Spiders as insects - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

09/08/2003 02:19:40 PM · #1

OK folks we aren't all entemologists. We are supposed to be photographers. There for when it comes to deciding what to submit I needed to reference this topic. Here is a link to Dictionary.com:
//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=insect

kavamama

Panasonic DMC-FZ10

09/08/2003 02:34:20 PM · #2

Greetings from a passenger in the same boat! I thought this got sorted out before the voting began. 8-(

myqyl

Nikon D3100

09/08/2003 02:56:47 PM · #3

There will always be people who live to find a way to say something doesn't meet the challenge... Do you really care what they think?

spiderman

Canon EOS-D60

09/08/2003 03:21:38 PM · #4

i can't speak for all school systems around the world, but here in the US the 1st grade (age 6) science curriculum usually includes the study of insects; ie, how to identify true insects

i might need to be an entymologist to ID an insect, but i don't need to be one to tell that a spider is NOT an insect

ttreit

Canon EOS-50D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/08/2003 03:29:57 PM · #5

Technically spiders are not insects, but I think (and the dictionary confirms) that they are often lumped together as bugs or insects.

Tomatoes are technically fruit. So are cucumbers, red peppers, and anything else with seeds inside. Peas are legumes. If we had a vegetable challenge I wouldn't mark people down for using peppers and peas because commonly they are lumped in with vegetables. If someone says they are bringing a fruit salad I don't expect a tomato, pepper, cucumber salad. To make matters more confusing legally (in the US at least) tomatoes are vegetables as ruled in 1893 by the United States Supreme Court.

The point of this is that language is fluid and ever evolving. Commonly spiders are considered insects, just as red peppers are considered vegetables. It isn't technically correct but it's reasonable to think a person would submit a spider shot to an insect challenge. It is not reasonable to think that a person should submit a picture of their dog for an insect challenge.

So yes you can choose to be very very literal if you want to. I tend to be a stickler that people should meet the challenge and my voting reflects that. But to say that spiders shouldn't count as insects for the purposes of the challenge seems to go to the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

Message edited by author 2003-09-08 15:35:26.

spiderman

Canon EOS-D60

09/08/2003 03:51:31 PM · #6

Originally posted by myqyl:

There will always be people who live to find a way to say something doesn't meet the challenge...

likewise, there will always be people who live to tell others why rules that should apply to everyone do not apply to themselves

Originally posted by myqyl:

Do you really care what they think?

yes, because they're usually in an elected office (choose your party)

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/08/2003 04:01:22 PM · #7

So what are you going to do?
Give avery spider shot 1 ,with the comment "doesn't meet the challenge"!?
You people will always find a reason to put someones photo down,just get a life and enjoy the game,for all ordinary citizens spiders are yucky bugs or insects,not a birds!

Message edited by author 2003-09-08 16:01:46.

kavamama

Panasonic DMC-FZ10

09/08/2003 04:03:52 PM · #8

Please, Mr. Spiderman, continue. My score has risen a whole point since your first post! Thanks, I won't turn down a pity vote.

As to learning this stuff in school, I also learned to use the dictionary.

vtruan

Nikon D5100

Tamron AF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon

09/08/2003 04:14:54 PM · #9

I gave all spiders an automatic 1. Insects are insects and spiders are spiders. Come on we all know the difference. This is a challenge, not a feel good go ahead shoot what you want challenge. We're supposed to research our shots for the challenge and shoot it within the challenge subject for the week. If you have access to the internet and can't figure out a spider, you deserve a 1 in my opinion. I hated to do it since there were some nice spiders, but the subject was insect.

kostia

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

09/08/2003 04:15:24 PM · #10

For what it's worth (a lot, to me), //www.m-w.com is a far better dictionary than dictionary.com is. Far better.

In paper, American Heritage is better still, though its online persona (on Yahoo) isn't as good as Merriam-Webster's.

Had the challenge been called "Bugs" or "Creepy Crawlies," then spiders, other arachnids, and arthropods would be included in the title. But "Insects" is a technical term. Personally, I'm voting as if the challenge *were* called "Bugs." But it's not everyone's duty to do that.

If the challenge were called "Fish" and someone submitted a dolphin or a whale, we'd be having the same argument, and I think it would go the other way.

ttreit

Canon EOS-50D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/08/2003 04:17:18 PM · #11

Except that I don't know anyone who calls whales or dolphins fish, but I know a lot of people who call spiders insects...

spiderman

Canon EOS-D60

09/08/2003 04:20:15 PM · #12

Originally posted by pitsaman:

You people will always find a reason to put someones photo down

what "you people" are you referring to? Californians? Programmers? Golfers?

Originally posted by pitsaman:

just get a life and enjoy the game

the game would be far more enjoyable without all the semantic wrestling --- 1 does not equal 2, red does not equal green, arachnid does not equal insect - no semantics, just facts

Originally posted by pitsaman:

for all ordinary citizens spiders are yucky bugs or insects

aha! clarification of the 1st point --- "you people" is the "extraordinary" group who understands the difference, as opposed to the "ordinary" folk who don't

vtruan

Nikon D5100

Tamron AF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon

09/08/2003 04:27:27 PM · #13

Right on Spiderman...Even my five year old knows what a spider is...

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/08/2003 04:37:55 PM · #14

Originally posted by vtruan:

Right on Spiderman...Even my five year old knows what a spider is...

Smart like daddy!

HEHE

pitsaman

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/08/2003 04:40:09 PM · #15

Most of "you people" refers to equipment abusers!

myqyl

Nikon D3100

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

09/08/2003 04:52:14 PM · #16

Well, I guess I'll vote every spider shot a 10 to offset the 1s they are getting from "you people" :)

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...

I'm sure glad I decided there are too many literal minded anal folks for me to bother shotting my shoot of a McDonald's cup flying out of a car titled "litter bug"...

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/08/2003 04:57:42 PM · #17

I thought of it this way:

If I'm the editor for Insect Monthly and I say "get intimate with an insect" and someone brings me a spider, I'm firing them on the spot. G'bye. Seeya. If you don't meet the challenge, IMO, why not submit to PSig instead? Or myphotocontest.tk?

I may not give them all 1's...but I'll be very leery about giving higher than a 3 to them. 3's are "perfect" spider shots. They barely get to "Start."

M

09/08/2003 05:34:20 PM · #18

Just to reiterate(see Dictionary.com for spelling) its a photo challenge. not a nature course! Thanks in advance for that 10 Mygyl! Oh btw how do you entemologists rate the catapillars? They are Butterfly/Moth larva. Non segmented, more than 6 legs.

09/08/2003 05:35:56 PM · #19

Oh, and how about the moths titled as butterflies? Lotsa 1's in this challenge.

xhoss

Kodak DX6490

09/08/2003 05:38:23 PM · #20

its a shame that your right about your mcdonalds shot myqyl...i would have loved to see it...GREAT idea...but you're right...if you think out of the box you don't do so well :(

ScottK

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/08/2003 05:41:45 PM · #21

On far more practical grounds.... I got a couple shots of spiders, ants and a fly, but figured those would be very common subjects. I lucked into another bug (still don't even know what it is). But there are a aweful lot of spider shots, and that's with a lot of people aware that spiders either didn't fit or wouldn't be accepted by some voters. (and like Van, it was my daughter who first pointed out to me that spiders aren't insects, not "you people" at DPC!) So, just from the standpoint of knowing there would be a lot of spiders, it wasn't a good choice.

Beyond that, FWIW, of the dozen or more spider shots, only one or two really were even very good. Several were just OK, and most were mediocre (sorry, don't mean to step on anyone, that's just my reaction).

So if you have a low scoring spider shot, it may not just be the definition that's causing the low score....

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

09/08/2003 05:43:55 PM · #22

Originally posted by kostia:

This post really confused me - merriam webster also bundles spiders and centipeds in under the definition of 'insect' in the most general sense of the word. Yes, it also does give the scientifically more precise definition. But it would seem to be bad form to post links to support a point of view, when they directly contradict your point. Or am I just missing something obvious here ?

09/08/2003 05:48:16 PM · #23

Btw Maverick I quit. and keep my last paycheck and the prize money too!
My shot is doing a low average score and I am quite impressed with myself for shooting it with a low end point and shoot. Sorry if I opened a can of worms here(they aren't insects either). If you care to comment on spider pics enough to tell me they aren't insects could you at least tell me what you think of the photograph? and thanks to those of you who had the manners to do so.

kostia

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

09/08/2003 05:49:04 PM · #24

I wasn't saying Merriam-Webster said anything different. I just think it's a better site than dictionary.com, overall.

Like I said in the first spiders v. insects post, Merriam-Webster is a descriptive dictionary, meaning it defines words the way the populace uses them, not the way they should be used. This sort of discussion demands a prescriptive dictionary, one aimed at teaching the populace how to use words correctly. That's the sort of dictionary American Heritage is.

"Insect" has a colloquial/popular meaning separate from its proper scientific meaning. Like I said, I'm voting on that meaning. I'm not voting things down because they're spiders.

kostia