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09/03/2005 10:39:16 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by saracat:
Originally posted by Travis99:
Yeah, I mean it does take a while to organize troops and supplys, and then transport them. But the fact is we should a Military base with troops standing by with food and water and all kinds of supply, Have them waiting just in case somthing happens. That way we can be there in 1 day instead of 5 days. |
Somehow I don't really think the majority of Americans would appreciate having to spend their tax dollars to fund this and keep it going. Not that I think it's a bad idea, I just don't think it would work.
My feelings are that if something like this did get established specifically for natural disasters (or man made ones), nothing disaster-wise would happen for a while, people would get tired of paying for it, demand that it be closed, then a disater would happen, and we'd be right back to where we are now, pointing fingers at politicians and wondering why we're not getting any/enough/timely help. |
We are already paying for this type of service in the billions when our tax dollars go to FEMA. It's a federal agency mandated to handle disasters of all sorts. |
As I said...
:)
But I was actually referring to Travis's statement about creating a permanent military base for this sort of thing, not a government entity stocked (largely) with bureaucrats and scientists. (Not to cast aspersions on FEMA, I'm sure they're doing the *best* they can.)
*edit - friggin typos
Message edited by author 2005-09-03 10:42:26.
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09/03/2005 10:51:59 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by deapee:
India and China are nothing. One bomb pretty much takes care of both of those places. |
omfg.
that's really all i can think of to say. |
Might wanna either add something of use, or stay out of the conversation ;) ... omfg doesn't cut it. |
OMFG! Put's it perfectly and speaks volumes and would be useful if you took a minute to think about it.
I haven't read this thread and might as well put it on "ignore" but I did catch that little part of the exchange.
It's amazing how trite and nearsighted some Americans can be.
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09/03/2005 10:53:46 AM · #153 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
60 foreign countries in total have now offered aid and support for the victims of Katrina, including Cuba and Venezuela.
FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) had listed the three most likely catastrophic events that could possibly hit the US. A terrorist attack on NYC, an earthquake to San Francisco, and a hurricane to New Orleans. This event was not unexpected so why was there such a poor response on the part of the federal government? Where was their urgency in expediting the rescue in a timely manner? Incompetence? They don't believe in these types of government services? Or they just don't give a shit?
If the Bush administration can't get it right when dealing with their own people, then how can we trust them to do it right with other countries and cultures? |
I'm sure that you truly believe that FEMA didn't share it's findings with the State of Louisiana and/or the City of New Orleans - therefore ALL responsibility for the failure to have adequate pre-planning, and rapid response execution can be directed at the Bush Administration, and that blame for the lack of adequate pre-planning and response on the part of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans CANNOT, in any measure, be placed on them ( even though they are MUCH closer, more intimate, and FAR more responsible for the welfare of the people of Louisiana and of New Orleans ). |
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09/03/2005 10:55:37 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by orussell:
And again I have to ask, do you think this matters to those directly affected by this catastrophy? |
No, I don't think it does, neither do I think my post implies that. |
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09/03/2005 10:58:40 AM · #155 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
it's attitudes like that that make me completely ashamed to be an american at times...moreso lately than ever. |
So you're ashamed to be an American because other Americans actually have their own opinions and choose to express them freely? I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions, but to be quite frank, I'm ashamed to call you an American, personally.
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09/03/2005 11:01:36 AM · #156 |
I just *love* how these sorts of events just bring people together!
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09/03/2005 11:06:35 AM · #157 |
Originally posted by deapee:
India and China are nothing. One bomb pretty much takes care of both of those places. |
Originally posted by deapee:
I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions, but to be quite frank, I'm ashamed to call you an American, personally. |
I think the phrase “wow … just wow” sums up my thoughts on this nicely.
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09/03/2005 11:09:22 AM · #158 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by muckpond:
it's attitudes like that that make me completely ashamed to be an american at times...moreso lately than ever. |
So you're ashamed to be an American because other Americans actually have their own opinions and choose to express them freely? I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions, but to be quite frank, I'm ashamed to call you an American, personally. |
He's most likely embarassed the same way I am about your thoughts because they are disturbing. uninformed and so dangerous. You will never understand that though.
I'm not ashamed of the fact that you have a different opinion and I'm very proud of the fact that you can share it freely but it's the content of your opinion that rots away at my pride to be an American. Just an opinion.
Message edited by author 2005-09-03 11:14:42.
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09/03/2005 11:12:27 AM · #159 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by saracat:
Originally posted by Travis99:
Yeah, I mean it does take a while to organize troops and supplys, and then transport them. But the fact is we should a Military base with troops standing by with food and water and all kinds of supply, Have them waiting just in case somthing happens. That way we can be there in 1 day instead of 5 days. |
Somehow I don't really think the majority of Americans would appreciate having to spend their tax dollars to fund this and keep it going. Not that I think it's a bad idea, I just don't think it would work.
My feelings are that if something like this did get established specifically for natural disasters (or man made ones), nothing disaster-wise would happen for a while, people would get tired of paying for it, demand that it be closed, then a disater would happen, and we'd be right back to where we are now, pointing fingers at politicians and wondering why we're not getting any/enough/timely help. |
We are already paying for this type of service in the billions when our tax dollars go to FEMA. It's a federal agency mandated to handle disasters of all sorts. |
They are more equipped to disperse MONEY than real direct action. But that's nothing new. For example:
The Northridge Earthquake happened during the Clinton administration:
After the California Northridge earthquake in 1994, FEMA swung into action (?) by sending thousands of homeowners unsolicited checks of up to $3,450 out of the blue, simply because they lived in zip codes that reportedly had been hard hit. After FEMA's "generosity" was exposed by the Los Angeles Times , FEMA's chief spokesman, Morrie Goodman, denied that any mistakes were made in the big giveaway: "Anyone who says an error was made doesn't know what they are talking about. We received very, very few calls from people who felt they didn't need the aid." Goodman explained the agency's rationale: "We felt, as an agency, it was better to send the checks than to wait until we had inspectors out there," and suggested that recipients spend the money on things such as "crisis counseling."
Forbes reported: "Of those [unsolicited] checks, 6,590 went to families whose homes weren't even damaged enough to be covered. FEMA asked for the money back but a spokesman says the agency can't say how many were returned."
FEMA also permitted many homeowners to double-dip-collect both insurance payments for home damage and a hefty federal grant for the same costs.
And the legacy hasn't changed under the present administration:
Local officials described the damage as minimal, yet more than 19,500 Miami-Dade residents applied to the Federal Emergency Management Agency for help with temporary housing, repairs, medical bills and other expenses they say were brought on by Hurricane Frances. FEMA approved 9,801 of those claims for a total of $21.5 million.
"Where are these people?" asked Annette Barket, spokeswoman for the American Red Cross of Greater Miami and the Keys. "We responded to about 100 calls ... all minimal assistance. There's a huge disparity there."
That's where just SOME of the billions go - and have been going for years, and years. It's just another government money machine that is rife with opportunity for fraud, just like Medicare. |
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09/03/2005 11:14:14 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
60 foreign countries in total have now offered aid and support for the victims of Katrina, including Cuba and Venezuela.
FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) had listed the three most likely catastrophic events that could possibly hit the US. A terrorist attack on NYC, an earthquake to San Francisco, and a hurricane to New Orleans. This event was not unexpected so why was there such a poor response on the part of the federal government? Where was their urgency in expediting the rescue in a timely manner? Incompetence? They don't believe in these types of government services? Or they just don't give a shit?
If the Bush administration can't get it right when dealing with their own people, then how can we trust them to do it right with other countries and cultures? |
I'm sure that you truly believe that FEMA didn't share it's findings with the State of Louisiana and/or the City of New Orleans - therefore ALL responsibility for the failure to have adequate pre-planning, and rapid response execution can be directed at the Bush Administration, and that blame for the lack of adequate pre-planning and response on the part of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans CANNOT, in any measure, be placed on them ( even though they are MUCH closer, more intimate, and FAR more responsible for the welfare of the people of Louisiana and of New Orleans ). |
Very true...the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans did not seem adequately prepared at all for an emergency like this.
Likewise, FEMA has come off looking like a loafing idiot who has no idea what's going on...there are numerous quotes by Mr. Brown that just make you wonder if he has been keeping himself informed as this unfolds. |
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09/03/2005 11:21:00 AM · #161 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
60 foreign countries in total have now offered aid and support for the victims of Katrina, including Cuba and Venezuela.
FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) had listed the three most likely catastrophic events that could possibly hit the US. A terrorist attack on NYC, an earthquake to San Francisco, and a hurricane to New Orleans. This event was not unexpected so why was there such a poor response on the part of the federal government? Where was their urgency in expediting the rescue in a timely manner? Incompetence? They don't believe in these types of government services? Or they just don't give a shit?
If the Bush administration can't get it right when dealing with their own people, then how can we trust them to do it right with other countries and cultures? |
I'm sure that you truly believe that FEMA didn't share it's findings with the State of Louisiana and/or the City of New Orleans - therefore ALL responsibility for the failure to have adequate pre-planning, and rapid response execution can be directed at the Bush Administration, and that blame for the lack of adequate pre-planning and response on the part of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans CANNOT, in any measure, be placed on them ( even though they are MUCH closer, more intimate, and FAR more responsible for the welfare of the people of Louisiana and of New Orleans ). |
Of course local politicians are partly to blame for poor planning, but most liability resides with the federal government and FEMA. No locality can be expected to deal with an emergency of the magnetude such as this on their own, and by comparison, the budgets of local and state emergency agencies are paltry compared to the billions that FEMA receive. They are expected to take a lead in coordinating and managing the response both immediately before and after the disaster struck. There was no urgency on the part of the Bush administration to get things going until way late. In addition, many professionals that had been working for FEMA had left the agency because they didn't like how it was being managed. (Just as with the CIA)
"I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."
James Lee Witt - Former director of FEMA
I thought that national security was of top concern in the Bush administration, but it appears, that along with other issues going on, it's mere rhetoric. |
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09/03/2005 11:21:48 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by muckpond:
it's attitudes like that that make me completely ashamed to be an american at times...moreso lately than ever. |
So you're ashamed to be an American because other Americans actually have their own opinions and choose to express them freely? I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions, but to be quite frank, I'm ashamed to call you an American, personally. |
He's most likely embarassed the same way I am about your thoughts because they are disturbing. uninformed and so dangerous. You will never understand that though.
I'm not ashamed of the fact that you have a different opinion and I'm very proud of the fact that you can share it freely but it's the content of your opinion that rots away at my pride to be an American. Just an opinion. |
I'm surprised that you don't feel the same way as me. I realize people will have different opinions, but being ashamed, or losing pride in being an American because what your fellow Americans think is just absurd, don't you realize this?
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09/03/2005 11:28:45 AM · #163 |
I just saw some footage of Lt. Gen. Honore showing up at the scene and shouting at soldiers to 'get their weapons down'...He was outraged at the attitude of soldiers at the scene treating it like 'martial law' rather than a humanitarian mission.
Very interesting points were made and clearly the NO residents in that part of the city were very happy to see him arrive. |
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09/03/2005 11:31:08 AM · #164 |
I'm NOT a blame America first kind of guy but I do think some Americans are completely ignorant and unsensitive to world view and balance and that is completely dangerous to our existence. Your attitude is a major part of our pain and when the world dances in the wake of our dissasters it's the crushing of your attitude that they are happy about. You're lack of worldly compassion and understanding put's me in danger...as I see it.
America's a great country (one of the best)but we do share blame in our piss poor world view. We do not live in a bubble. Think Ecosystem.
Message edited by author 2005-09-03 12:33:34.
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09/03/2005 11:33:48 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by deapee:
I'm surprised that you don't feel the same way as me. I realize people will have different opinions, but being ashamed, or losing pride in being an American because what your fellow Americans think is just absurd, don't you realize this? |
I think pawdrix is more likely expressing concern that people from countries other than the USA will read your posts and take them as legitimate, majority opinions rather than, in reference to the ones I've quoted earlier in this thread, the pig-ignorant view of a tiny minority. |
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09/03/2005 11:40:14 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by orussell:
And again I have to ask, do you think this matters to those directly affected by this catastrophy? |
No, I don't think it does, neither do I think my post implies that. |
Sorry I wasn't pointing at you. I was just reiterating my point.
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09/03/2005 11:54:20 AM · #167 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
60 foreign countries in total have now offered aid and support for the victims of Katrina, including Cuba and Venezuela.
FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) had listed the three most likely catastrophic events that could possibly hit the US. A terrorist attack on NYC, an earthquake to San Francisco, and a hurricane to New Orleans. This event was not unexpected so why was there such a poor response on the part of the federal government? Where was their urgency in expediting the rescue in a timely manner? Incompetence? They don't believe in these types of government services? Or they just don't give a shit?
If the Bush administration can't get it right when dealing with their own people, then how can we trust them to do it right with other countries and cultures? |
I'm sure that you truly believe that FEMA didn't share it's findings with the State of Louisiana and/or the City of New Orleans - therefore ALL responsibility for the failure to have adequate pre-planning, and rapid response execution can be directed at the Bush Administration, and that blame for the lack of adequate pre-planning and response on the part of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans CANNOT, in any measure, be placed on them ( even though they are MUCH closer, more intimate, and FAR more responsible for the welfare of the people of Louisiana and of New Orleans ). |
Of course local politicians are partly to blame for poor planning, but most liability resides with the federal government and FEMA. No locality can be expected to deal with an emergency of the magnetude such as this on their own, and by comparison, the budgets of local and state emergency agencies are paltry compared to the billions that FEMA receive. They are expected to take a lead in coordinating and managing the response both immediately before and after the disaster struck. There was no urgency on the part of the Bush administration to get things going until way late. In addition, many professionals that had been working for FEMA had left the agency because they didn't like how it was being managed. (Just as with the CIA)
"I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."
James Lee Witt - Former director of FEMA
I thought that national security was of top concern in the Bush administration, but it appears, that along with other issues going on, it's mere rhetoric. |
The following article shows that FEMA was adequately forewarned by former FEMA director Witt, but also points out the glaring failure of local and state authorities, who told the former director's consulting company that THEY were fully capable of dealing with the situation for the first 3 to 5 days and that it was AFTER that time that replenishment was expected from federal and other sources.
The full article is here
NOLA Disaster Plan Outsourced
The private firm charged with developing the New Orleans hurricane disaster plan identified the need for 1,000 shelters and said that they would need to be open 100 days (more than three months!). A press release asserts that "state resources are adequate to operate shelters for the first 3-5 days." After that, the problem was to organize replinishment from federal and other sources. The firm also "developed a transportation plan for getting stranded residents out of harm’s way."
This seven-day emergency planning exercise took place in July 2004, less than two months after IEM, Inc., a Baton Rouge emergency management and homeland security consultant, announced it had secured a $500 million contract to develop "a catastrophic hurricane disaster plan for Southeast Louisiana and the City of New Orleans." One of the partners in the project was former FEMA head James Lee Witt (Presidential Candidate Wesley Clark is Vice Chair of the firm).
According to FEMA Regional Director Ron Castleman, the planning exercise was a success:
Disaster response teams developed action plans in critical areas such as search and rescue, medical care, sheltering, temporary housing, school restoration and debris management. These plans are essential for quick response to a hurricane but will also help in other emergencies.
In the press release announcing the contract, IEM Director of Homeland Security Wayne Thomas stressed the importance of planning:
Given this area’s vulnerability, unique geographic location and elevation, and troubled escape routes, a plan that facilitates a rapid and effective hurricane response and recovery is critical. The IEM team’s approach to catastrophic planning meets the challenges associated with integrating multi-jurisdictional needs and capabilities into an effective plan for addressing catastrophic hurricane strikes, as well as man-made catastrophic events.
After the exericse, Colonel Michael L. Brown, Deputy Director for Emergency Preparedness, Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness said:
Over the next 60 days, we will polish the action plans developed during the Hurricane Pam exercise. We have also determined where to focus our efforts in the future.
Based on the real-world events post-Katrina, it appears that the resulting plan was neither polished nor focused, and that FEMA -- whether at the federal or state level -- was not ready. Was the plan even finalized?
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09/03/2005 11:57:41 AM · #168 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Your attitude is a major part of our pain and when the world dances in the wake of our dissasters it's the crushing of your attitude that they are happy about. You're lack of worldly compassion and understanding put's me in danger...as I see it.
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The crushing of my attitude that they are happy about? My attitude stands strong. When I read articles from other countries about how this hurricane is what America had coming and people celebrating the death of Americans, it fills me with rage toward everyone in this world who is not an American.
Actually, I wish more Americans felt the same way as me. Personally, if I could have been born somewhere other than the US, I wouldn't be upset by that one bit, and I'd hate America just as much as the next guy...but unfortunately, you play the cards you were dealt. I am an American first (by birth), a German second (by nationality). Just like every other American, I obviously owe my existance to another nation.
Quit being cowards though...we are what we are, and we live where we live...we can't help that. But we can stand up for our beliefs and what we think is right. If I just so happen to think that America needs to look out for America, then to hell with you if you call me ignorant or un-informed.
Ignorance is relative only to another's knowledge. In the broad scope of things, we are ALL ignorant and we are all un-informed when our knowledge is compared to someone else's. I base my opinions and beliefs on the information I have been provided, and that of which I have retained, just like every one of you. Quite possibly, you have more information than me...but for you to call me or my beliefs ignorant, is retarded, to put it bluntly. Like I said, if I am ignorant, you are all ignorant, because you have based your opinions and beliefs on the limited information you have available to you, just as I did.
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09/03/2005 12:15:02 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Like I said, if I am ignorant, you are all ignorant, because you have based your opinions and beliefs on the limited information you have available to you, just as I did. |
That's not true, deapee...you've made several uninformed posts here that show that you have not made the effort to obtain the information you have available to you...basic information such as who has offered aid and the amount of power that China and India hold.
Not only have you not made statements based on good information that is readily available to you, but you have actively made statements that are in conflict with information that is readily available to you.
It is up to you to make sure that the statements you make are informed statements. Otherwise you should refrain from making any statements at all until you are sure that what you think you know is true. This has nothing to do with opinion or freedom of speech. |
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09/03/2005 12:20:07 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I thought that national security was of top concern in the Bush administration, but it appears, that along with other issues going on, it's mere rhetoric. |
You are correct in thinking that NATIONAL security is a top concern in the Bush administration. But you know what? This was a hurricane, not a threat to national security. Sure, it's a national disaster, but it was not a breach of national security. And, even if it were, there is NOTHING that the federal government can do to stop a hurricane. And there is no way that FEMA or any other agency is going to stage tens of thousands of military and other relief workers and all of the resources necessary to support them preceeding every hurricane. On average, 1.6 hurricanes make landfall in the U.S. every year, but last year, Florida alone got hit by four. Should the federal government stage full federal emergency resources before each and every one? |
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09/03/2005 12:30:15 PM · #171 |
This is interesting, hadn't seen this before (concerning race and class):
Fox News - Shepard Smith |
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09/03/2005 03:15:44 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
That's not true, deapee...you've made several uninformed posts here that show that you have not made the effort to obtain the information you have available to you...basic information such as who has offered aid and the amount of power that China and India hold.
Not only have you not made statements based on good information that is readily available to you, but you have actively made statements that are in conflict with information that is readily available to you.
It is up to you to make sure that the statements you make are informed statements. Otherwise you should refrain from making any statements at all until you are sure that what you think you know is true. This has nothing to do with opinion or freedom of speech. |
You're right...I choose to ingnore a lot of the information that is readily available to me...and then I choose to post about it and make statements based, in large proportion, on my pre-conceived notions. Don't tell me to not make statements. If I say something that you don't find true, then go ahead, point it out...it just makes me look uninformed in the long-run, no big deal...but don't tell me what to do with my lack of information. I'll make a banner if I want to and hang it on the moon for the whole world to see.
The funniest part of this whole thing is that I KNOW you're just jealous because your camera is garbage ;-)
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09/03/2005 03:57:54 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by deapee:
The funniest part of this whole thing is that I KNOW you're just jealous because your camera is garbage ;-) |
Ha, it is a bit slow...
But in all seriousness, you are allowed to post what you like (including misinformation)...to me it just makes more sense to post truth (or if you're not sure what truth is then ask questions).
There's a danger in preconceived notions, as you must be well aware. If we're going to get through hell like this we should be informed so we can figure out what the problem is and what can be done to solve it (as well as what can be done to prevent it in the future, if anything).
Preconceptions are fine but they must make way for truth...and the only way that can happen is for you to ask questions, listen and think critically.
Message edited by author 2005-09-03 15:58:26. |
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09/03/2005 06:22:13 PM · #174 |
I've been out all day today at the local Red Cross command center, working with families that have been brought in by bus, and the lucky few that drove here in their own cars. Many were bussed in from Reunion Arena, and a few families were folks who drove out of Louisiana and Mississippi on Sunday before the storm. There are black folks, white folks, Hispanic folks, even some Asian folks. Every single person...every family that I've spoken with today...has told me that they seriously doubted aid could have gotten there any faster, and not one negative word was spoken about how things have been handled.
I met a young couple, both 28 years old, with five children in tow...all under the age of 10. They drove out of New Orleans late Sunday night, only packing up their small car with necessities for three days. The young woman looked obviously exhausted, and the children were sort of bedraggled and you could tell they had been cooped up for a while and wanted to run around like normal kids do. They came to the lunch tent, but the young woman refused to eat. The young man was doing most of the talking with the Red Cross personnel, so I knelt down beside the woman to look at her 2-month old baby boy. As I played with him a second, she sort of teared up, so I began talking with her. She said that they had been at the shelter at Reunion Arena, and there, they met a family from Wills Point (a VERY small town about 20 miles from here). The family offered them the use of their cabin, for as long as they needed it, for free. She was overwhelmed with emotion about it. I asked her what she needed...anything for the baby? Anything for the other children? She said, "We have nothing...we left with just a few days worth of clothes and diapers. I'm on the last of his formula. We just used the last of our money for gas to get here. I don't know where to start." I just put my arm around her and told her to tell me what sizes and what kind of formula and to let me help her. After she told me what size diapers and what kind of formula the baby needed, I drove over to one of the churches that is acting as sort of a clearinghouse for goods right now. I couldn't believe HOW MUCH STUFF they had amassed for these refugees. I told one of the ladies at the church what I needed, and within five minutes, the trunk of my car was FULL. I mean I could barely close it. Cases of diapers, several large cans of formula, groceries, toiletries, snacks, bathroom tissue, toys, school supplies, water, juice... you name it, it was there. I drove back to the Red Cross command center and parked next to their car. We packed that car full! When the lady saw me, she came up to me and said, "Please, there might be people here who need some of these baby things more than I do." I thought to myself, who on Earth could need things more than she did right then? She and her husband were both pretty emotional about it. I thought it was the most amazing thing...to see someone go from hopeless to hopeful is truly a gift.
This was one of a hundred families I saw get that same kind of gift already today, and I'm going back out at dinnertime to help some more. Every few minutes, community members were driving up with bags full of toiletries, toys, food, clothing, anything you could think of. I love being part of this community, and I can't wait to tell you more about the fascinating and lovely people I've met today. :)
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09/03/2005 06:49:42 PM · #175 |
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