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11/03/2004 08:48:13 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by fullmontez:
Sounds like some serious pessimism. I'll again say that I have seen firsthand the good that we are doing in Afghanistan & in Iraq. Despite whatever the method the decision came to go to these places we are bringing a better life to millions who never even dreamed that such a life was plausible. |
William - we have stumbled through bad administrations in the past and we will again. I do not feel completely pessimistic. I also agree that undoubtedly we must now bring a better life to the millions in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, there are tens of thousands (one independent world organization puts the civilian death toll at over 100,000, not 13,000) who would disagree with the statement "better life".
I also disagree with you on the statement:
" .... rather have a leader who makes a decision when called upon to & sticks by it then a leader who cannot make a decision in a timely manner & then does a complete 180."
As you get older you might change your mind on sticking to decisions even in the face of calamity. Very few dispute that we now need to help Iraq out of this mess, even Kerry. Do not buy in to the political manipulation of "flip-flop". Most good leaders change their minds periodically based on good information. It is folly to blindly proceed in the face of evidence that you need to change course.
Based on your statements that you âknow first handâ Iâll assume you have been there while in the military. If so, I thank you for your service. Your mission to help the people there is noble even if the leadership that sent you there is flawed.
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11/03/2004 08:57:50 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
John Kerry:
âWe talked about the danger of division in our country and the need â the desperate need â for unity, for finding common ground and coming together. Today, I hope we can begin the healing.â
George W. Bush:
âReaching these goals will require the broad support of Americans. So today I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support, and I will work to earn it.â
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So, I ask a sincere question:
What do you (any of you, individually or corporately) think the president and/or John Kerry should reasonably do or say that would be sufficient to "begin the healing" and "earn your support"?
I include both Bush and Kerry because reconciliation requires the efforts and willingness of both parties. I say reasonably because, well... Let's just see how this goes.
They've both said the words. What now? |
Scott - If you look back I spoke to the issue of finding a way ....
You ask what I think they must do to begin the healing. Based on the Bush first term, after a squeaker of an election, instead of uniting and moving to center he moved further right. Even after running on a more centrist and "compassionate conservative" agenda. What I need to see is that he "gets it" and shows signs of responding to the concerns of people who voted for him and those who voted for Kerry.
As for Kerry I expect him to go back to the Senate and help fix the problems in Iraq. I also expect him to fight for the environment that has been trashed in the last four years and to demand we begin to think about a "balanced" budget.
In other words, actions speak.
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11/03/2004 08:58:31 PM · #53 |
It appears your prayers have fallen on deaf ears
God has abandoned the human race
Left to fend and face
The winter of soul
Orphaned and alone
The children quiver and cold
As Diablo takes hold
With a swagger(t)
And promises of
Pet rol
But don't stop your prayers
Just find a god who cares
"I know that millions of folks, including myself, have been praying for the right man for the job (whomever that may be) would hold office. So, now I have a strong faith that this is what was meant to happen.
Don't be too hurt :-)" |
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11/03/2004 09:15:16 PM · #54 |
What are you talking about Eric, some 100,000 innocent women, men and children have been killed by the US over in Iraq!!!
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Go to Iraq and tell that to the 16,000 PLUS dead Iraqi civilians and there families. |
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11/03/2004 09:17:38 PM · #55 |
What's really cool is how many red counties there are across the U.S.
Square miles of counties won:
Bush = 3.28 million
Kerry = 741,000
I wonder if this spanking will be a wake-up call to the Democratic party to quit putting wackos like Michael Moore next to Jimmy Carter at their convention...
It sure feels good to be on the right side of history...
Message edited by author 2004-11-03 21:21:36. |
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11/03/2004 09:24:04 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
It appears your prayers have fallen on deaf ears
God has abandoned the human race
Left to fend and face
The winter of soul
Orphaned and alone
The children quiver and cold
As Diablo takes hold
With a swagger(t)
And promises of
Pet rol
But don't stop your prayers
Just find a god who cares
"I know that millions of folks, including myself, have been praying for the right man for the job (whomever that may be) would hold office. So, now I have a strong faith that this is what was meant to happen.
Don't be too hurt :-)" |
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11/03/2004 09:24:11 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
What are you talking about Eric, some 100,000 innocent women, men and children have been killed by the US over in Iraq!!!
Originally posted by ericlimon:
Go to Iraq and tell that to the 16,000 PLUS dead Iraqi civilians and there families. |
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yeah, there are different numbers floating around. I think the 100g numbers are direct and indirect casualties. ie: bad water, no power, food shortages, ect... that cause deaths. the low figure i gave are direct casualties. ie: bullets and bombs. the 16,000 is not an exact number.
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11/03/2004 09:24:23 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
John Kerry:
âWe talked about the danger of division in our country and the need â the desperate need â for unity, for finding common ground and coming together. Today, I hope we can begin the healing.â
George W. Bush:
âReaching these goals will require the broad support of Americans. So today I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support, and I will work to earn it.â
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So, I ask a sincere question:
What do you (any of you, individually or corporately) think the president and/or John Kerry should reasonably do or say that would be sufficient to "begin the healing" and "earn your support"?
I include both Bush and Kerry because reconciliation requires the efforts and willingness of both parties. I say reasonably because, well... Let's just see how this goes.
They've both said the words. What now? |
A suggestion to "begin the healing": The president should fire his Fuhrer-in-Chief, John Ashcroft, and support a re-write of the Patriot Act.
Unfortunately, the president can't take back a phony war. |
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11/03/2004 09:25:46 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
What's really cool is how many red counties there are across the U.S.
Square miles of counties won:
Bush = 3.28 million
Kerry = 741,000 |
It's Bush country out there. :)
Something odd about those square miles numbers. The numbers in 2000 were:
Bush 2,432,603
Gore 577,029
I know everyone says American's are getting fatter. Is America getting fatter as well? ;) |
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11/03/2004 09:29:05 PM · #60 |
| I believe the 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the invasion is correct, from all causes, as Eric said. |
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11/03/2004 09:38:04 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
What's really cool is how many red counties there are across the U.S.
Square miles of counties won:
Bush = 3.28 million
Kerry = 741,000
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This would be significant if real estate meant more than people, oh wait, I think it does to the "right". |
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11/03/2004 09:42:50 PM · #62 |
A new study conducted by John Hopkins and Columbia University Schools of Public Health now show that civilian mortality in Iraq, not including hot spots such as Fallujah, to be around 100,000 men/women/children !!!
The scientific study conducted within Iraq was done by Les Roberts, et al, and confirms:
"Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children."
"Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq,"
The study can be accessed at:
Global Research |
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11/03/2004 09:47:37 PM · #63 |
<<< A sad day for the world. God help us all. I guess all the fear mongering worked. The American people have given the Bush administration a license to continue bullying the rest of the world and ignoring the UN, the World Court and the Kyoto Accord.....except of course when it's to their advantage. Shame on you. >>>
From the locked thread......
The un, the world court, and the kyoto accord all deserve to be ignored.
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11/03/2004 09:48:24 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
What's really cool is how many red counties there are across the U.S.
Square miles of counties won:
Bush = 3.28 million
Kerry = 741,000
I wonder if this spanking will be a wake-up call to the Democratic party to quit putting wackos like Michael Moore next to Jimmy Carter at their convention...
It sure feels good to be on the right side of history... |
That is so true. If the Democrats have any chance of taking 2008 they have to distance themselves from the far left wing fringe. It may work on in NY or SF but it does not play in the heartland.
I am open minded, I would like to see a moderate candidate in 2008 for the Democrats. But if they nominate someone as liberal as Kerry, well the election will go again to the Repulicans.
/Independent that voted for Bush. |
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11/03/2004 09:55:22 PM · #65 |
I"m not really sure there is that much difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. One is right of center, and the other is way right of center. Actually, G Bush and his company are not even conservative. They are expanding government, ballooning the deficit to record numbers and have plans for pre-emptive wars. Hardly conservative ideals. In addition, while there are some in his administration that are religous, I think for the most part they are using the religous right for a big voting block more than really trying to convert this nation to a religous one. That said about the Bush admin, I think there are quite a number of people in the Republican party who are really trying to convert this country into a theocracy. The democrats and republicans are both heavily tied to the multinational corporations and above all else, both parties are pushing for corporate globalization. That is their constituency. Not the American public.
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Look, not matter what side you were on the US is in trouble. Until we find a way to bridge the divide between the philosophies of the two major parties we are doomed to repeat mistakes over and over. You can not ignore half the voting population, from either party. You can not suppress the ideas of one over the other forever. Such nations eventually end in anarchy. It looks to me that we are dividing along the lines of those who believe in a secular state and those who want more of a theological society. Seems strange that we are fighting to keep a state from going down the road to a religious based society while we move rapidly towards one. I think our founding fathers showed great foresight to try and keep the two issues separate.
I can only hope that the administration changes course and moves back to the center. Their history in this respect is not good however. |
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11/03/2004 10:00:43 PM · #66 |
I see the liberals are still making ridiculous assupmtions based on nothing more than bias against the right. 100,000. LOL what a joke. Oh here's a link to the new seal of the Democratic Party:
Democratic Seal
Enjoy!
BTW, Thank You America for coming out and saying NO to socialism by voting American and snuffing out the socialist efforts to get their party in office... It's a great day! John Edwards lost his senate seat woo hoo! Tom Douchle lost his senate seat, Martin Frost lost his senate seat... and others woo hoo! Now we can get America back on track with the American dream, of being independent, achieving success and happiness on your own and not expecting the government to hold your hand and control your life... smaller government means more freedom and prosperity for all! And maybe now we can stop pussyfooting around so much and ramp up the kicking ass of the terrorists in Iraq... look out Zarqauwi(sp) here we come! your head is next!
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11/03/2004 10:04:08 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
That is so true. If the Democrats have any chance of taking 2008 they have to distance themselves from the far left wing fringe. It may work on in NY or SF but it does not play in the heartland.
I am open minded, I would like to see a moderate candidate in 2008 for the Democrats. But if they nominate someone as liberal as Kerry, well the election will go again to the Repulicans.
/Independent that voted for Bush. |
Cam - I agree that the Dems need to find a way to appeal to a broader segment. But I would be careful classifying damn near 1/2 the voters as ultra liberal. The problem is how to sell the message. The right has done an outstanding job painting a picture of liberals as all one group and they all look like Michael Moore. Just listen to conservative talk radio. The fact is that Kerry, despite the political ads, is far from an ultra liberal in the US Senate. A look at his voting record throughout his career, instead of a select time frame, paints a different picture than the "reality" painted by the ads. Marketing seems to be the answer in the long run. If you look at what the right says and what it does they hurt most of the people that vote for them. They just market themselves better and cast an evil shadow over the opposition. IMHO anyway. |
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11/03/2004 10:08:44 PM · #68 |
The study was done by public health scientists from John Hopkins Univ and Columbia Univ IN Iraq. They are not biased scientists and there claims are not rediculous assumptions. But, if you want to stick your head in the sand then be my guest.
Originally posted by Anachronite:
I see the liberals are still making ridiculous assupmtions based on nothing more than bias against the right. 100,000. LOL what a joke. Oh here's a link to the new seal of the Democratic Party:
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11/03/2004 10:08:48 PM · #69 |
Somewhere, I read that John Kerry was the #1 liberal Senator and John Edwards was the #4 one. I have no idea where, now, as it has been months since I had seen that.
Also, from what I've read in these threads, and heard others say, not all of those votes (many of them, in fact) were not cast "for" Kerry, but "against" Bush. Had Kerry/Edwards been perceived as being a bit more "moderate," they may have carried some of the more "liberal" Republicans.
According to some in the A-B-B camp, Kermit the frog would have stood a good chance.
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11/03/2004 10:09:45 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
I see the liberals are still making ridiculous assupmtions based on nothing more than bias against the right. 100,000. LOL what a joke. Oh here's a link to the new seal of the Democratic Party:
Democratic Seal
Enjoy!
BTW, Thank You America for coming out and saying NO to socialism by voting American and snuffing out the socialist efforts to get their party in office... It's a great day! John Edwards lost his senate seat woo hoo! Tom Douchle lost his senate seat, Martin Frost lost his senate seat... and others woo hoo! Now we can get America back on track with the American dream, of being independent, achieving success and happiness on your own and not expecting the government to hold your hand and control your life... smaller government means more freedom and prosperity for all! And maybe now we can stop pussyfooting around so much and ramp up the kicking ass of the terrorists in Iraq... look out Zarqauwi(sp) here we come! your head is next! |
Yikes - pretty scary if this is representitive. |
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11/03/2004 10:15:15 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Somewhere, I read that John Kerry was the #1 liberal Senator and John Edwards was the #4 one. I have no idea where, now, as it has been months since I had seen that.
Also, from what I've read in these threads, and heard others say, not all of those votes (many of them, in fact) were not cast "for" Kerry, but "against" Bush. Had Kerry/Edwards been perceived as being a bit more "moderate," they may have carried some of the more "liberal" Republicans.
According to some in the A-B-B camp, Kermit the frog would have stood a good chance. |
Karma - that is the problem with figures like you quote. They are put out there and no one knows where they came from or even if they are true. Repeat them a bunch, staty on messeage and people believe you. The internet (as I'm sure you are aware) is full of garbage that has no basis in reality. That is why I say it is a sales job and marketing. You right on two counts, that Kerry would have won had he been perceived as less liberal and that Kermit could (should) have beat Bush with the A-B-B crowd. |
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11/03/2004 10:18:19 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
... smaller government means more freedom and prosperity for all! |
Smaller government? I guess you're out of touch with the reality of what's been happening in the Congress lately, the out-of-control spending spree, the fact the this prez hasn't vetoed one spending bill, the national debt that's being racked up at a record pace, and the fact that even many prominent conservatives have been publicly critical of these policies.
Message edited by author 2004-11-03 22:19:29. |
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11/03/2004 10:19:09 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Originally posted by karmat:
Somewhere, I read that John Kerry was the #1 liberal Senator and John Edwards was the #4 one. I have no idea where, now, as it has been months since I had seen that.
Also, from what I've read in these threads, and heard others say, not all of those votes (many of them, in fact) were not cast "for" Kerry, but "against" Bush. Had Kerry/Edwards been perceived as being a bit more "moderate," they may have carried some of the more "liberal" Republicans.
According to some in the A-B-B camp, Kermit the frog would have stood a good chance. |
Karma - that is the problem with figures like you quote. They are put out there and no one knows where they came from or even if they are true. Repeat them a bunch, staty on messeage and people believe you. The internet (as I'm sure you are aware) is full of garbage that has no basis in reality. That is why I say it is a sales job and marketing. You right on two counts, that Kerry would have won had he been perceived as less liberal and that Kermit could (should) have beat Bush with the A-B-B crowd. |
Actually, I don't think it was the Internet where I got it. Seems like I was reading a magazine (Time, Newsweek, along those lines) at one of my doctor's appointments last summer.
But anyway . . . .
Guess this means Edwards is back in NC practicing law. I hope my OB/GYN sticks around long enough to deliver my baby in February. :-/
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11/03/2004 10:22:47 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
They are put out there and no one knows where they came from or even if they are true. |
The information came from the National Journal, "the leading weekly on politics, policy and government... providing authoritative, nonpartisan coverage and analysis of key political and policy developments."
More details available here. |
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11/03/2004 10:23:56 PM · #75 |
Got to sign off now, thank you all for letting me get over my depression today. Time to put the election behind and move on. Letâs truly hope that the rancor diminishes over time, from both sides. I suggest turning the TV or radio dial when the commentator gets cutting. Think for yourself and take nothing at face value. Good luck to all and good night.
Message edited by author 2004-11-03 23:01:11. |
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