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08/30/2005 06:52:55 PM · #26 |
deapee...
I would not be singing another song. I'm a rational being. I know that the most effective and able "rescue" group in our military is the U.S. Coast Guard. They're there..
Why not send every Coast Guard helicopter?
I also know that there are thousands of military units in the U.S. I also know that most are not engineers. So sending a bunch of people trained to kill and tell them to rescue or stop a dam is a tad foolish.
Furthermore, there is currently a food and water limit in the area. To bring in 10,000 soldiers and support them (food, water, sewage) would like add more of a strain then already is and cause more harm then good.
As for the houses near under water....40,000 troops won't make much difference with that one.
So if you can tell me exactly what you need 80,000 troops for, I might oblige you...but there is nothing 80,000 troops could do in New Orleans except cause more problems. Plain and simple.
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08/30/2005 06:53:32 PM · #27 |
| Not to mention the billions of $$ being spent over there,that COULD have gone for relief efforts here at home.... |
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08/30/2005 06:59:45 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
On this I agree with you...and a lot of homes were refinanced so think more like $350,000 mortgage.
I believe FEMA covers a portion (perhaps up to $250,000) but I am not sure.
But yeah, I've found it annoying that I have to pay close to $3 grand in home owner's insurance because I live near the coast but it won't cover damages due to coastal flooding.
So I am charged a small forture to pay off the insurance companies debts thanks to Florida residents and in return I don't get any safety or coverage.
Pretty !@#$% screwed up if you ask me... |
Yes, we sat around and looked for ways to increase your insurance rates - the best way we could come up with was to host 4 hurricanes last year. It was tough, but worth it! |
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08/30/2005 07:00:01 PM · #29 |
elderell...
it's people like you that will be the death of this nation.
IMHO, the biggest mistake we made was pinching our wallets...we shouldn't have balked at $80 billion. We should have been ready to drop $500 billion.
If we can spend billions on a single military aircraft or a fanciful tunnel...we could have easily dropped more to ensure the infrastructure, support, etc.
Especially, as I think in the long run the re-structuring of the middle east (succeed or fail) will determine the outcome of many more lives.
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08/30/2005 07:15:57 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
elderell...
it's people like you that will be the death of this nation.
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Why can't you just disagree with him, why does he have to be the 'death of this nation'?
I am in complete, 100% agreeance with elderell...and in my opinion YOU are the death of this nation. We are in a deficit...we need money for here...why are we wasting it at other places when we need OUR OWN MONEY HERE!?!?!?
And your response is to just spend 6 times the amount of money we're already spending elsewhere? ABSURB
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08/31/2005 07:01:17 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
elderell...
it's people like you that will be the death of this nation.
IMHO, the biggest mistake we made was pinching our wallets...we shouldn't have balked at $80 billion. We should have been ready to drop $500 billion.
If we can spend billions on a single military aircraft or a fanciful tunnel...we could have easily dropped more to ensure the infrastructure, support, etc.
Especially, as I think in the long run the re-structuring of the middle east (succeed or fail) will determine the outcome of many more lives. |
Forgive me for being patriotic,but at this point in time I'm much more concerned about the re-structuring of our own Gulf States area.. |
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08/31/2005 07:21:39 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
IMHO, the biggest mistake we made was pinching our wallets...we shouldn't have balked at $80 billion. We should have been ready to drop $500 billion.
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Sure...Why not...Why should I care-I'm retired...It's you young people who'll spend THE REST OF YOUR LIVES paying down the National Debt.....I guess every year,when you file your W-2s,you think to yourself,"Gee,I'm not paying enough taxes--I wish my Government would waste more money..." |
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08/31/2005 07:51:42 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
This is one event where sending money will actually help...so that is the best way we can help right now.
But please, unlike when the Tsunami struck, don't reallocate your givings. If you want to give to the hurricane victims give it over and above your givings to other worthy charities otherwise your just killing African refugees to save American hurricane victims. |
Very well said.
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08/31/2005 08:02:21 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by Fibre Optix:
My question is where are the corporations? Did'nt the people in Missisipi and Louisiana work hard for them? Why are the billion dollar companies not in the forefront helping to provide food, water and temporary shelters. You know, those emergency tent camps.
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The corporations will be doing all they can,in more ways than you can imagine...Almost 20 years ago(within a week),Hurricane Elena(Cat-3)stalled off the Gulf Coast of Florida..We were in an evacuation zone;had corporate's decision to shut down..A handful of us decided to hunker down,keep operations going as long as we had power,and managed,in about 48 hours straight,to pasteurize about a half-million gallons of water to supply relief efforts...We were NOT in the bottled water business,but our equipment was easily convertable.. |
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08/31/2005 09:03:38 AM · #35 |
everyone must leave new orleans for at least 12 weeks, read more below-
details on clean up, rescue efforts,etc....
govener speaks
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08/31/2005 10:07:19 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
I also know that there are thousands of military units in the U.S. I also know that most are not engineers. So sending a bunch of people trained to kill and tell them to rescue or stop a dam is a tad foolish. |
I believe that, like most modern armies, the US army is almost certainly trained to deal with civilian disaster scenarios, offers multiple skills and is an important resource. No idea whether you still have thousands in the homeland, though the scandal on extension of the terms of service for part time volunteers suggests that there is a certain shortage of units available to serve.
This is tremendously sad news, and I do not want to diminish or question its disastrous impact, but I wonder whether how the disaster will affect US opinion on climate change generally. It seems that the US public opinion can swing quite violently according to events and whether the disaster in question is close enough to home.
I am not sure that the hurricane or its strength can be put down to gloabl warming: it has been indicated that the floods and disasters across Northern Europe are a consequence of a shift in the Atlantic Jet stream, which is currently off kilter. This is a periodic event, for which there is no direct scientific evidential link pointing to climate change. It seems possible to me that Katrina is a product of the same (not seen any moderately objective or scientific considerations of the same).
However, global warming is a factor that has been affecting other places, such as Greenland & arctic (glaciers) and India (flooding), and which the scientific community as a whole is agreed upon as being a real issue. The US government has been the major international force in rejecting its existence. In contrast to the W European press, I understand that there are few major media outlets in the US that have drawn upon global warming as a cause and that political pressure has not been backed by public opinion.
Even though there may be little direct link between the hurricane and global warming, the hurricane is highly newsworthy and an indicator of the kind of weather that is likely to become more common in the next 50 or so years absent moves to reverse trends on energy consumption.
I fully expect the hurricane to be used as "evdence" for global warming. I expect it to be heavily criticised, as the rejectionists to global warming will be able to point out the lack of causality, and the occurrence of similar previous incidents. The question in my mind is whether the presentation by the media will be coloured one way or the other, and whether a doorstop event will change popular US opinion on pollution issues and politicise them.
It is sad that non-US-doorstep events that are linked to global warming (glaciers, Asian flooding) which have caused far greater sufferring have not previously been sufficient to change US policy.
Message edited by author 2005-08-31 10:08:17.
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08/31/2005 10:23:43 AM · #37 |
| In 1995 Congress passed the Southeast Louisana Urban Flood Control project for the purpose of shoring up levees and building pumping stations for events such as this catastrophe. The Times-Picayune newspaper reported that 250 million dollars more work needed to be done on the project, but all the federal funds dried up in 2003, leaving the project uncompleted. Numerous articles since have cited the war in Iraq as the reason for hurricane and flood control funding drying up. President Bush earlier this year proposed funding only 10 million dollars worth of the remaining money needed for completion of the project, a mere fraction. |
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08/31/2005 10:30:07 AM · #38 |
I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not I think there's any connection between the war and lack of National Guard troops to assist in hurricane disaster relief.
I will say that the Pentagon announced that there were over 75% NG troops still available in each state that was directly affected. If this is not true, the chips will eventually fall.
I'll probably stir up a hornet's nest by saying this, but the military forces that were on the scene were diverted from sandbagging the levies because they had to rescue the people who refused to heed MANDATORY EVACUATION ORDERS. As a Floridian who is prepared to evacuate on a moment's notice (and who has done so three times) I am extremely frustrated to watch other people risking their lives in dangerous, and costly efforts to rescue people who were told to leave.
When you live in the hurricane zone, you are constantly reminded to have a hurricane plan and stores of supplies on reserve. It amazes me to hear that people were rescued from their homes wearing housecoats and slippers! While these people were being pulled from thier roofs, the levies were overflowing.
Perhaps we should increase Coast Guard numbers, since they are best trained to rescue people, and are first on the scene?
Message edited by author 2005-08-31 10:31:51.
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08/31/2005 10:34:17 AM · #39 |
So where is the restof the World that most of you talk about? Huh?
Don't give me this CRAP about our troops in Iraq. We are there to protect our home land and our freedom. And to give all the socialist commie pinkos like the ACLU the freedom to say stupid things.
America always is the first to have boots on the ground where there is a disaster anywhere in the world. So WHERE IS THE WORLD WHEN WE HAVE A DISASTER? Anyone know? Huh? OK all you socialists, where is the rest of the world? I'll tell you. No where. They only want our help and they don't want to help anyone else. |
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08/31/2005 11:05:09 AM · #40 |
Are you saying that the US is the only country in the world to give disaster aid to foreign countries? Many countries give aid, and at times, give even more than the US. If you are measuring aid in money, then the average American spends $0.13 cents a day in government aid, where as some Scandanavian countries spend over $1.00 a day in aid.
In addition, along with relief money coming from the US comes requirements for those countries effected by disaster to sign contracts with riders that state that they may only use American companies to rebuild infrastructure.
I don't know where the rest of the world is in helping us with this disater, but it is early yet, not even 48 hours after the hurricane struck. So give them some time in planning and getting their relief together for us.
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08/31/2005 11:15:47 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
The question in my mind is whether the presentation by the media will be coloured one way or the other, and whether a doorstop event will change popular US opinion on pollution issues and politicise them. |
i think you'll find that U.S. popular opinion DOES believe in global warming, for the most part. it's TPTB that keep saying it's not true.
keep in mind -- these are the same people that want to teach intelligent design as an equivalent theory to evolution, with no evidence or even any semi-supported hypotheses as to how it happens. but, i digress...
the gas-guzzling nature of the bulk of American cars is a tremendous problem, yes. BUT there has also been very little movement on the part of auto manufacturers to create fuel-efficient cars that are large enough to duke it out on American roadways. there've been no new regulations to restrict fuel efficiency, and although SUVs have been the vehicle of choice for over a decade, i believe there are only TWO hybrid models of SUV on the market now. why? it's expensive to research them and build them. with no changes in regulated fuel efficiency, and idiots who keep buying the full gas-guzzling versions, there's no incentive to spend that extra money.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
President Bush earlier this year proposed funding only 10 million dollars worth of the remaining money needed for completion of the project, a mere fraction.
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exactly. money that NEEDS to be spent on the U.S. infrastructure is instead being poured into Iraq, whose infrastructure was needlessly destroyed because we didn't have the foresight to realize that they might not want us there.
what about the schools in oregon who had to close 1.5 weeks early last year because they couldn't come up with the extra $10 million in funding they needed to stay open? at the rate we're spending in Iraq, $10 million will fund about 2 hours of our operations there.
Originally posted by gwphoto:
So where is the restof the World that most of you talk about? Huh?
Don't give me this CRAP about our troops in Iraq. We are there to protect our home land and our freedom. And to give all the socialist commie pinkos like the ACLU the freedom to say stupid things.
America always is the first to have boots on the ground where there is a disaster anywhere in the world. So WHERE IS THE WORLD WHEN WE HAVE A DISASTER?
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first of all...i don't see how being in iraq is protecting our land OR our freedom one bit. all we've done is create a new terrorist breeding ground that's going to end up hurting us way more than hussein ever could have.
secondly, have we ever asked for assistance from the rest of the world? i'm sure if we did, countries would line up to help. we're larger and we're are able to absorb these kinds of disasters internally. if we need help, we'll ask for it.
lots of countries immediately offered assistance after september 11th. although we didn't need money or materials, we did need intelligence information and geographic access. NATO nations provided us internal intelligence that allowed us to track down terrorist cells, and some of the former soviet satellite nations allowed us to use airbases in their territory to support the ouster of the Taliban.
other nations DO help us when we need it. it just so happens that we are able to fend for ourselves when most natural disasters occur.
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08/31/2005 11:21:38 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by gwphoto:
So where is the restof the World that most of you talk about? Huh?
Don't give me this CRAP about our troops in Iraq. We are there to protect our home land and our freedom. And to give all the socialist commie pinkos like the ACLU the freedom to say stupid things.
America always is the first to have boots on the ground where there is a disaster anywhere in the world. So WHERE IS THE WORLD WHEN WE HAVE A DISASTER? Anyone know? Huh? OK all you socialists, where is the rest of the world? I'll tell you. No where. They only want our help and they don't want to help anyone else. |
Whoa...A little harsh,aren't we ?? There will be many,many offers of assistance from ALL OVER THE WORLD, when the time is right... |
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08/31/2005 11:31:09 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by gwphoto:
So where is the restof the World that most of you talk about? Huh?
Don't give me this CRAP about our troops in Iraq. We are there to protect our home land and our freedom. And to give all the socialist commie pinkos like the ACLU the freedom to say stupid things.
America always is the first to have boots on the ground where there is a disaster anywhere in the world. So WHERE IS THE WORLD WHEN WE HAVE A DISASTER? Anyone know? Huh? OK all you socialists, where is the rest of the world? I'll tell you. No where. They only want our help and they don't want to help anyone else. |
So what do you want the rest of the world to do ? Are you saying there is not enough money or sufficient expertise in the USA to deal with your disaster? If this is the case then I am sure President Bush will call for help and the rest of the world will be there, as we are in other disaster areas, doing our best (Tsunami, russian submarine rescue, earthquakes in Turkey etc, African droughts).
When you consider that the USA is roughly the size of western Europe, I am surprised you do not have the resources you need outside the disaster area which is relatively small.
Hey thinking about it, we had a town in Cornwall washed away last year in a flash flood that left lots of people being rescued from their rooftops and attics, houses destroyed and very old buildings washed into the sea and last time I heard it was just getting back on its feet a year later. Considering our size and the numbers concerned, that is the same relative disaster. England sorting it out was like one state of the USA sorting out the problem
Why didn't the USA help us?
Because we had the resources and financial backing to sort ourselves out!
Come on, assistance is sent immediately by many countries to any disaster area where it is required and where it is requested but not just automatically to any place regardless.
P
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08/31/2005 11:43:56 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I think it has to do with the war. |
there is no war.. Bush declared that the war ended almost 18 months ago, so the US troops should have left Iraq at least 12 months ago ;)
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08/31/2005 11:50:54 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I think it has to do with the war. |
there is no war.. Bush declared that the war ended almost 18 months ago, so the US troops should have left Iraq at least 12 months ago ;) |
You are a Bozo. Based on what you say, America should have pulled out of Europe in 1947. Guess what lanugage you would be speaking if we had? How about Russian.......... |
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08/31/2005 11:56:14 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by gwphoto:
So where is the restof the World that most of you talk about? Huh?
Don't give me this CRAP about our troops in Iraq. We are there to protect our home land and our freedom. And to give all the socialist commie pinkos like the ACLU the freedom to say stupid things.
America always is the first to have boots on the ground where there is a disaster anywhere in the world. So WHERE IS THE WORLD WHEN WE HAVE A DISASTER? Anyone know? Huh? OK all you socialists, where is the rest of the world? I'll tell you. No where. They only want our help and they don't want to help anyone else. |
while the USA keep messing with other countries when they are not wanted makes other countries not want to help the USA when they need it !
and this was just a storm, not a disaster, learn to build properly and nothing will happen next time a storm comes, the so called disaster is because you build your houses like there is always sun and nice weather, you don't anticipate the bad weather that comes occationally because it would cost a few $ more to build a stronger house.
I live in Iceland and we do not have hurricanes or tsunamis, but we have earthquakes and regular storms, sometimes almost as powerful as your katrina, and NOTHING happens, because we build according to the worst possible weather, and nothing is supposed to happen in the worst possible scenario.
we just stay inside until the storm blows over, and then it's just life as usual ;)
clean up your mess and stop whining about it.
we lost a big part of 2 villages in a avalance a few years ago, it would be like the the state of New York would be lost in an avalance, and the USA didn't offer any help., we had to ask for the assistance from US NAVY helicopters based in Iceland, and barely got that !
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08/31/2005 12:02:39 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
and this was just a storm, not a disaster, learn to build properly and nothing will happen next time a storm comes, the so called disaster is because you build your houses like there is always sun and nice weather, you don't anticipate the bad weather that comes occationally because it would cost a few $ more to build a stronger house. |
i really think this is an unfair and very uninformed opinion. |
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08/31/2005 12:10:56 PM · #48 |
I think what DanSig is saying (harshly) is that it needs to be kept in perspective.
I think it's awful and I feel bad for everyone there but awful things happen. Nobody is talking about the near-1000 people who died in Baghdad today...that too is awful. It's all about perspective. |
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08/31/2005 12:13:07 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by gwphoto:
Originally posted by DanSig:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I think it has to do with the war. |
there is no war.. Bush declared that the war ended almost 18 months ago, so the US troops should have left Iraq at least 12 months ago ;) |
You are a Bozo. Based on what you say, America should have pulled out of Europe in 1947. Guess what lanugage you would be speaking if we had? How about Russian.......... |
Didn't know the russians were going to invade Iceland! When did this happen? Why didn't someone tell me????
The Russians were in no position to move any further forward in 1947 . Would we all be speaking Arabic if the USA hadn't invaded Iraq? Will we all be speaking Arabic if they don't stay there?
P
Message edited by author 2005-08-31 12:14:03.
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08/31/2005 12:23:40 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I think what DanSig is saying (harshly) is that it needs to be kept in perspective. |
perspective, yes. i bristle when some yay-hoo refers to the hurricane as being equivalent to the tsunami. but dansig's words were still quite uninformed.
a few more $ spent would really do nothing in the face of a 20-foot wave being pushed by a 145MPH wind. a few more $ would not do a damned thing to save your possessions if they were under 8 (or 20) feet of water.
this was NOT a "little storm" that just requires a bit of hunkering down. people should have been more prepared, yes, and should have evacuated when possible, yes, but this is far more serious than what is being said.
Message edited by author 2005-08-31 12:30:24. |
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