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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Is DPC turning in to Snapshot City
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09/25/2003 02:52:39 PM · #51
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:


If you really did that then you shouldn't be voting. Some of those animal photos were fantastic. I do agree some were very snapshotish but at the same time some were excellent technically.


oh no i should've explained, yes there were some absolutely amazing animal shots. those i didn't give a low score, but ones that were either off of my tastes, or just one of those, 'i've seen that 10 times before this one' i did. i guess i should've made that more clear. i think there are some absolutely wonderful photographers here (that's a given), i don't really consider myself one of them. mine may seem like snapshots but i've come to realize with most of even snapshots you have to take a closer look.

I'm sorry if anyone was angry by the comment i made last night.. i did not mean to make it sound so mean. I know my images aren't the best, but if someone votes for me, i know it's because they liked it, and i thank them. :)
09/25/2003 02:53:06 PM · #52
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I would consider an average vote cast of 3.88 to be a form of unfair doctoring :)


I appreciate it either if it is an opinion or a joke but, I would have flattered somebody if I have had a different average because I voted for all the pics in the challenges that I scrutinized, none excluded. My average then, it is the overall average of all those pics and it could have been much greater if I would have voted only for the pics I judged positively.

It is lovely to chat with you and I am sure that you are pure like angels. I am not saying that somebody is the devil, I am stating that the devil exists and that's a pretty different matter.

The fact that this is a great website doesn't mean that it cannot become greater. My critics have always been oriented in that sense, nor pointing to doctored scrutinies, which may or may not happen and, if they happen, their causes may well be different from anything has been considered so far (not telling that I know them, I don't even know if they are doctored or not, nor I have an opinion about that).

I am just not happy with the voting system. I find it not satisfying and not only for my averages but especially because votes come without an evident reason whatsoever..

It does look a bit too chaotic to me... nobody commented on my suggestion of a panel of judges but, for instance, I would be very happy if jmsetzler would decide which are the ribbons.

[1] He could not partecipate and there would be a great competitor less
[2] I would know who I have to shot after the competition

=)))

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 14:55:56.
09/25/2003 03:04:14 PM · #53
Nothing like being decisive :)
09/25/2003 03:19:13 PM · #54
Yeah, people should vote by proxy. Assuming I voted at all, I would have (let's say) imagesloyola vote on my behalf. If he wanted to give his vote to jmsetlzer, then he would have imagesloyola's vote and all his proxy votes. Anyone could change their proxy at any time (during voting) and anyone could vote on any or all images (revoking their proxy for those images).

This would surely bring the social and political aspects of the forums up (and down) a notch as people lobby for the proxy ("A proxy for Dale is a proxy against ironic photography").
09/25/2003 03:19:21 PM · #55
Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by Jon Lucas:


If you suspect that the site results can be unfairly doctored than you may as well not compete anyway.


the site results may or may not be unfairly doctored, that was not the point of my conversation because (both) cases are way too difficult to be proved.

My point was, let's defined behavior in a way that instead of favouring doctored results, makes them difficult to happen but I don't see many catching this point and I am afraid that is due to culture and politics... (and I hate politics!) =)


So I think I have this clear :
You want to do away with comments, and do away voting ?

Is there anything you actually like about the site, or would you prefer we just deleted it and started again ?


09/25/2003 03:21:28 PM · #56
Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Yeah, people should vote by proxy. Assuming I voted at all, I would have (let's say) imagesloyola vote on my behalf. If he wanted to give his vote to jmsetlzer, then he would have imagesloyola's vote and all his proxy votes. Anyone could change their proxy at any time (during voting) and anyone could vote on any or all images (revoking their proxy for those images).

This would surely bring the social and political aspects of the forums up (and down) a notch as people lobby for the proxy ("A proxy for Dale is a proxy against ironic photography").



Noooo, nooo, not an electoral college - noooooo noooooooo. Do we all have to get on our horses and ride up to Drew & Lang with our votes too ?
09/25/2003 03:24:49 PM · #57
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by glimpses:

Originally posted by Jon Lucas:


If you suspect that the site results can be unfairly doctored than you may as well not compete anyway.


the site results may or may not be unfairly doctored, that was not the point of my conversation because (both) cases are way too difficult to be proved.

My point was, let's defined behavior in a way that instead of favouring doctored results, makes them difficult to happen but I don't see many catching this point and I am afraid that is due to culture and politics... (and I hate politics!) =)


So I think I have this clear :
You want to do away with comments, and do away voting ?

Is there anything you actually like about the site, or would you prefer we just deleted it and started again ?


Evolution, Gordon.

I liked everything of the site when I first saw it even if, analitycally, I could have perceived some flaws in the process.

After experimenting it, I feel that some features are a limit to its evolution.

But I may well be wrong, after all, we have not matched this conversation against the DPC's Mission Statement (besides, is it published?).

Ultimately, it is just a speculative conversation. I am not dictating to anybody to do all that I say!
I would love to have the power, but it happens just in my dreams. =)
09/25/2003 03:25:48 PM · #58
believe me, glimpses, we all have ideas to improve DPC...

welcome to the club :)



09/25/2003 03:26:37 PM · #59
Mission Statement-ish

DPChallenge was created in January 2002 by two friends, Drew Ungvarsky (drewmedia) and Langdon Oliver (langdon). The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week. The idea quickly took off and became much more in the months that followed.

In December 2002, we released the 2nd version of our site with a number of new features, including concurrent challenges. We also added site membership as a way to support our ever-growing physical and time demands.

To date, 12,432 users have submitted 19,894 photographs to 141 challenges. 8222 photographs have been submitted to 296 portfolios.
09/25/2003 03:29:37 PM · #60
Originally posted by Gordon:

Noooo, nooo, not an electoral college - noooooo noooooooo.

That's not how the electoral college works, except in the obvious landslide conditions. This is a hierarchical representation of the popular vote.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 15:30:07.
09/25/2003 03:31:40 PM · #61
Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Noooo, nooo, not an electoral college - noooooo noooooooo.

That's not how the electoral college works, except in the obvious landslide conditions. This is a hierarchical representation of the popular vote.


Forgive my ignorance, then - but what is an electoral college, if not the hierarchical representation of the popular vote ?
09/25/2003 03:39:01 PM · #62
the idea is to take a photo -w/in a weeks time
relating to a specific subject.

voting should be on the composition of the image
the quality of the exposure, and whether or not it fits the theme of
the challenge - a 'snapshot' could quite likely fit these criteria
and deserve a good vote.

obviously if everyone takes photos of the same thing it is quite boring.
but never-the-less if all the shots are great they all deserve good votes. if you dont like the subject of an image - it doesnt mean its a poor photo.

in my mind part of photography is being creative with what i shoot.
so i try to avoid capturing the obvious subject.

if i cant think of a good idea for a certain theme - i wont enter the challenge 'at rest' for one didnt appeal to me.

there is an awful lot of bickering in these forums.
take as a good a photo as you can - improve with each week in your technique - and conecption - vote on the images you like
be happy there are others who enjoy doing what you do, and that there is a place to congregate with them.

soup

check out the forums at www.actionscript.org - i would like to see the forums moderated and searchable here.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 15:39:45.
09/25/2003 03:51:09 PM · #63
How about an occasional challenge limited only to ribbon winners? This would highlight the top talent here, and give some in the group an occassional reprieve from having to wade through my shots as I learn to use my new camera and develop my skills. Perhaps this has been done before... Tom

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 16:13:05.
09/25/2003 04:03:09 PM · #64
Originally posted by tph1:

How about an occasional challenge limited only to ribbon winners? This would highlight the top talent here, and give the some in the group an occassional reprieve from having to wade through my shots as I learn to use my new camera and develop my skills. Perhaps this has been done before... Tom


There have been a few suggestions for winners challenges or advanced challenges, which usually get decried as being elitist or unfair.
09/25/2003 04:13:45 PM · #65
Ok, so let's be elitist and unfair.


09/25/2003 04:16:00 PM · #66
Originally posted by jcven:

I hope all you anti-shapshot commentors rated the enteries in the recent 'sport' challenge the same way you are rating this challenge... you might notice that 1st 2nd and 3rd places in the 'sport' challenge are shapshots.... since I see less low ratings on the winning entry there than I do negative commentors in this forum, do I detect hypocrisy in the ratings of all these anti-snapshot commentors in the 'sport' challenge ????


Well, since I'm now smeered with the "snapshot" stigma, let me comment...

If I get this right, a snapshot is a shot that you put little or no planning into, spent 3 seconds on shooting, and did little or no post-processing. Is that right?

For "Off the Lip", I spent about 4 hours shooting during the week, over an hour at the time/location where the entered shot was captured. In that hour, I took nearly 40 shots, and probably took 150 or more through the week. I shot from various angles, with various combinations of lenses and filters, and trying to capture different types of action. (One guy kept surfing under the pier, which I tried very hard to capture, but had trouble with lighting from the shadows.)

At the end of the week, I spent at least an hour pouring over the shots I had gotten, deciding on which to use. After narrowing down to about a dozen, I spent an hour or two working with those to see which I could do the most with post-processing, and after deciding on the final shot, spent about a hour or so experimenting with the cropping, lighting, sharpening trying to get the best results.

I received several comments from people that couldn't believe I had gotten that quality of shot from the level of camera I own. Maybe part of that was luck. But a damn big part of it was effort and, at the risk of overstepping my ego, maybe even just a little bit of budding skill.

The thing I hate about this tar-and-feather job being done on all these so-called snapshots is you have no idea how much or how little time the person submitting it put into producing it. The results should be judged on thier merit, not on your perception of effort, for which you have no true evidence on which to judge.

Maybe some of you were born with an SLR hanging around your neck and have shot flawless photos from the age of 3. For the rest of us, becoming decent photographers is a learning process, and taking part in these challenges is a big part of that process. Just because the results look like a snapshot to you, they may be the beginning steps in learning how to improve to someone else.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 16:18:13.
09/25/2003 04:17:34 PM · #67
Originally posted by Gordon:

Forgive my ignorance, then - but what is an electoral college, if not the hierarchical representation of the popular vote ?

Ahh, my apologies. Yes, the electoral college can be aptly described the same way; my inadequate application of words. Still, this particular proxy vote hierarchy is not the same as the electoral college. Can explain in detail why you think it is?
09/25/2003 04:20:54 PM · #68
I would have never put ScottK's photo into a shapshot category. It doesn't fit within my definition of what a snapshot is.
09/25/2003 04:26:37 PM · #69
Hey ScottK. Snapshot or not it is great to look at and that's what counts. Sometimes it takes hours to make a good photo and sometimes you get lucky.

This is my favourite snapshot:



I was in a bus waiting for a red traffic light when in noticed this guy so grabbed my camera and made the photo just before the bus started riding again.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 16:29:08.
09/25/2003 04:29:35 PM · #70
Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Forgive my ignorance, then - but what is an electoral college, if not the hierarchical representation of the popular vote ?

Ahh, my apologies. Yes, the electoral college can be aptly described the same way; my inadequate application of words. Still, this particular proxy vote hierarchy is not the same as the electoral college. Can explain in detail why you think it is?


No, I really am ignorant, I have no real concept of how an electoral college works, other than as a proxy vote hierarchy. But its not like I get a vote anyway, so I haven't bothered to find out more about it. i realise it has some level state wide consolidation within the hierarchy which tends to cause the most heartburn but other than that, it seems like a pretty straight proxy system.

Message edited by author 2003-09-25 16:30:40.
09/25/2003 04:34:33 PM · #71
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by tph1:

How about an occasional challenge limited only to ribbon winners? This would highlight the top talent here, and give the some in the group an occassional reprieve from having to wade through my shots as I learn to use my new camera and develop my skills. Perhaps this has been done before... Tom


There have been a few suggestions for winners challenges or advanced challenges, which usually get decried as being elitist or unfair.

That's awful - unless you include Zeus's (sadly now discontinued) Top Pic[k]s virtual ribbon winners too! ;)
09/25/2003 05:05:59 PM · #72
How about a challenge from which ribbon-winners are excluded, but they're the only ones who get to vote? Then we can try out that judging panel idea instead of the current chaos.
09/25/2003 05:36:23 PM · #73
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I would consider an average vote cast of 3.88 to be a form of unfair doctoring :)


I wouldn't say an average vote cast of 3.88 is unfair doctoring but I certainly would say it is a case of not knowing that the voting goes to 10! Face it if your average vote is a 3.88 you aren't using the system. A 5 should be an average photo and then 6 through 10 should be better than average and 1 to for would be below average. A voting average of 3.88 simply says this person has no idea what 6 through 10 is for and is only voting on a point system of 5.

09/25/2003 05:37:35 PM · #74
I miss Balzak's comments,bring him back! LOL
09/25/2003 05:39:52 PM · #75
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:

A voting average of 3.88 simply says this person has no idea what 6 through 10 is for and is only voting on a point system of 5.

An average of 3.88 means the person likely uses 1 to 7.
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