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09/03/2005 09:00:15 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by swinging_johnson_v1:
Heres a question?
If our Homeland security needs billions of dollars to combat terrorists, how come at the same time the Feds can't prevent major events like the flooding of New Orleans?
Isn't this a ripe time for a terrorist attack?
If we can spend the money for our personal safety around the world, and not take care of the needs of the people that our government is supposed to look after, why are we spending that money?
Granted, there are bad people out there and we need to be protected from. But, isn't part of that protection supposed to be in the well being, and health of our country? |
The former head of the Army Corps of Engineers stated that even if funding had not been cut (going back to Carter) for the levy projects, and all the work had been done to strengthen them as planned, New Orleans would have STILL flooded. People and money can't prevent the flooding of anything when Mother Nature has different plans. |
well said |
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09/03/2005 09:22:58 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by RonB:
On average, 1.6 hurricanes make landfall in the U.S. every year, but last year, Florida alone got hit by four. Should the federal government stage full federal emergency resources before each and every one? |
Once that levee broke, everything changed. It was not your typical hurricane. And, sorry they should have known that and acted promptly.
They did not.
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09/03/2005 10:59:35 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
Originally posted by RonB:
On average, 1.6 hurricanes make landfall in the U.S. every year, but last year, Florida alone got hit by four. Should the federal government stage full federal emergency resources before each and every one? |
Once that levee broke, everything changed. It was not your typical hurricane. And, sorry they should have known that and acted promptly.
They did not. |
You do know, don't you that by law, the federal government may not force themselves on a state until requested by the State authorities. They are empowered to free up FUNDS, but not to mobilize military personnel ( e.g. the National Guard ).
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco says that President Bush had called the night of August 27, urging the state to order evacuation and declaring it a state of emergency. But Blanco didn't federalize the order for National Guard troops to come into the city until after the levee had broken on the 17th street canal. Neither had she set up a command team before the storm hit - with satellite phones and other means of communication between the city and areas outside of the city, in the event that the power grid was knocked out. Inconceivably, the pumps in New Orleans were tied into that same power grid, so when the grid failed, the ability to pump water out of the city also ceased.
While I agree that it's fair to charge that the performance of federal agencies has been inexcusable, the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans are, in my opinion, even more culpable. |
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09/03/2005 11:09:53 PM · #179 |
| There are forces that humble humanity. The main preoccupation should be with aid in survival yet we humans take delight in pointing fingers to enforce our political point of view. My, or my: if I were a victim what good does pointing fingers do me? These are major upheavels and who can claim to understand all the facts before the crescendo of disaster wanes. Everything is always easier to appraise in hindsight. Everything can be critized but is this the wisest course for survival? |
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09/04/2005 09:26:55 AM · #180 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Riggs:
Originally posted by RonB:
On average, 1.6 hurricanes make landfall in the U.S. every year, but last year, Florida alone got hit by four. Should the federal government stage full federal emergency resources before each and every one? |
Once that levee broke, everything changed. It was not your typical hurricane. And, sorry they should have known that and acted promptly.
They did not. |
You do know, don't you that by law, the federal government may not force themselves on a state until requested by the State authorities. They are empowered to free up FUNDS, but not to mobilize military personnel ( e.g. the National Guard ).
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco says that President Bush had called the night of August 27, urging the state to order evacuation and declaring it a state of emergency. But Blanco didn't federalize the order for National Guard troops to come into the city until after the levee had broken on the 17th street canal. Neither had she set up a command team before the storm hit - with satellite phones and other means of communication between the city and areas outside of the city, in the event that the power grid was knocked out. Inconceivably, the pumps in New Orleans were tied into that same power grid, so when the grid failed, the ability to pump water out of the city also ceased.
While I agree that it's fair to charge that the performance of federal agencies has been inexcusable, the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans are, in my opinion, even more culpable. |
That's because you always believe the Bush Administration, Ron, despite being shown their constant record of bald-faced lying. To wit:
Here is the letter from the Louisiana Governor's office to George Bush asking for Federal Assistance two days BEFORE the hurricane hit.
//gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf
And, BTW, that levee broke because funding for its repair was eliminated by BushCo, despite protests predicting the exact consequences recently seen.
So, Bush cuts funding for FEMA, gives the money the rich in tax cuts, watches as New Orleans is devastated, plays guitar while children are dying, and than blames someone else.
No, I forgot - he lies some more - with two fake photo opportunities:
Here Bush has repairs faked at the very levee you mention for his photo op - eyewitness account from the Lo. U.S. Senator!:
//www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952
And here, truly disgusting - Bush has a photo op at a "feeding station", which was actually torn down after he left, with the destitute left hungry(!)
It took German News to report this, as your (supposedly liberal) CNN didn't mention it.
//www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007042.php
One last lie for dessert:
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
Bush - Sept 1, 2005 |
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09/04/2005 09:35:05 AM · #181 |
Originally posted by TLL061:
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by swinging_johnson_v1:
Heres a question?
If our Homeland security needs billions of dollars to combat terrorists, how come at the same time the Feds can't prevent major events like the flooding of New Orleans?
Isn't this a ripe time for a terrorist attack?
If we can spend the money for our personal safety around the world, and not take care of the needs of the people that our government is supposed to look after, why are we spending that money?
Granted, there are bad people out there and we need to be protected from. But, isn't part of that protection supposed to be in the well being, and health of our country? |
The former head of the Army Corps of Engineers stated that even if funding had not been cut (going back to Carter) for the levy projects, and all the work had been done to strengthen them as planned, New Orleans would have STILL flooded. People and money can't prevent the flooding of anything when Mother Nature has different plans. |
well said |
Unless he lied about it.
People build levees to hold back water, and they designed them to withstand a twenty-foot storm surge in N.O., did they not? The whole point was to prevent disaster from a hurricane.
People have been screaming about the need for the repair of those levies for years now, but all BushCo did was cut funding for the project. To pay for tax cuts for the rich.
There is a WHOLE LOT of lying going on right now by members of the Bush crew to cover their a$ses in NOLA, and the Army Corps of Engineers appears to be "carrying more water" for the Prez and his band of greedy incompetents. |
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09/04/2005 09:44:34 AM · #182 |
Originally posted by RonB:
It's just another government money machine that is rife with opportunity for fraud, just like Medicare. |
Ah, the siren call of the neocon. A government program that actually helps needy people is ALWAYS just "another government money machine", despite the fact that Medicare operates at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance.
Of course, to the neocon, any program or tax cut that helps BUSINESS is always shrewd investment, right? |
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09/04/2005 12:17:14 PM · #183 |
Great posts gingerbaker. I wasnât aware they asked for help days before the hurricane. That compounds even further the pathetic response from the Fed.
Also, here is a must read article; Chertoff: Katrina scenario did not exist. However, experts for years had warned of threat to New Orleans...
Message edited by author 2005-09-04 12:22:34. |
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09/04/2005 12:27:10 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
That's because you always believe the Bush Administration, Ron, despite being shown their constant record of bald-faced lying.
To wit:
Here is the letter from the Louisiana Governor's office to George Bush asking for Federal Assistance two days BEFORE the hurricane hit.
//gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf |
It is unfortunate that you believe the anti-Bush talking points without doing any research. You post a link in support of your charge, but it is obvious that you did not read it carefully. If you would read it carefully, you would find that it, in fact, supports the point that I made. Here are excerpts from that letter showing what Governor Blanco actually requested ( I have boldfaced the specific requests for emphasis ):
Originally posted by BlancoLetter:
I am specifically requesting Individual Assistance, including the Individual and Household Program (IHP), Disaster Unemployment Assistance, Crisis Counseling, Public Assistance (Category A -G funding at 100%), Small Business Administration (ABA) disaster loans and Direct Federal Assistance (DFA) funding at 100% for the following parishes: Acadia, Ascension, Assumption, Calcasieu, Cameron, East Baton Rouge, East Feliciana, Iberia, Iberville, Jefferson, Jefferson Davis, Lafayette, Lafourche, Livingston, Pointe Coupee, Orleans, Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, St. Helena, St. James, St. John, St. Mary, St. Martin, St. Tammany, Tangipahoa, Terrebonne, Vermilion, Washington, West Baton Rouge, and West Feliciana.
To support the evacuation/sheltering effort, I am also requesting: Individual Assistance, including the Individual and Household Program (IHP), Crisis Counseling, and Public Assistance (Category B) for the following parishes: Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Catahoula, Claiborne, Concordia, Desoto, East Carroll, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, and Winn.
The State Hazard Mitigation Plan (SHMP) was approved by FEMA on April 15, 2005. We are requesting Hazard Mitigation for eligible applicants that have a FEMA Approved Local Hazard Mitigation Plan and the parishes that are approved within the application period for this disaster.
Due to the extraordinary nature of this catastrophic hurricane and based on the anticipated damages in the impacted areas including the New Orleans Metropolitan region, I am requesting an increase of the Federal cost share from 75% to 100% for Individual Assistance, Public Assistance (All Categories), and Direct Federal Assistance. I certify that for this major disaster, the State and local governments will assume the applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.
I request direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.
(a) We do not anticipate State and local government resources to be able to accomplish the volume of debris removal anticipated for this disaster
(b) We are requesting a direct debris removal mission assignment for Hurricane Katrina.
In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety. |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
And, BTW, that levee broke because funding for its repair was eliminated by BushCo, despite protests predicting the exact consequences recently seen. |
Again, you have not done your homework. In september of 2004, the Times-Picayune reported that there was a "growing recognition" that there was a need for more research to determine what NOLA must do to protect itself from a category 4 or 5 hurricane, and quoted Army Corps of Enginner project manager Al Naomi as saying that "That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million". That means that even the STUDY wouldn't have been completed until 2009, let alone construction of a better levee system.
And the "repair" that you maintain was eliminated by BushCo would NOT have been sufficient to stand up to this hurricane, even if funding had been fully available, according to the chief of engineers for the Army Corps of Engineers:
"I don't see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case," said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. "Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place."
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
No, I forgot - he lies some more - with two fake photo opportunities:
Here Bush has repairs faked at the very levee you mention for his photo op - eyewitness account from the Lo. U.S. Senator!:
//www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952 |
Evidence that it was fake? No, I didn't think so.
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
And here, truly disgusting - Bush has a photo op at a "feeding station", which was actually torn down after he left, with the destitute left hungry(!) |
Evidence that the destitute were left hungry? No, I didn't think so.
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
It took German News to report this, as your (supposedly liberal) CNN didn't mention it.
That's because it is political rhetoric, not fact ( not that CNN doesn't do politial rhetoric, but this was beyond even their standards ).
//www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007042.php |
That's because it is just political rhetoric, not fact ( not that CNN doesn't do politial rhetoric, but this was beyond even their standards ).
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
One last lie for dessert:
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
Bush - Sept 1, 2005 |
I have to admit that this was an ignorant thing to say but wouldn't classify it as a lie unless Bush knew as he was saying it that it wasn't true, in which case he has no political savvy at all. But surely, even you have made an ignorant statement or two in your lifetime. |
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09/04/2005 12:51:17 PM · #185 |
From the Homeland Security website:
//www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.
That is saying they recognize they are #1 on the job. The buck stops there. |
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09/04/2005 01:30:03 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I thought that national security was of top concern in the Bush administration, but it appears, that along with other issues going on, it's mere rhetoric. |
You are correct in thinking that NATIONAL security is a top concern in the Bush administration. But you know what? This was a hurricane, not a threat to national security. Sure, it's a national disaster, but it was not a breach of national security. And, even if it were, there is NOTHING that the federal government can do to stop a hurricane. And there is no way that FEMA or any other agency is going to stage tens of thousands of military and other relief workers and all of the resources necessary to support them preceeding every hurricane. On average, 1.6 hurricanes make landfall in the U.S. every year, but last year, Florida alone got hit by four. Should the federal government stage full federal emergency resources before each and every one? |
FEMA is an agency within the Dept of Homeland SECURITY. From FEMA's Strategic Plan for the Year 2003, entitled, "A Nation Prepared:" "Goals: 1. Reduce loss of life and property 2. Minimize suffering and disruption caused by natural disaster.
President Bush declared a state of emergency on August 27th for the NOLA region, 2 days prior to the hurricane hitting land. This in itself activates FEMA to act, especially during disasters, natural or manmade. FEMA has broad power and huge resources to act in many different realms and certainly could have taken the lead in responding in a timely manner to alleviate suffering and reduce mortality, especially when it was clear that the local and state authorities had been overwhelmed.
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09/04/2005 05:48:41 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
People build levees to hold back water, and they designed them to withstand a twenty-foot storm surge in N.O., did they not? |
Not - not a true statement, that is. According to the Army Corps of Engineers,the dirt levees and reinforced concrete flood walls are designed to hold back only an 11 1/2 -foot storm surge, not including waves spilling over the top.
Preliminary estimates are that the Katrina was, indeed, around 20 feet.
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
People have been screaming about the need for the repair of those levies for years now, but all BushCo did was cut funding for the project. To pay for tax cuts for the rich. |
You anti-Bush folks need to get your stories coordinated. According to other anti-Bush liberals, the funds were cut to pay for the war in Iraq.
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
There is a WHOLE LOT of lying going on right now by members of the Bush crew to cover their a$ses in NOLA, and the Army Corps of Engineers appears to be "carrying more water" for the Prez and his band of greedy incompetents. |
Give us the EVIDENCE to back up your allegations, if you can. |
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09/04/2005 05:57:58 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
This is interesting, hadn't seen this before (concerning race and class):
Fox News - Shepard Smith |
Don't believe anything you hear on Fox News. If you think about this report for a minute, you'll realize it must be incorrect. The mayor of New Orleans doesn't control the National Guard. They're not under his command; he therefore could not have instructed them how to carry out their rescue operations.
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09/04/2005 06:14:20 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I thought that national security was of top concern in the Bush administration, but it appears, that along with other issues going on, it's mere rhetoric. |
You are correct in thinking that NATIONAL security is a top concern in the Bush administration. But you know what? This was a hurricane, not a threat to national security. Sure, it's a national disaster, but it was not a breach of national security. And, even if it were, there is NOTHING that the federal government can do to stop a hurricane. And there is no way that FEMA or any other agency is going to stage tens of thousands of military and other relief workers and all of the resources necessary to support them preceeding every hurricane. On average, 1.6 hurricanes make landfall in the U.S. every year, but last year, Florida alone got hit by four. Should the federal government stage full federal emergency resources before each and every one? |
FEMA is an agency within the Dept of Homeland SECURITY. From FEMA's Strategic Plan for the Year 2003, entitled, "A Nation Prepared:" "Goals: 1. Reduce loss of life and property 2. Minimize suffering and disruption caused by natural disaster.
President Bush declared a state of emergency on August 27th for the NOLA region, 2 days prior to the hurricane hitting land. This in itself activates FEMA to act, especially during disasters, natural or manmade. FEMA has broad power and huge resources to act in many different realms and certainly could have taken the lead in responding in a timely manner to alleviate suffering and reduce mortality, especially when it was clear that the local and state authorities had been overwhelmed. |
Olyuzi, it doesn't play into the bash-Bush propaganda, but some folks might actually consider that even FEMA itself was overwhelmed by intensity of the hurricane. According to this CNN articledated Aug 29th, the day of the hurricane, FEMA teams and other emergency teams WERE in place to move in as soon as the storm was over. It could be that they were either insufficient ( based on estimates of the storm track ) or that the staging areas they chose were among the areas that were devastated. I think that it is very premature to judge what level of activity took place before and immediately following the hurricane based solely on the results you see on TV or read in the anti-Bush blogs. |
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09/04/2005 06:27:48 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
This is interesting, hadn't seen this before (concerning race and class):
Fox News - Shepard Smith |
Don't believe anything you hear on Fox News. If you think about this report for a minute, you'll realize it must be incorrect. The mayor of New Orleans doesn't control the National Guard. They're not under his command; he therefore could not have instructed them how to carry out their rescue operations. |
From the official web site of the Army National Guard:here
The National Guard has a unique dual mission that consists of both Federal and State roles. For state missions, the governor, through the state Adjutant General, commands Guard forces. The governor can call the National Guard into action during local or statewide emergencies, such as storms, fires, earthquakes or civil disturbances.
It is quite conceivable, then, that the Mayor of New Orleans was acting under delegation from the Governor to direct the National Guard units in the area.
By the way, before you say "don't believe anything you hear on Fox News" perhaps you should see the REST of Shepard Smith's report. View it here ( note: quicktime movie ).
Message edited by author 2005-09-04 21:12:41. |
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09/04/2005 07:54:05 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by RonB:
You post a link in support of your charge, but it is obvious that you did not read it carefully. If you would read it carefully, you would find that it, in fact, supports the point that I made. . |
Ron, what on Earth are you smoking? The letter does NOT support your story at all. It is exactly as I said it was.
The first paragraph is the Governor asking PRESIDENT BUSH to declare an \"expedited major disaster\" status STARTING on August 28th, in order TO GIVE BUSH A HEADS UP ON LEAD TIME OF TWO DAYS BEFORE THE HURRICANE HIT.
You have bolded quotations as if there is any significance to them - there is not.
And I find it bloody well difficult to understand how you can get past the first paragraph and yet still maintain that the letter is not exactly as I descibed it
Indeed, the Feds had a responsibility to be on the scene without any REQUEST or \"paperwork\", anyway.
From the Dept Of Homeland Security homepage:
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
And, BTW, that levee broke because funding for its repair was eliminated by BushCo, despite protests predicting the exact consequences recently seen |
Again, you have not done your homework. In september of 2004, the Times-Picayune reported that there was a \"growing recognition\" that there was a need for more research to determine what NOLA must do to protect itself from a category 4 or 5 hurricane, and quoted Army Corps of Enginner project manager Al Naomi as saying that \"That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million\". That means that even the STUDY wouldn\'t have been completed until 2009, let alone construction of a better levee system.. |
That\'s because BushCo withdrew funding for the study! :D
However, you do not repond to my point - that Bush defunded money to protect NOLA from a hurricane disaster - described as the number three threat to America.
From Reuters:
Budget cuts delayed New Orleans flood control work
Thu Sep 1, 2005 7:19 PM ET
Printer Friendly | Email Article | Reprints | RSS (Page 1 of 2)
By Andy Sullivan
WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - Bush administration funding cuts forced federal engineers to delay improvements on the levees, floodgates and pumping stations that failed to protect New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina\'s floodwaters, agency documents showed on Thursday.
The former head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the agency that handles the infrastructure of the nation\'s waterways, said the damage in New Orleans probably would have been much less extensive had flood-control efforts been fully funded over the years.
\"Levees would have been higher, levees would have been bigger, there would have been other pumps put in,\" said Mike Parker, a former Mississippi congressman who headed the engineering agency from 2001 to 2002.
\"I\'m not saying it would have been totally alleviated but it would have been less than the damage that we have got now.\"
Since 2001, the Army Corps has requested $496 million for that project but the Bush administration only budgeted $166 million, according to figures provided by the office of Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu.
Another project designed to shore up defenses along Lake Pontchartrain was similarly underfunded, as the administration budgeted $22 million of the $99 million requested by the Corps between 2001 and 2005. Congress boosted spending on that project to $42.5 million, according to Landrieu\'s office.
And the \"repair\" that you maintain was eliminated by BushCo would NOT have been sufficient to stand up to this hurricane, even if funding had been fully available, according to the chief of engineers for the Army Corps of Engineers:
\"I don\'t see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case,\" said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. \"Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place.\".[/quote]
Even if that were true - you make my case for me! Knowing that such a hurricane approached NOLA, Bush should have made SURE that all was being done!!
Instead, he played golf, strummed his guitar, and uttered idiotic plattitudes, asleep at the wheel, just like on 9/11 :(
Nevertheless, the media is \"awash\" with quotations from officials (who don\'t work for BushCo) that IF the needed monies had been provided, the city would have fared much better. And lives, no doubt, would have been saved.
Do I really need to provide them??? Just turn on your TV on a channel not owned by Rupert Murdoch and you can see the video!
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
No, I forgot - he lies some more - with two fake photo opportunities:
Here Bush has repairs faked at the very levee you mention for his photo op - eyewitness account from the Lo. U.S. Senator!:
//www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952 |
Evidence that it was fake? No, I didn\'t think so.. |
Evidence?? What do you need to believe anything heinous against your Emperor, Ron?
This is an EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT BY A U.S. SENATOR!!! Perhaps you are called the Senator a liar?
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
And here, truly disgusting - Bush has a photo op at a \"feeding station\", which was actually torn down after he left, with the destitute left hungry(!) |
Evidence that the destitute were left hungry? No, I didn\'t think so.. |
Course not. All I got for you is a televised news program exposing the fraud. But, it is German.
Find it here (somewhere):
//www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/0/0,1872,1000000,00.html
Considering how frightfully honest BushCo is - can you give me a single reason NOT to believe it?
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
It took German News to report this, as your (supposedly liberal) CNN didn\'t mention it. |
That\'s because it is political rhetoric, not fact ( not that CNN doesn\'t do politial rhetoric, but this was beyond even their standards ).. |
You know what? I trust the German media how to separate \"rhetoric\" from scandal more than I trust you, sorry.
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
One last lie for dessert:
\"I don\'t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.\"
Bush - Sept 1, 2005 |
I have to admit that this was an ignorant thing to say but wouldn\'t classify it as a lie unless Bush knew as he was saying it that it wasn\'t true, in which case he has no political savvy at all. But surely, even you have made an ignorant statement or two in your lifetime. |
Unbelievable. Once again, you need to plead stupendous ignorance for your uberEmporer in the face of yet another bald-face self-serving LIE.
Like, \" I don\'t know Ken Lay\"
or
\"We had no idea they would fly airplanes into buildings\"[sic]
But, as you always want \"evidence\", here is some:
FEMA knew storm\'s potential, Mayfield says
Sunday, 4:44 p.m.
By Mark Schleifstein
Staff writer
Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, said
Sunday that officials with the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security, including FEMA Director Mike Brown and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, listened in on electronic briefings given by his staff in advance of Hurricane Katrina slamming Louisiana and Mississippi and were advised of the stormâs potential deadly effects.
Mayfield said the strength of the storm and the potential disaster it could bring were made clear during both the briefings and in formal advisories, which warned of a storm surge capable of overtopping levees in New Orleans and winds strong enough to blow out windows of high-rise buildings. He said the briefings included information on expected wind speed, storm surge, rainfall and the potential for tornados to accompany the storm as it came ashore.
âWe were briefing them way before landfall,â Mayfield said. âItâs not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped.
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09/04/2005 08:04:56 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
People build levees to hold back water, and they designed them to withstand a twenty-foot storm surge in N.O., did they not? |
Not - not a true statement, that is. According to the Army Corps of Engineers,the dirt levees and reinforced concrete flood walls are designed to hold back only an 11 1/2 -foot storm surge, not including waves spilling over the top.
Preliminary estimates are that the Katrina was, indeed, around 20 feet. |
Beg your pardon.. After watching every expert on TV the day of the event explain how a 20-foot storm surge would just "top-out" the levee system, and that it might be "a matter of inches", I must have got it all wrong!!
Perhaps they meant that a 20-foot storm surge would be abated by the delta into a storm surge that the levees could just barely handle?
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
People have been screaming about the need for the repair of those levies for years now, but all BushCo did was cut funding for the project. To pay for tax cuts for the rich. |
You anti-Bush folks need to get your stories coordinated. According to other anti-Bush liberals, the funds were cut to pay for the war in Iraq. |
Funny stuff there, except that thousands of people have just died needlessly. The tax cuts for the rich are causing the deficit. Expenditures for the Iraq war are not even part of BushCo's budget (!).
Whatever - it is all part and parcel of the Republican Party's strategy of bankrupting our country in order to eliminate government spending that helps PEOPLE, not corporations.
But don't believe my rhetoric and innuendo on this subject - just Google Grover Norquist.
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
There is a WHOLE LOT of lying going on right now by members of the Bush crew to cover their a$ses in NOLA, and the Army Corps of Engineers appears to be "carrying more water" for the Prez and his band of greedy incompetents. |
Give us the EVIDENCE to back up your allegations, if you can. |
Already showed plenty. Nothing more to show those who refuse to see. :( |
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09/04/2005 08:39:59 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Nothing more to show those who refuse to see. :( |
Right you are. But there are still some who view these threads who do NOT "refuse to see" as you do. Perhaps they are not "blinded" by their hatred for the President. It is for their benefit that I respond to your posts, lest they be misled by undisputed liberal rants that are designed to beguile them with unsubstantiated accusations, innuendo, and political propaganda. For example, do you have any evidence at all, like links to articles by reputable journalists or video ( reputable or not ) that can substantiate your charge that Bush played golf at any time between 8/27 and now? If so, please share it with those who "refuse to see". If not, then we must assume that it is just more misleading rhetoric designed to sway the emotions of those who you are trying to "convince" that Bush is the devil. |
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09/04/2005 10:24:51 PM · #194 |
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09/04/2005 10:30:55 PM · #195 |
Or believe that President Bush is not this super evil villian. And that there are real life reasons and situations. And that regardless they'd likely occur.
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09/05/2005 12:56:43 AM · #196 |
| Hmmm ... I just heard that House Speaker Hastert missed the vote on emergency relief funds ... he was attending a (political) fundraiser. |
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09/05/2005 10:30:59 AM · #197 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Hmmm ... I just heard that House Speaker Hastert missed the vote on emergency relief funds ... he was attending a (political) fundraiser. |
Hmmm, indeed. The Associated Press reported that "Few lawmakers trekked to Washington for the brief House debate".
I haven't seen the actual attendance report - that is usually not posted for severl weeks - but would surmise that when the AP says "few", it means that more than a few Democrats were also absent. I would further wager that some of them ( Democrats ) were also involved in political activities outside the Beltway. |
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09/05/2005 10:43:51 AM · #198 |
An interesting article about the roles / responsibilities / and command hierarchy of the National Guard during disasters like that created by Hurricane Katrina. A very good explanation of what happened, when, and why.
Defense Department Briefing on Ongoing National Guard Response to Hurricane Katrina
Some excerpts:
"As long as there's one uniformed police officer in the city of New Orleans, we will send as many National Guard soldiers to augment, support and work in support of that lone law enforcement officer as necessary. So if hypothetically there's only one left, who's in charge? It's still that lone police officer supported by the National Guard in their role as military support to law enforcement."
"Let me correct the record. There were 2,500 National Guardsmen in Mississippi and almost 4,000 National Guardsmen in Louisiana that were sheltered and taken out of the affected area so as soon as the storm passed they could immediately go into the area and start their search and lifesaving work, and stand up their command and control apparatus, and start standing up the vital functions that would be required such as providing food, water, shelter and security for the people of the town. So it was phased in. There was no delay."
"I think the response of the National Guard is nothing less than unbelievably sensational. It's actually better than any planner could ever expect." |
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09/05/2005 10:48:23 AM · #199 |
| As a employee of the Corps of Engineers, we had calls for volunterers prior to the hurricane hitting the gulf areas. I maybe be helping there soon. IMHO, New Orleans shouldn't have expanded through the years into our great wetland/coastal buffers. We may have to rethink rebuilding this great city in the same spot. It will probably happen again, even with a 50' levee. I vote for moving the city to upland, to save us billions of dollars and lives. I think the blame should begin when the city expanded into the coastal marsh and history appears to have proven this many times, in many areas. |
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09/05/2005 10:56:45 AM · #200 |
It's common knowledge that a large portion of New Orleans population don't own cars. Why didn't governments at all levels bring in buses and what have you to get the people out when they ordered everyone else out? Did they expect the poor and sick to walk? Maybe they thought they'd hitch-hike? If it had been a Texas Gulf Coast city things would have been different. I don't think it was anti-black per se, I think it was indifference to the poor.
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