged" to do so for some contests, but i also made a conscious decision not to lose my main, personal reason for taking photographs, which would seem, from this discussion, to be defined as snapshots.

any thoughts?
 09/25/2003 12:29:32 PM · #38
Pupparazzo

This is called photojournalism or perhaps documentary photography and requires some skill and understanding of how to get the most of those fleeting moments, I would consider snapshots from this threads point of view to be simply point and click simply to have something for the challenge.

There are moments and then there are moments!
 09/25/2003 12:31:46 PM · #39
I don't know that dpc is relly more rewarding for set-up shots. Look at the recently DQed shot from burningman - it was beautiful, real world shot. Its just that those shots dont come along every week, on theme, within the bounds of the challenge. I expect that a good, real shot will always beat a good setup shot, its just that the former is much less controlled and harder to find with only a week and a theme.

The problem is that there is a tendency to not be able to critically evaulate your own pictures, thinking they are actually better than they are then blaming everyone else for pointing that out. It is particularly hard the more emotionally attached you are to the subject - hence this cat's/ kids thing. The same with flowers - they are obviously beautiful - but you need to really think about what the essence of that beauty is, then try to bring it out in your photographs. The tendency is to say - wow, x is a great shot - and then take it from exactly where you are, at eye level, landscape orientation, pointing down at it - and the result usually doesn't capture what you originally saw in the scene.

I think the underlying thought is a key part missing in a snapshot - you saw something, you took a picture - but you didn't spend the time to try to distill the purpose of the image and try to enforce that.
 09/25/2003 12:32:23 PM · #40
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by Chez:
Jeez everyone takes a snapshot every once in awhile, I suppose it is just the nature of this site, those that put more time in wish to get more time out of it, and voting for snapedy snapshots is frustrating.

My personal favourite 'snapshot':

Soft Sun (Contains nudity.)

37 mins.. That's what I call snappy! Quality always shines through.

Not seen much Dr Jones recently.. Obviously off on Barbados.. again.. :-)


Don't cheat! Dr. Jones does not take snapshots! He is an artist!
09/25/2003 12:38:41 PM · #41
Originally posted by scab-lab:
To get an idea what does well in the challenges here on this site, you can browse DPC Highest Rated Pics


With all respects for Langdon and his beautiful photo on top of the list, it does not look good that the most rated pic belongs to the site creator, especially if the site grows a lot numerically.

Also, and because belongs to the same concept, whoever has power of control over the website (administrators? site council?) should not partecipate to challenges to avoid conflicts of interest.

I don't think it is a scandal or offensive to say that.
It is about fairness and maturity.

Then if DPC wants to stay at "college" level, it will, fo course.
 09/25/2003 12:46:44 PM · #42
Originally posted by glimpses:

Also, and because belongs to the same concept, whoever has power of control over the website (administrators? site council?) should not partecipate to challenges to avoid conflicts of interest.

I don't think it is a scandal or offensive to say that.
It is about fairness and maturity.

Then if DPC wants to stay at "college" level, it will, fo course.


How can there be any conflict of interest when there is nothing at stake?

09/25/2003 12:56:45 PM · #43
I can assure you that this is not a set-up shot :)



Message edited by author 2003-09-25 12:57:13.
 09/25/2003 01:06:19 PM · #44
Originally posted by amsmyth:
I wish that someone could define snapshot in a meaningful way...given my score I imagine my entry is being looked at as just that. In acutality I made two trip to the site, fought the light problems with the knowledge and equipment at hand, and if people were to leave comments telling me how to have overcome obstacles rather than making assumptions it would have been helpful. I find myself wondering what the criteria really are - especially since we have the ability to private message and ask about intent and problems.


A snapshot, to me and likely most of us, is a casual or incidental photo taken spontaneously, without deliberate forethought and often without or very minimal post-processing, usually capturing a moment in time of personal interest and with a lighter view of things.

Naturally, the subjects of such shots, more often than not, would tend to pertain to kids, family, pets, vacations, really, anything physically or emotionally close to the photographer, but don't have to be to be considered snapshots.

The main and most reasonable objection to the merit of the genre is the fact that it lends itself all too easily to a perception of clichée. In other words, the choice of subject along with a particular stance to it, should result in an image of particular and universal appeal, as opposed to one of general and predominantly personal value, if it is to be regarded as an artistic contribution to what is there already.

A snapshot meeting or exceeding these criteria, can and should, IMO, be considered a classic genre of photography, even if taken with a 1950's Brownie box camera. ;-)
 09/25/2003 01:16:18 PM · #45
Originally posted by glimpses:
With all respects for Langdon and his beautiful photo on top of the list, it does not look good that the most rated pic belongs to the site creator, especially if the site grows a lot numerically.

This is ridiculous. It's probably through an interest in photography that the site was created - and now those whose idea it is should not participate? Mad.

If you suspect that the site results can be unfairly doctored than you may as well not compete anyway.
 09/25/2003 01:17:18 PM · #46
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by glimpses:

Also, and because belongs to the same concept, whoever has power of control over the website (administrators? site council?) should not partecipate to challenges to avoid conflicts of interest.

I don't think it is a scandal or offensive to say that.
It is about fairness and maturity.

Then if DPC wants to stay at "college" level, it will, fo course.


How can there be any conflict of interest when there is nothing at stake?


Nothing is a big word (and even a much bigger concept) and my knowledge of Physics (and/or Philosophy) is not good enough to tell you if we can have a sample of "Nothing" in this universe or not.
The Occam's Razor in this case would definitely conclude that there must be something.
 09/25/2003 01:22:21 PM · #47
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:

If you suspect that the site results can be unfairly doctored than you may as well not compete anyway.


the site results may or may not be unfairly doctored, that was not the point of my conversation because (both) cases are way too difficult to be proved.

My point was, let's defined behavior in a way that instead of favouring doctored results, makes them difficult to happen but I don't see many catching this point and I am afraid that is due to culture and politics... (and I hate politics!) =)
 09/25/2003 01:25:26 PM · #48
I would consider an average vote cast of 3.88 to be a form of unfair doctoring :)
 09/25/2003 01:34:10 PM · #49
In the very first challenge, where Langdon won, there was only 20 entries. Im no mathematician, but Im betting thats why the score is the highest on the site, it has nothing to do with "doctoring" scores. Again, there is no DPC conspiracy.
09/25/2003 01:39:13 PM · #50
if i could doctor the scores, i certainly wouldn't have a 4.8 in "At Rest".

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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