Bush, USA, Iraq, Hurricane... - DPChallenge Forums

09/06/2005 01:29:13 PM · #251

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by gingerbaker:
And while we are on the subject of LYING - was it not in fact YOU who claimed that the Feds could not send in troops unless requested by state officials - WHICH IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE?

And this was pointed out to you here, but your apology never appeared....

Because a) the pointing out was erroneous in that it pointed only to a declaration by the governor that did NOT request military assistance, and b) I was, and still am, right:

From the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ( highlights mine ):

"Pursuant to the President's authority under Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution, section 331 of Title 10 provides authority to the President to dispatch troops on request of the state's governor or legislature.

The sending of troops is not, however, automatically triggered by the request of a state pursuant to this section. The President must use his own judgment as to whether the situation warrants the use of armed forces.

Traditionally, three conditions have existed before troops have been sent: (1) the actual existence of domestic violence, (2) a statement that the violence is beyond the control of the state authorities, and (3) a proper request from the state governor or legislature.

Sections 332 and 333 of Title 10 provide authority for the President to dispatch troops without State request in order to enforce federal law, prevent obstruction of the execution of federal law, carry out federal court orders or protect civil rights. These provisions overlap to some extent, but both are aimed at violence or insurrection obstructing or interfering with the enforcement of federal laws within a state."

Is this a United Nations document that you are quoting above???
Because if it is, then it also states:
"1 . In time of public emergency which threatens the life of the nation and the existence of which is officially proclaimed, the States Parties to the present Covenant may take measures derogating from their obligations under the present Covenant to the extent strictly required by the exigencies of the situation, provided that such measures are not inconsistent with their other obligations under international law and do not involve discrimination solely on the ground of race, colour, sex, language, religion or social origin."

Further, when the president declares a state of emergency this is almost the equivalent of martial law and the president has sole discretion as to whether to send in FEMA, which takes it's orders from the executive branch.

Also, this argument you make is pretty lame, because what this shows about President Bush is that, at the least, he was not a leader in this case. Do you really think that both the Governor of Louisiana and mayor of New Orleans would have said no to federal help had Bush pushed the issue?

09/06/2005 01:40:34 PM · #252

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Is this a United Nations document that you are quoting above???

A UN document that governs US "State of Emergency" procedures? Huh?

See here

Olyuzi, your arguments make little sense...if the President should override the "State of Emergency" protocol decided upon in a state of emergency, what's the point of those decisions or discussions in the first place?

Remember, I'm non-partisan...just looking to keep the discussion informed.

09/06/2005 01:45:36 PM · #253

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Out of all the pejorative examples I gave of Bush's callous behavior, as he reluctantly came out of his 5-week vacation, you affix on that - ( still moot, BTW) while the crux of the argument, as usual, goes unaddressed.

As anyone with intelligence would agree, the President of the United States is NEVER on "vacation". He is the President all day, every day. The use of that "rhetoric" in an attempt to smear his work ethic is inappropriate.

I tend to think that it does NOT matter when President Bush is on vacation, is in Washington, or in Crawford, as he's ALWAYS on vacation. He is so insulated from the people of this country, and the workings of government, and his advisors want him so. He is merely a figurehead, a puppet for the PR string pullers and that is why while New Orleans "burned" he strummed. They decide his schedule, his meetings, his courses of action and his rhetoric and he cannot divert from their plans no matter what the exigencies of the situation. Bush is inept and indifferent to what goes on around him, but we elected him, not his advisors.

09/06/2005 01:50:05 PM · #254

Again, from an outsider's perspective, I'm always disappointed with the rhetoric in President Bush's words. Even a Bush-supporter must admit that his words couldn't contain less actions if he tried...It seems his comments are almost always empty platitudes and rarely contain a specific course of action or strategy.

rox_rox

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

09/06/2005 02:12:13 PM · #255

Originally posted by louddog:

Yeah, she should be shot for making such a stupid comment!

Even my most hyperbolic thought didn't go that far;) Whew, I'm relieved to discover that I'm not as far "out there" as some people are accused of being.

I'm more interested in trying to understand the thought process behind such a statement.

Mike, thanks for your reasonable interpretation. Your approach seems to lead to more productive discussion, as opposed to inflammatory statements.

Having been both "underpriveledged" and "priveledged" I don't see how the distinction makes a difference when it comes to appreciating hospitality. I interpreted her statement as being out-of-touch with the reality that regardless of what they used to have, most of these people now have nothing. I think I felt defensive at the assumption that losing everything isn't so bad when you don't have as much to lose. It sounds like I might be the only one to have read it that way, so I'll politely bow out of the discussion.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

09/06/2005 02:13:51 PM · #256

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Is this a United Nations document that you are quoting above???

A UN document that governs US "State of Emergency" procedures? Huh?

See here

Olyuzi, your arguments make little sense...if the President should override the "State of Emergency" protocol decided upon in a state of emergency, what's the point of those decisions or discussions in the first place?

Remember, I'm non-partisan...just looking to keep the discussion informed.

Thanks for pointing this out to me, thatcloudthere. I was confused as to what document RonB was quoting (hence, the reason for my repeating question marks) and I could only find the one from the UN.

I would still find it hard to believe that either the governor or mayor would not have requested aid following the storm.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

09/06/2005 02:20:56 PM · #257

Originally posted by greatandsmall:

Originally posted by louddog:

Yeah, she should be shot for making such a stupid comment!

Even my most hyperbolic thought didn't go that far;) Whew, I'm relieved to discover that I'm not as far "out there" as some people are accused of being.

I'm more interested in trying to understand the thought process behind such a statement.

Mike, thanks for your reasonable interpretation. Your approach seems to lead to more productive discussion, as opposed to inflammatory statements.

Having been both "underpriveledged" and "priveledged" I don't see how the distinction makes a difference when it comes to appreciating hospitality. I interpreted her statement as being out-of-touch with the reality that regardless of what they used to have, most of these people now have nothing. I think I felt defensive at the assumption that losing everything isn't so bad when you don't have as much to lose. It sounds like I might be the only one to have read it that way, so I'll politely bow out of the discussion.

I'm not going to guess at what she meant, but having heard her speak in the past I'm pretty sure her intentions are all good. Stick a mirophone in front of my grandma and I bet you'll get even stranger comments.

09/06/2005 02:21:53 PM · #258

Originally posted by louddog:

[rhetoric]So who should we shoot first?[/rhetoric]

Message edited by author 2005-09-06 14:22:16.

elderell

Fujifilm FinePix S5000 Z

09/06/2005 02:36:29 PM · #259

It could always get worse--Brother Neil could come out of hiding to handle the finances of rebuilding N.O.

09/07/2005 09:47:44 AM · #260

PANAMA: 120,000 pounds of bananas.

I titled this above, because to me, this is probably the truest form of graciousness. Panama offers 120,000 lbs of bananas which is probably their main cash crop. I doubt Panama has much more to give. I imagine there only other economic strength is a canal Americans built in their small country many years ago because it was exactly that...."small".

But to all these nations...thank you!

Dozens of nations are offering Hurricane Katrina aid. Some of the offers:

� AUSTRALIA: $8 million to
American Red Cross.

� AUSTRIA: Water pumps, plastic sheets, cots.

� BANGLADESH: $1 million.

� BELGIUM: Medical, logistics, civil engineering and diving teams, pumps, generators.

� BRITAIN: 500,000 ration packs, medical experts, search gear, marine engineers, high-volume pumps.

� CANADA: Three navy ships, coast guard vessel, Sea King helicopters, about 1,000 personnel.

� CHINA: $5 million.

� CUBA: 1,100 doctors.

� CZECH REPUBLIC: Rescue teams, field hospital, pumps, water processing equipment.

� DENMARK: Water purification units.

� DOMINICAN REPUBLIC: Rescue workers, doctors and nurses.

� EL SALVADOR: 100 soldiers, including medical personnel and engineers.

� FRANCE: 300 tents, 980 cots, 60 generators, three water purification units, 30 pumps.

� GERMANY: 70,000 ration packs, medical supplies, vaccination teams, water purification equipment, medical evacuation aircraft.

� GREECE: Two cruise ships to house homeless.

� GUATEMALA: 80 specialists from army, health and interior departments.

� HONDURAS: 134-member medical and search team.

� INDIA: $5 million to American Red Cross, medical teams.

� INDONESIA: 45 doctors and 155 other staff, 10,000 blankets.

� ISRAEL: Doctors, trauma experts, other medical staff, field hospital.

� ITALY: 300 cots, 300 blankets, 600 sheets, pump, first-aid kits, baby food.

� JAPAN: $1 million, tents, blankets, power generators, portable water tanks.

� KOSOVO: $500,000.

� KUWAIT: $500 million worth of oil and other goods.

� LATVIA: Disaster team, financial aid, blankets, bottled water.

� LITHUANIA: Rescue teams, meals, building materials.

� LUXEMBOURG: Two jeeps, 1,000 cots, 2,000 blankets.

� MEXICO: Navy ship with food, amphibious vehicles, helicopters, medical team; 15 army vehicles carrying food, health workers, water-treatment equipment, mobile kitchens.

� THE NETHERLANDS: Three giant water pumps, frigate with water, medicine, helicopters and beds.

� NEW ZEALAND: $1.4 million, search team, victim identification team.

� NICARAGUA: Flooding and sanitation experts.

� NORWAY: Navy divers, 10,000 blankets, unspecified financial aid.

� PAKISTAN: Doctors and paramedics.

� PANAMA: 120,000 pounds of bananas.

� PERU: 80 to 100 doctors.

� THE PHILIPPINES: 25-man relief team.

� PORTUGAL: Loan of 2 percent of strategic oil reserve � 500,000 barrels of oil.

� QATAR: $100 million.

� ROMANIA: Two medical teams.

� RUSSIA: Three transport planes with generators, food, tents, blankets, drinking water, medical supplies.

� SINGAPORE: Three CH-47 transport helicopters and 38 soldiers based in Texas flying supply and airlift missions.

� SLOVAKIA: Water purification gear, cots, water.

� SLOVENIA: Cots, bedding, first aid kits.

� SOUTH KOREA: $30 million, search team, relief supplies.

� SPAIN: Firefighters and equipment, medical staff, tents, cots, blankets, water treatment units, heating equipment, meals, water, generators.

� SRI LANKA: $25,000 to American Red Cross.

� SWEDEN: First aid kits, blankets, meals, generators, plastic sheeting, two water purification units.

� SWITZERLAND: 50 tons of supplies.

� TAIWAN: $2 million.

� THAILAND: At least 60 doctors and nurses, rice.

� URUGUAY: Two mobile water purification units, two tons of powdered milk.

� VENEZUELA: 1 million barrels of gasoline, $5 million in cash, water purification plants, 50 tons of canned food and water.

� UNITED ARAB EMIRATES: Tents, clothing, food, other aid.

CLICK HERE

09/07/2005 09:59:38 AM · #261

Great list, thank you...It's countries like Panama, Honduras, Guatamala, Indonesia, Slovenia etc. that blow me away.

BlackDot

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/07/2005 10:04:04 AM · #262

I did not know Peru HAD 80-100 Doctors.

And the government of my part of the rock we share donates... well, Nothing.

Shamefull.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/07/2005 10:21:51 AM · #263

Originally posted by theSaj:

� KUWAIT: $500 million worth of oil and other goods.

...

� QATAR: $100 million.

...

� VENEZUELA: 1 million barrels of gasoline, $5 million in cash, water purification plants, 50 tons of canned food and water.

That's a lot. There are some clever politics being played out here, I feel (though in a positive fashion).

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 10:22:10.

BlackDot

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/07/2005 10:32:22 AM · #264

� VENEZUELA: 1 million barrels of gasoline

Could be very small barrels.. Pledging is one thing, delivering is another.

09/07/2005 10:34:58 AM · #265

Originally posted by BlackDot:

� VENEZUELA: 1 million barrels of gasoline

Could be very small barrels..

Haha!!! I hope that's a joke!!

On the other hand, they could keep the price of oil at $50/barrel and just keep making the barrels smaller....

09/07/2005 11:12:27 AM · #266

Isn't a barrel in fact a "measurement" akin to a "bushel".

I believe the term barrel in reference to oil is actually a set number of gallons. And seldom is it transported in a barrel. Usually it flows thru a pipeline and/or is carried on a tanker. With such having a measured rate of flow of x number of barrels or a capacity equivalent to x numberof barrels.

What I want to know, is what's the going rate on a "barrel of monkeys"

09/07/2005 11:13:48 AM · #267

Yes, a barrel is a standard measurement...

09/07/2005 11:19:12 AM · #268

So how many monkies in a barrel???

09/07/2005 11:44:29 AM · #269

Originally posted by theSaj:

So how many monkies in a barrel???

Monkies? Would those be little monks? And are they a standard size?

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 11:44:57.

09/07/2005 12:06:48 PM · #270

Well, all of the ones I used to have were the same size...albeit...they were of differing colors. They never moved much...but that was probably cause they were made out of a plastic substance.

;)

09/07/2005 12:27:58 PM · #271

Hours After Hurricane Struck Gulf, FEMA Requested Help
Newly leaked memos are showing that FEMA waited five hours after Hurricane Katrina had struck New Orleans before requesting help to be dispatched to the region. Even then Michael Brown, the director of FEMA - the Federal Emergency
Management Agency - said that the 1,000 Homeland Security employees could take two days to show up at the disaster scene. Brown's memo to Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff politely ended, "Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities." According to the Associated Press, Brown's memo lacked any urgent language besides describing the hurricane as a "near catastrophic event." Brown's memo told employees would be expected to "convey a positive image of disaster operations to government officials, community organizations and the general public." While FEMA took days to send help, tens of thousands of Gulf Coast residents were left without food, water or a safe place to stay. The memo was leaked as criticism of Brown increased. On Tuesday Democratic Senator Ken Salazar joined the growing chorus in calling for Brown's resignation. There are also many, including former President Clinton, calling for an independent investigation into the government's response.

DemocracyNow.org

BlackDot

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/07/2005 12:30:57 PM · #272

Yes, but Tibet is not sending any monks, and the monkeys running the show are a barrel of laughs.

09/07/2005 12:38:26 PM · #273

Olyuzi,

I'll agree that there needs to be a review. But issues are spread out on many levels. If the President had indeed suggested to the governor to begin the evacuation 2 days before the hurricane and she waited 24 hours before ordering it. And then also delayed granting the "Federalization" of the National Guard inside the State of Louisiana then a lot of blame lies there.

Also, much of the blame lies on the mayor who seems to want to run around in front of cameras seeking publicity, laying blame and !@#$% about race when obvious events lead one to question whether the mayor acted responsibly.

A single photo puts doubt into my mind that the mayor utterly failed his responsibilities. When I saw an image showing nearly a 1,000 school buses flooded in water and then statements about how they needed vehicles and support to move everyone. Right there in that photo was probably enough vehicles to move 20,000-40,000 if not more people. Why wasn't it done?

09/07/2005 12:40:40 PM · #274

Navy Pilots Who Rescued Victims Are Reprimanded

"PENSACOLA, Fla., Sept. 6 - Two Navy helicopter pilots and their crews returned from New Orleans on Aug. 30 expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety.

"Instead, their superiors chided the pilots, Lt. David Shand and Lt. Matt Udkow, at a meeting the next morning for rescuing civilians when their assignment that day had been to deliver food and water to military installations along the Gulf Coast."

full story at NY Times.com

Message edited by author 2005-09-07 12:41:29.