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10/17/2002 06:05:27 PM · #26 |
This is like anything else in the art world, some won't be able to understand it, some would. I have several comments of people who said they don't get it but i have also other people who said they understood it in my submission. Shrug. At the end, the photographer should not worry about the end "results" rather to seek out his/her own vision, at least that's how I feel. If everyone submits to please the current society's taste in music, arts, photography, then we wouldn't have music by Bach (he was very unpopular in his time), or paintings by Van Gogh. In the end the photographer on here has to decide whether they want to produce something that they themselves may not necessarily like in order to please the audience, OR, to produce something they like. I am in the dillema right now with the next submission. Same composition, etc. two very different images. One i like a lot, very abstract, the other is a normal studio shot with an interesting light. The abstract one will probably get a lower score than teh stuio shot. But in the end, i'll end up submitting the abstract one because that represents what i like :)
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think this challenge is one of the most difficult yet. We are dealing with images that represent ideas rather than images that represent something physical.
Some people, including myself, are having problems seeing the photographer's vision in some of these images.
In the challenge concept, the image needs to 'speak'. If the title does the speaking for the image, and the image can't stand on it's own, I believe that there is some amount of value loss for the photo...
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10/17/2002 06:31:48 PM · #27 |
the thing is ..
if you dont care about scoring well, and you're not barred from submitting any picture you want, then why would you even care what the voters like? just submit your favorite picture, and accept what happens.
if you DO care about scoring well, then just like any other contest, you have take its parameters into account, and work within those. If that means you have to modify your style or approach, then that's the price of trying to win.
if you're upset though that your style isn't AUTOMATICALLY a style that wins on this site without any modification, then you're basically setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment. Venting about it in the forums, as cathartic as that might be (or seem to be), isn't realistically though going to change much.
about the only recourse you have in that case is to start your own photo site and make sure that you spell out in the charter the type of photography/user levels/attitude you want to see there. |
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10/17/2002 06:36:57 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by paganini:
. At the end, the photographer should not worry about the end "results" rather to seek out his/her own vision, at least that's how I feel.
Paganini:
With all due respect, if this is how you truly feel, why do you spend so much time here complaining that your work is misunderstood?
Marsha
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10/17/2002 06:44:32 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
about the only recourse you have in that case is to start your own photo site and make sure that you spell out in the charter the type of photography/user levels/attitude you want to see there.
Perhaps that is the source of the problem. Drew & Langdon never did,
so everyone is still second guessing them... But maybe that is why
they haven't.
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10/17/2002 06:46:26 PM · #30 |
I don't care for the score, but i do care for the creativity factor of the voters/photographers, that's what I am complaining about :)
Originally posted by Marsha:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i]. At the end, the photographer should not worry about the end "results" rather to seek out his/her own vision, at least that's how I feel.
Paganini:
With all due respect, if this is how you truly feel, why do you spend so much time here complaining that your work is misunderstood?
Marsha
[/i]
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10/17/2002 06:47:10 PM · #31 |
i do not think they ever intended or intend to.
and it's not a 'problem'. it's allowing consensus free reign. as free as can be (within pg-13 limits ;) ). .
this site allows true freedom for any photographer.
again, it's about the question "are you playing to win" or "are you playing just to play"?
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
[i]
about the only recourse you have in that case is to start your own photo site and make sure that you spell out in the charter the type of photography/user levels/attitude you want to see there.
Perhaps that is the source of the problem. Drew & Langdon never did,
so everyone is still second guessing them... But maybe that is why
they haven't.
[/i]
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 6:46:24 PM. |
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10/17/2002 06:53:43 PM · #32 |
well, to be honest, there are some very creative and interesting photos being made each week and more often than not, they get much lower scores than the uninteresting ones. Then we get "uninformed" comments about composition, etc. AS IF they know something about it, which they don't. that's a few reason why it annoys me to see that every week.
BTW, i am not the one who started this thread about who's going to win :) I have suggeted a few "subjective" rating systems, because that's what people are using anyway in the numerical scale, whether they rate down a photo because they think it doesn't match the challenge (and a stupid reason for that), or whether they rate it down because they don't like it or don't get it. But whatever, if people would make more comments in the images, that will be more helpful (and leave your name and rating too, because i'd like to know who like it and who doesn't -- it matters to me a hell lot more about who liked it and who don't, then about the overall rating. Sometimes the best advice one can get is to know who to listen to and who to filter out in the comments).
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
the thing is ..
if you dont care about scoring well, and you're not barred from submitting any picture you want, then why would you even care what the voters like? just submit your favorite picture, and accept what happens.
if you DO care about scoring well, then just like any other contest, you have take its parameters into account, and work within those. If that means you have to modify your style or approach, then that's the price of trying to win.
if you're upset though that your style isn't AUTOMATICALLY a style that wins on this site without any modification, then you're basically setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment. Venting about it in the forums, as cathartic as that might be (or seem to be), isn't realistically though going to change much.
about the only recourse you have in that case is to start your own photo site and make sure that you spell out in the charter the type of photography/user levels/attitude you want to see there.
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 6:52:47 PM.
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10/17/2002 06:58:01 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by paganini:
In the end the photographer on here has to decide whether they want to produce something that they themselves may not necessarily like in order to please the audience, OR, to produce something they like.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I can and have and will continue to post photos here that do both.
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10/17/2002 07:01:38 PM · #34 |
Then perhaps your photo reflects what the general audiece taste is like on here if you do that each and every week. And whether that's good or bad is up to you.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i] In the end the photographer on here has to decide whether they want to produce something that they themselves may not necessarily like in order to please the audience, OR, to produce something they like.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I can and have and will continue to post photos here that do both.
[/i]
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10/17/2002 07:05:28 PM · #35 |
hey man, believe me, i often feel the exact same way.
but see the other side of it is that there are MORE people that feel the opposite of us.
that's why those pics that won, did so. not from magic, not because the dpc god likes some certain style more than other. they won from people voting on them who liked them.
so the reality then that you and I have to face is: WE ARE IN THE MINORITY. sad as it may be, that's the way it is. and we can't change it. we can't cancel the vote of all those people who apparently have a different opinion, any more than they can cancel ours.
we're not special just because we think that our taste is the best.
everyone does, but this is like america: it's a democracy and what we're witnessing on the site is consensus in action. complaining doesn't change anything. the only thing we can do is focus on the things that maybe improve the user experience and maybe make the entire process more fair, i.e. writing tutorials, posting voting scales (still dont why we havent done that one yet), educating and informing. maybe it will gradually change maybe it won't, but either way, if one is happy with one's pic and not interested in 'winning' than one should do ok.
this is what it is, for good or bad
Originally posted by paganini:
well, to be honest, there are some very creative and interesting photos being made each week and more often than not, they get much lower scores than the uninteresting ones.
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
the thing is ..
if you dont care about scoring well, and you're not barred from submitting any picture you want, then why would you even care what the voters like? just submit your favorite picture, and accept what happens.
if you DO care about scoring well, then just like any other contest, you have take its parameters into account, and work within those. If that means you have to modify your style or approach, then that's the price of trying to win.
if you're upset though that your style isn't AUTOMATICALLY a style that wins on this site without any modification, then you're basically setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment. Venting about it in the forums, as cathartic as that might be (or seem to be), isn't realistically though going to change much.
about the only recourse you have in that case is to start your own photo site and make sure that you spell out in the charter the type of photography/user levels/attitude you want to see there.
[/i]
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10/17/2002 07:07:23 PM · #36 |
john, i think you fit into the 3rd category i describe above: those who's personal taste apparently does fit well within the demographic of the site.
hence your constistency here. : )
us freaky weirdos gotta go somewhere else :)
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i] In the end the photographer on here has to decide whether they want to produce something that they themselves may not necessarily like in order to please the audience, OR, to produce something they like.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I can and have and will continue to post photos here that do both.
[/i]
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10/17/2002 07:10:44 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
john, i think you fit into the 3rd category i describe above: those who's personal taste apparently does fit well within the demographic of the site.
hence your constistency here. : )
us freaky weirdos gotta go somewhere else :)
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Originally posted by paganini:
[i] In the end the photographer on here has to decide whether they want to produce something that they themselves may not necessarily like in order to please the audience, OR, to produce something they like.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I can and have and will continue to post photos here that do both.
[/i]
[/i]
What's unfortunate about that is that the arts and croissant crowd thinks i'm some sort of panderer... o well... i'm just an amateur. I shoot what feels good and post them if i like them... :)
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10/17/2002 07:12:12 PM · #38 |
That's ok though :) the "average" public also prefers Britney Spears over Bach, Rembrandt over Picasso, Playboy over Michaelangelo. :)
The truth is, i like to know who voted what for a given image. I know a few people on here whose opinion i value and if i can see their "votes" it'll be a lot more helpful.
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
hey man, believe me, i often feel the exact same way.
but see the other side of it is that there are MORE people that feel the opposite of us.
that's why those pics that won, did so. not from magic, not because the dpc god likes some certain style more than other. they won from people voting on them who liked them.
so the reality then that you and I have to face is: WE ARE IN THE MINORITY. sad as it may be, that's the way it is. and we can't change it. we can't cancel the vote of all those people who apparently have a different opinion, any more than they can cancel ours.
[i]we're not special just because we think that our taste is the best.
everyone does, but this is like america: it's a democracy and what we're witnessing on the site is consensus in action. complaining doesn't change anything. the only thing we can do is focus on the things that maybe improve the user experience and maybe make the entire process more fair, i.e. writing tutorials, posting voting scales (still dont why we havent done that one yet), educating and informing. maybe it will gradually change maybe it won't, but either way, if one is happy with one's pic and not interested in 'winning' than one should do ok.
this is what it is, for good or bad
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 7:12:45 PM.
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10/17/2002 07:15:28 PM · #39 |
is that what you think of me? : ( i sure hope not.
dude who gives a flying rat's coochie what some 'crowd' thinks? you happen to have found a niche in which your vision resonates.
enjoy the ride!
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
[i]
What's unfortunate about that is that the arts and croissant crowd thinks i'm some sort of panderer..
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10/17/2002 07:18:04 PM · #40 |
it's true. but you know that.
so why rail?
i know no matter how hard i yell, ill never cause the britney's to stop being popular. so either go with your vision and be happy or try to win by adapting.
hopefully, either way, you'll have a learning experience and a good time without losing your mind :)
and i can't speak for anyone else but i (usually) sign my comments during the contest but you can always go back after the results and see who said what.
Originally posted by paganini:
[i]That's ok though :) the "average" public also prefers Britney Spears over Bach, Rembrandt over Picasso, Playboy over Michaelangelo. :)
The truth is, i like to know who voted what for a given image. I know a few people on here whose opinion i value and if i can see their "votes" it'll be a lot more helpful.
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10/17/2002 07:27:23 PM · #41 |
I AM NOT RAILLING RIGHT NOW :) I was responding to your post. Maybe it's my use of CAPITAL letters that people thought I was using it to "YELL" but it was just an emphasis of certain words.
And thank you signing your name at the end of the message. It helps to know.
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
[i]it's true. but you know that.
so why rail?
i know no matter how hard i yell, ill never cause the britney's to stop being popular. so either go with your vision and be happy or try to win by adapting.
hopefully, either way, you'll have a learning experience and a good time without losing your mind :)
and i can't speak for anyone else but i (usually) sign my comments during the contest but you can always go back after the results and see who said what.
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 7:25:26 PM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 7:26:30 PM.
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10/17/2002 07:40:05 PM · #42 |
That is right, it is up to us. But you seem to think that you decide what is creative and what is not. Many of the photos that I see that people call creative, look like things I saw in high school art class. If the only thing that is communicated is shock and disgust, then the photo is not doing a good job.
Although I do not think your photo fits either the shocking or disgusting catagory, I also do not understand how it fits the challenge. I cannot wait to hear an explaination.
But an artist putting down the audience for not appreciating his work, is like a stand-up comedian yelling at his audience for not getting his jokes.
Originally posted by paganini:
Then perhaps your photo reflects what the general audiece taste is like on here if you do that each and every week. And whether that's good or bad is up to you.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]Originally posted by paganini:
[i] In the end the photographer on here has to decide whether they want to produce something that they themselves may not necessarily like in order to please the audience, OR, to produce something they like.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I can and have and will continue to post photos here that do both.
[/i]
[/i]
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10/17/2002 07:48:12 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by paganini:
I AM NOT RAILLING RIGHT NOW :) I was responding to your post.
Oh I know. I meant in general ; ).
And thank you signing your name at the end of the message. It helps to know.
You're welcome :).
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
it's true. but you know that.
so why rail?
i know no matter how hard i yell, ill never cause the britney's to stop being popular. so either go with your vision and be happy or try to win by adapting.
hopefully, either way, you'll have a learning experience and a good time without losing your mind :)
and i can't speak for anyone else but i (usually) sign my comments during the contest but you can always go back after the results and see who said what. |
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10/17/2002 08:01:15 PM · #44 |
| I was just to busy "investigating" the nature of all these sins to enter this weeks challenge. The winner will be who ever had the most fun?! This was an excellent challenge. I didn't have the time or the inspiration to meet it. My failure. But for all of the sorry little whimps who couldn't look a dead fish in the eye without saying "Ew..." and voting it a 1, let me remind you that no matter how nasty the images in this challenge might be, you haven't gotten anywhere near to the potential of sinful excess which is in our hearts. Vote a one if you are offended by sin. Vote a 10 if you love the photo.Or vote for the incumbant. It makes no difference.LOL |
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10/17/2002 08:01:20 PM · #45 |
the beatles were tremendously popular, very financially successful, yet they're also recognized as one of the most creative rock and roll bands of all time.
they are an example of an artist for whom "doing what came naturally" also happened to to fit in with the tastes of the public.
To the benefit of both.
; )
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
What's unfortunate about that is that the arts and croissant crowd thinks i'm some sort of panderer... o well... i'm just an amateur. I shoot what feels good and post them if i like them... :)
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10/17/2002 08:11:41 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by paganini:
[i]That's ok though :) the "average" public also prefers Britney Spears over Bach, Rembrandt over Picasso, Playboy over Michaelangelo. :)
Would you please clarify this statement???? The way it reads now (or the way I perhaps misinterpret it) is that Rembrandt is at the level of that Spears gal and of Playboy.
Both Rembrandt and Picasso were GIANTS and they both were also outstanding draftsmen. Considering that this week's challenge is about dramatic light, Rembrandt was a master of dramatic lighting.
I think the average public does not understand a hoot of Picasso and barely knows Rembrandt. The average public also loves shows like Survivor and other junk like that. But frankly, why waste time pondering about the "average public" (unless you're in marketing and need to unload your consumer products on it)?
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10/17/2002 08:52:59 PM · #47 |
There is an unfortunate and probably elitist strain in this discussion that suggests that popular art equates to "bad" art in some way.
Shakespeare was extraordinarily popular in his day, and remains so today. Does that make his work bad? According to some here, clearly it does, but I think that a moment's commeon sense will prove that is hardly the case.
Are "The Beatles" better or worse than Bach? Neither. They are different styles of music, which is exactly why you cannot compare Ms Spears to Bach, for example. (It would be possible to compare The Beatles and Britney Spears, however.)
And, yes, in my opinion Rembrandt was a significantly better painter than Picasso. But, that is just MY opinion and MY opinion is worth exactly the same as anyone else's.
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10/17/2002 09:24:27 PM · #48 |
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10/17/2002 10:12:35 PM · #49 |
I might not be able to speak in the context of this thread since I don't think I've ever heard Britney Spears sing (except in a Pepsi ad), but I do recall quiet well what the 'art' crowd of the day said about the Beatles... Coffee shops were full of folks reciting horrid poetry while banging on bongos saying the Beatles were sell out, no talents with no depth.
Now nearly 40 years later I can still remember all 4 of their names, but I'd be hard pressed to remember 3 names of the bongo Beatle bashers... 'Popular' doesn't mean 'sell-out'... Perhaps history will be kinder to Britney Spears then the 'artists' of her day... Again, I can't say since I've never heard her work... I'm just thinking that 'Envy' is a likely motive of those that think they are artistic for bashing those actually are.
John, while I wouldn't equate your work to the Beatles, you are clearly technically talented with a vision and taste that appeals to the masses. Dylan maybe?
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10/17/2002 11:13:59 PM · #50 |
I am saying that if you only want art htat is based purely on popular support, than you're saying Playboy is better than Michaelangelo because in today's world, most people would rather look at Playboy than Michaelangelo, at least guys around my age :)
your statement on "not wasting time on the general public" is what i originally said. i agree with that -- in my previous post which is a response to magnetic999's other post, i was saying that to think the general public agree with your work is EVERYTHING is silly. That's same comparison as "Because Britney Spears outsold all classical musician last year, classical music is worse than Britney Spears". Translation: "Because DPc votes xxx image as highest, it must be better."
Originally posted by Journey:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i]That's ok though :) the "average" public also prefers Britney Spears over Bach, Rembrandt over Picasso, Playboy over Michaelangelo. :)
Would you please clarify this statement???? The way it reads now (or the way I perhaps misinterpret it) is that Rembrandt is at the level of that Spears gal and of Playboy.
Both Rembrandt and Picasso were GIANTS and they both were also outstanding draftsmen. Considering that this week's challenge is about dramatic light, Rembrandt was a master of dramatic lighting.
I think the average public does not understand a hoot of Picasso and barely knows Rembrandt. The average public also loves shows like Survivor and other junk like that. But frankly, why waste time pondering about the "average public" (unless you're in marketing and need to unload your consumer products on it)?
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