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05/15/2003 12:46:06 PM · #26 |
If we were all required to write a written critique of our own photo subs for a challenge, boy would we be suprised :)
Got to be honest to yourself first, any comments after that is gravy :)
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05/15/2003 05:26:34 PM · #27 |
Excuse me for missing the other thread where john explained his new technique.....
I can't believe how nasty this thread got.
I still think that a number is pointless. Are we supposed to value it according to the giver? Why not just make everyone's scoring public instead. This would eliminate the need to comment altogether.
My point of this complaint is that i don't care WHAT score i was given by WHO....I care what you think I could improve. I don't get to comment on many photos, but when I do, I try to look for something that could be improved. I might comment on the composition, lighting, etc... I feel that these are the comments people are looking for. Yeah, it's nice to see a 'great job', 'love it', but that is just a feel good thing. To improve you need real critiques. I find that many other sites just use that pat on the back stuff, but i think this site should be more than that.
Just my 2 cents...
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05/15/2003 07:00:27 PM · #28 |
| A comment, ANY comment is a GIFT of someone's time. If you complain about the quality of the gift they stop giving. Some people dropped out of the Critique Club for the same reason. |
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05/15/2003 07:11:21 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by emorgan49:
A comment, ANY comment is a GIFT of someone's time. If you complain about the quality of the gift they stop giving. Some people dropped out of the Critique Club for the same reason. |
exactly, that's the bottom line here. well put |
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05/15/2003 07:18:25 PM · #30 |
I still disagree.
A score is a score.....
A comment is a comment.
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05/15/2003 07:54:49 PM · #31 |
Maybe these threads get somewhat nasty because posts complaining about the paucity and/or quality of comments are more often than not made by people who themselves make little effort to comment.
EVERYBODY can use their time better by doing other things rather than typing comments. People do it because of the honor system, i.e. unfair to expect feedback if you're unwilling to invest some time in giving feedback yourself.
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05/15/2003 08:11:48 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by mk:
myqyl, I'm just curious, but why do you value this sort of commenting so much? Would you feel the same if it were coming from someone "lesser known?" |
Admittedly, the number would mean more from someone whose opinion I respect. John certainly falls into that catagory as do most folks here. Once you get an idea of someone's voting style, the number can be very useful. If I got a "number" from someone brand new to the site, I'd give it less weight, but I'd still prefer the number to nothing...
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05/15/2003 08:24:15 PM · #33 |
I'm rather disappointed that Setz has decided to give up on this practice. It is not just a meaningless number...you have everyone's profile to go examine and gather further insight into their votes. You can see what they like and what they don't. If they commented this way consistently, you could see how they voted other's pics too. You can read forum posts, review submissions, and gauge that person's skill level. And then you can decide how much value you assign to that vote. It's MORE information than you would get otherwise.
I've always appreciated knowing what Setz and others have scored my submissions (when they choose to include it in a comment). That said, I don't have the guts to post any scores under a 7...that Setz is one brave sommbeetch to even try. So, thanks for trying Setz :)
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05/15/2003 08:25:09 PM · #34 |
@terry
You average giving 4 comments per challenge and you average receiving about 18.
John gives 135 per entry and receives 36.
Next challenge, try giving 135. Now imagine it for 42 weeks. Now I'll go back to echo what John said: "I don't really think this thread should continue beyond this point..."
M
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05/15/2003 09:12:15 PM · #35 |
John I do appreciate your comments I like the short two or three sentences I find from you on the member challenges most often they are very helpful, the numbers just wouldn't say what was wrong with it, and I think thats what everyone is saying they prefer when you leave a comment to know why you felt it deserved say a low score or a high score, than to be left wondering why you scored it that way, and thus end up pming you to find out why you did score it that way.
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05/15/2003 09:15:59 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
@terry
You average giving 4 comments per challenge and you average receiving about 18.
John gives 135 per entry and receives 36.
Next challenge, try giving 135. Now imagine it for 42 weeks. Now I'll go back to echo what John said: "I don't really think this thread should continue beyond this point..."
M |
Ya I see what you mean, but John doesn't have any kids. That allows him more time to comment.
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05/15/2003 09:34:53 PM · #37 |
mavrik-
I never said that I comment more than the next person. What I said is that I don't think that giving a score should be considered a comment. That is my opinion. I think that I should be entitled to an opinion.There is no right or wrong to it. Yes around here 'Setz is everything' .Can't say anything bad about him or else. I am not saying it about him. It could be anyone. I just feel that if we were to all start leaving scores, then isn't that just the same as seeing the results at the end, but with names attached? It does not help anyone. The fact remains that certain people will be considered more important than others..why...how would you take my score? Am I well known enough that it would have any meaning?
No I do not give many comments...I could tell you that Ihave a job, two kids, trying to get my business started, back problems, other physical problems, submit to several other sites, etc.....BUT when I do comment, you might see that I try to give some useful suggestions. That is what I feel helps someone improve.
Again this is all MY OPINION...I don't think someone should jump down my throat for it.
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05/15/2003 10:22:59 PM · #38 |
| Just wanted to say that I like knowing what John gave me as a score. It's nice to see who is behind the numbers. Definitely would love a comment, but see absolutely nothing wrong with just leaving a score. |
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05/15/2003 10:26:34 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by lecalan:
Just wanted to say that I like knowing what John gave me as a score. It's nice to see who is behind the numbers. Definitely would love a comment, but see absolutely nothing wrong with just leaving a score. |
ME NEITHER |
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05/15/2003 10:40:32 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by TerryGee:
mavrik-
I don't think that giving a score should be considered a comment. |
Then don't consider it a comment. Big deal!
You know, Terry, the time you spent here complaining you could have left some comments. It may surprise you but other people also have meaningful lives with plenty of challenges and yet take out the time to leave comments.
Wish the Admins would lock this thread. It's futile; some people are just not getting it.
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05/15/2003 10:42:19 PM · #41 |
what about from me?.....
what about jane doe?.....
If you look at the beginning I never mentioned JM. I mentioned the technique(scores for comments) if used by anyone.
would it make a difference if the score came from JUST ANYONE?
Journey
I love it...more personal attacks.
What is everyone's problem. Can't a person have an opinion? Is it your business if I feel like commenting tonight?
By the way, I did comment on at least 10 photos and have accomplished several others things, but thank you for your concern about my wasting my time...
Message edited by author 2003-05-15 22:48:02.
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05/15/2003 10:46:13 PM · #42 |
| There's no need to lock the thread if people who have something to say will do so without insulting each other. Try to discuss issues and not people... |
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05/15/2003 10:53:54 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I will not leave numbers on the photos anymore then... I will just comment with scores in the member challenge as time permits... |
Can I just sasy this. John you only left a number on my most recent entry. I was actually delighted though. You gave me a 9, and I think you are the best photographer on the site, by a long way (and there are a lot of fantastic photographers here, so thats a big statement) so that score made me happy. My shots that I have entered in past challenges have all scored under 5.0 (except my sticker) so I was delighted to see a high mark. It is definitly my best shot I have entered so far, and I was happy just to see that simple figure there. |
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05/15/2003 11:03:13 PM · #44 |
This forum (DPC) get's more and more ridiculous each week. What is everyones hang up on John Setzler? Who cares what he does? If he wants to leave numbers, god bless him.
Give the guy a break. In the greater scheme of things how does it really affect you?
He is a person with a camera. You can achieve the same results he does. Just try a lot harder, look a lot harder and open your eyes to possibilities.
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05/16/2003 12:33:54 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by TerryGee:
What I said is that I don't think that giving a score should be considered a comment. That is my opinion. I think that I should be entitled to an opinion. There is no right or wrong to it. |
You ARE entitled to your opinion. Whether there's a right or wrong...debatable.
Originally posted by TerryGee:
Yes around here 'Setz is everything' .Can't say anything bad about him or else. I am not saying it about him. It could be anyone. The fact remains that certain people will be considered more important than others..why...how would you take my score? |
*rofl* It's too bad you don't know me OR setz before making such an assumption. I'm not the first person or the last to 'defend setz' *all hail setz, king of dpc.* There IS a definite Setz bandwagon. I promise you, I'm off to the side watching it go by, in awe of its size, but not bowing to it and jumping on the rear of it. Certain people ARE more important than others. That's a fact I'm willing to live with to. I'm not a featured photog on dpcp because nobody has bought my shit. How much have you sold? How much has Setz? That is NOT an opinion - he is more valuable as a commodity to this site than you and me put together.
If you put a score chart in your profile, yes, I'd take a number. I don't think it's a great idea. I don't think it's the end of the world. I think that calling one person out for his or her voting and commenting method is a joke.
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05/16/2003 08:40:07 AM · #46 |
I posted these guidelines that I use to my profile:
What my scores mean:
1 - You didn't meet the challenge AND your photo is a compositional disaster, technically terrible, and probably not inspiring in any way.
2 - Same as 1 but you found some tie in to the challenge topic.
3 - Your photo meets the challenge but is weak in other areas. It is probably uninspiring subjectively. It doesn't speak to me and had no artistic value (to me). It would possibly look good posted on the refrigerator with a magnet.
4 - The photo is slightly below average. The subject choice is weak but not complete garbage. The photo was likely approached in an 'I don't really care' manner. It also looks like a minimal effort attempt.
5 - Average photo. Could be better and could be worse. It's OK compositionally. There is nothing particularly special about the shot. The photo doesn't show any strong intention. It looks like a quick attempt shot without much thought.
6 - The score of 6 is slightly above average. This score shows effort and good intent for a good challenge photo. There are attempts here at good technique, but not perfected attempts. There are signs of good composition and attention to detail. Effort is visible. The shot is subjectively ok, but could possibly be better.
7 - This score is above average. What sets it apart from a 6 is that the composition and technical issues that matter are all in working order. There is definite effort shown and the subject chosen works well for the challenge. There are beginnings of a good 'wow' factor in the photo.
8 - This photo has everything that a 7 has and there are compositional elements that are exceptionally well done. There are also no outstanding technical issues that I consider to be flaws. A score of 8 also shows some level of artistic and emotional impact. It's beginning to look like something I would consider hanging on my wall. I really like the photo at this point. You have done a good job.
9 - A score of 9 is not really an addition to the score of 8 as much as it is a subtraction from a score of 10. It's a great photo and it contains all the elements I consider important for a 10... emotional and artistic impact, great subject choice, great composition, great technical execution.... There is just something about the photo that keeps it from a 10... something very minor... something I can't always put my finger on. It's definitely worthy of printing and hanging.
10 - A photo that simply wows me... There is great use of art, emotion, color, or lack of color... the photo speaks to me... i can identify with the image... Most importantly, the photo inspires me. these are the photos I would study in an attempt to improve my own work.
This list is just a guideline... There is nothing written in stone about it...
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05/16/2003 08:41:59 AM · #47 |
Ironically I voted through a number of challenges some months back and often left nothing but scores - I figured that since I'd participated in forum discussions about how my personal voting scale works that it would mean something to some people.
I then added comments to a number of entries as I had time and inclination.
At the time, not one person made any complaints about my leaving only a score. Not to say they liked it, didn't like, thought it was useful, thought it was futile.
Which leads me to believe that this is more about Setzler than it is about the issue of leaving score-only comments.
There are those here who hero-worship Setz and other high performing members. I'm not one of them. There are those who like to go to the opposite extreme - maybe they are trying to prove to themselves that they are individual and unique and don't follow the herd - who knows the motivation?
At the end of the day - the more complaints there are about comments - and there seem to be more each week - the less people are going to feel motivated to comment in ANY way. And that includes constructive text comments.
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05/16/2003 09:09:15 AM · #48 |
Anyone who maintains a high profile on the net is going to have people trying to shoot them down. Fortunately John seems quite adept at sidestepping the bullets and carrying on forwards (and he no doubt does it in bullet-time with perfect lighting, focus and composition ).
There was maybe an element of 'who does this guy think he is that he can just post a number?' in this thread. I hope this dies down now that an explanation of the numbers has been posted.
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05/16/2003 09:49:03 AM · #49 |
Thank you everybody who leaves a comment and a number score (or has a profile posting their guidelines on how they vote).
In my opinion, a comment of "very nice" is not as helpful as "very nice - 8" or even "very nice - 1".
Being relatively new to this site and photography, I am still deciding on how am I able to judge anybody's photo if I am not confident in telling good from bad. I am not just talking about focus here - how about DOF, lighting, size, color, interest, and so on. A comment allows me to gauge that voter's opinion among others' and to get used to the lingo of this fascinating hobby. In time, I feel confident I will be able to offer constructive and honest opinions of other people's works. For now, I am content to be a student and to try to learn from others who are definitely better at this than I am |
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05/16/2003 09:50:14 AM · #50 |
Setz, your score chart is remarkably similar to mine...
10 Absolutely L O V E it and technically excellent. Has a LOT of appeal – would like to own it!
9 Love it as much as a 10 but it̢۪s tecnically not quite as good or it̢۪s technically superb and I like it a lot but not quite as much as a 10
8 Still up there in my top favourites, a level below 9 and 10, technically good
7 Photos that appeal to me, nicely taken, interesting/ relevant subject matter, technically reasonably good
6 Photos that hold some attraction for me, reasonably taken – either not very high appeal or not technically as good as they could be
5 Reasonable attempts, are more than just photos of something/ anything
4 Don̢۪t appeal to me content wise but arent bad photos per se or do appeal minimally but are poor technically
3 Don̢۪t grab me at ALL, composition/ photo quality not great
2 Very poor technically or very dull or do not meet challenge IMO
1 Photos I really don̢۪t like at all and/or totally don̢۪t fit the theme for me in any way shape or form
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