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11/05/2004 02:04:06 PM · #126 |
I don't know why I actually thought I might get some real answers to my questions. here's my answers to my own questions. I don't expect everyone to agree, but this is how I feel as a "liberal" person.
Tell me whats wrong with not agreeing with a stupid war?
Thankfully, we still live in a country where we are allowed to disagree with the direction our leaders are taking us. Sure, we were mislead into believeing that Sadam had WMD and intended to use them on us in cunjunction with terrorists. But since we are there, we better make right to our country, the Iraqi citizens, and the world community. To answer the question, there is nothing wrong with not agreeing with this war. Whether you think it is a stupid war or a smart war doesn't matter. You, as an American citizen and a citizen of the world have a right to believe whatever you feel in regards to war.
whats wrong with not agreeing to endless civilian bloodshed?
The unfortunate cost of waging a war on another country is the fact that civilians get killed. Whether it's from a "smart" bomb that goes off target through computer or human error, or from destroying the water suppy or attacking hospitals. Bringing the battle into an urban enviroment will obviously put more civilians at risk, and insurgents fighting an occupying power will cause more civilian casualties through the use of gurrilla tactics. Granted, if the US didn't attack and occupy Iraq, then civilian wouldn't be caught in the crossfire. Unfortunately, the fact remains: we are in a ground battle in urban enviroments in the country of Iraq. To answer the question, any person in their right mind would disagree with the death of civilians.
whats wrong with believing in health care for everyone?
While we are the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world, one would think we could provide more affordable, or free healthcare to every man, woman, and child in the country. Currently Canada has the most public hospital system in the world: 98% of all Canadian hospital care is paid for by the state, while no other country covers more than 80%. We do not live in a socialist society. But then again, neither do Canadians, or several other countries that provide good healthcare coverage for their citizens.
whats wrong with me thinking the president is a moron?
Granted, he isn't the brightest crayola in the box, but moron might be a little harsh. Sure he's made quite a few mistakes, we all do, but most of us can fess up and own our mistakes. So the answer to the question is, you have a right to feel that way about him.
whats wrong with believing in the womans right to chose?
Yeah, there are rumors floating around that Bush will appoint some very conservative judges who may or may not try to overturn Roe V Wade. And yes, it is common knowledge that GW Bush is against abortions of all kinds, except in the case of rape, incest or to save the mother’s life. So knowing how Bush feels about abortions, the chances are probably pretty good that he might appoint judges who follow the same believe pattern as he does. The answer to the question: Every human, male or female should be given the basic right of choice, and that right should protected and fought for.
whats wrong with believing in investing in education instead of guns?
There is nothing wrong with investing in education instead of guns. Actually, if our world was better educated, the violence everywhere in the would most likely go way down. Total defence budget for 2005 = $401.7 billion Total education budget for 2005 = $57.3 billion. Think about this: if the education budget increased from 57.3b to 100b, and the defence decreased from 401.7b to 350b, we would be the smartest country in the world. and we would still have the best army and the largest defence budget in the world.
whats wrong with believing in joining the entire world at the table instead of pushing them away? Sure, GW Bush wasn't able to get support from many of our most trusted allies, because they correctly believed the war againts Iraq was unjustified. There were no WMD's and there was not an imminent threat to the security of the US from Iraq. So, yeah, he pushed the world away after the entire world was on our side following the horrible events of september 11th. The world is not on the side of the US in this struggle. The US has pushed away from the world table, and we should be sitting at that table working together to make the whole world a safer place for our children.
whats wrong with believing in gay rights?
GW Bush supports a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as between one man and one woman and deny states the ability to recognize marriage between same-sex couples. This stance is discriminating to gay couples. Gay, straight, black, white, yellow, or polka dot people should all have equal rights, and the constitution of the United States of America should not be tampered with because someones belief conflicts with somebody elses lifestyle.
whats wrong with believing in basic civil liberties?
A womans right to choose, gay rights, free speech, privacy, religious liberty, etc... These things are part of the frontline fights for basic civil liberties. A womans right to choose is close to being tampered with, gay rights are being tampered with, free speech and privacy rights have deteriorated severly since the implementation of the US Patriot Act. If we allow the interests of "national security" to take away our freedoms, we surrender what it is to be an American, and the terrorists win. Basic civil liberties for all people is something we all need to fight to protect.
whats wrong with believing in taking care of the enviroment?
GW Bush has stepped away from the Kyoto treaty, and his enviromental policy is plain and clear to anyone who want to do some research. Don't just read the official statement, instead look into the actions of this administration in regards to the enviroment. Here's a link to some of the things the administration has implemented in the last 4 years //www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/fridays.asp If you care at all about the enviroment, these policies clearly should strike a nerve. With a little research, you can find lots of information about the Bush administration and the enviroment. Taking care of the enviroment is a good thing. And neither party is doing right by our enviroment.
whats wrong with believing in keeping American jobs in America?
The Bush administration said on 2/10/2004 "The movement of U.S. factory jobs and white-collar work to other countries is part of a positive transformation that will enrich the U.S. economy over time, even if it causes short-term pain and dislocation." Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers said "I think outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run," Nearly 2.7 million manufacturing and 1 million professional-services and information-technology jobs have been lost since President Bush took office. Bush told us he would create jobs — he just didn't tell us they would be in China, India and the Philippines. Keeping jobs in America will help to make America stronger. It will provide jobs for Americans, and will put food on the table of hard working Americans. Keeping jobs in America is a good thing. Outsourcing jobs overseas is only good for the corporation.
whats wrong with believing in keeping a seperation of church and state?
George W. Bush is among the most openly religious presidents in U.S. history. A daily Bible reader, he often talks about how Jesus changed his heart. He has spoken, publicly and privately, of hearing God's call to run for the presidency and of praying for God's help since he came into office. The seperation of church and state is getting thinner evry day. Religion is playing a major role in the direction of our great country.
tell me. what is wrong with that?
Nothing is wrong with that. It is your right and duty as an american citizen to question your government.
Message edited by author 2004-11-05 14:20:12. |
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11/05/2004 03:17:05 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by TomFoolery:
He is your president and he deserves respect. If Kerry had one it would be the same way. I pray that Bush will do the right thing in the next four years, and I have faith that he will.
spelling |
Bush is indeed the president again, I do have respect for the office. Bush cannot destroy that.
I too pray that Bush will do the right thing over the next 4 yrs, but any faith I might have had that he will is LOOOOOONG gone.
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11/05/2004 04:34:25 PM · #128 |
just posted by CNN
faulty voting machines: electronic voting machine gives extra votes to Bush in Ohio
This is the first report of machines giving votes to Bush, and the Bush admin better hope it's the only one. |
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11/05/2004 04:58:52 PM · #129 |
And that is only for 1 county. Do the math...
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11/05/2004 05:02:50 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
And that is only for 1 county. Do the math... |
Uh, OK. 1 + 0 = 1. |
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11/05/2004 05:07:27 PM · #131 |
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and
glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright
moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) |
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11/05/2004 05:46:47 PM · #132 |
After reading this lengthy thread, it looks as though everyone is blaming Christianity/religion as the reason Kerry got beat.
It’s sad to see such animosity against a group in a country where people are free to believe what ever they please. It seems to me, that it would be more beneficial to the Democratic Party to figure out why the Party didn’t get the “non-religious” voter out, if the “religious” voter was the true reason behind Kerry’s loss. All the postings like the “Jesusland” map, and the blaming of the “religious” just makes the Party look bad.
Putting the blame on any one group in a free country is no way to win new supporters.
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11/05/2004 05:53:36 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by nborton:
After reading this lengthy thread, it looks as though everyone is blaming Christianity/religion as the reason Kerry got beat. |
All the evidence points that way. It's sad to see the citizenry of a nation founded on the freedom of the individual from gonvernment intrusion into their private lives so passively abdicate their responsibility to safeguard that freedom from a gang of rich, media-savvy theocrats. |
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11/05/2004 06:30:08 PM · #134 |
The Republicans themselves are crediting their win to a larger turnout amongst evangelical, so-called "moral issues" voters, and I think you're incorrect about folks here "blaming" them. I don't even think most participants here have mentioned them.
The thing that's a mystery to me is, as it seems most participants in this forum are fairly bright and informed people, what on earth could possess you to vote for that freak Bush?? I'd really like a response to this question because, try as I might, I cannot fathom how anyone could do such a thing. Can it be that you all have really been taken in by the lies and manipulations? Can it be that you all don't care that Bush is the most arrogant and irresponsible leader this country has seen in a very long time? Can all of you Bush supporters sincerely defend his policies? Or is it just flat-out, unmitigated hatred for anyone left of center (or maybe you all even hate moderates, who knows?) that drives you to sell out your country and your own best interests? How can you seriously consider yourselves patriots?
Message edited by author 2004-11-05 18:31:52. |
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11/05/2004 06:53:41 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by nborton:
After reading this lengthy thread, it looks as though everyone is blaming Christianity/religion as the reason Kerry got beat. |
All the evidence points that way. It's sad to see the citizenry of a nation founded on the freedom of the individual from gonvernment intrusion into their private lives so passively abdicate their responsibility to safeguard that freedom from a gang of rich, media-savvy theocrats. |
That is absolutly why Kerry lost. Well that and this. |
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11/05/2004 06:54:27 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
The Republicans themselves are crediting their win to a larger turnout amongst evangelical, so-called "moral issues" voters, and I think you're incorrect about folks here "blaming" them. I don't even think most participants here have mentioned them.
The thing that's a mystery to me is, as it seems most participants in this forum are fairly bright and informed people, what on earth could possess you to vote for that freak Bush?? I'd really like a response to this question because, try as I might, I cannot fathom how anyone could do such a thing. Can it be that you all have really been taken in by the lies and manipulations? Can it be that you all don't care that Bush is the most arrogant and irresponsible leader this country has seen in a very long time? Can all of you Bush supporters sincerely defend his policies? Or is it just flat-out, unmitigated hatred for anyone left of center (or maybe you all even hate moderates, who knows?) that drives you to sell out your country and your own best interests? How can you seriously consider yourselves patriots? |
A lot of people are probably asking the same thing about Kerry voters and feel just as strongly as you do.
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11/05/2004 06:59:36 PM · #137 |
the reason i have a really hard time trying to understand the liberal ideals is exactly this thread...it's all finger pointing, no personal look at your own party, no thoughts that
maybe, just maybe, voter fraud happens on both sides of the political spectrum.
maybe, just maybe, kerry has faults just like bush.
maybe, just maybe, the democrats here and all over the country have a huge problem with dwelling in the past...none of your leaders are inspirational, none of your leaders have ideas about how to solve our world's problems outside of getting rid of "our dumb president".
living in the past is a terrible place to be and is why kerry lost. the democratic party is no longer a party of visionaries, it's a party guilty of having no vision, period, and john kerry presented that as loud as possible for all of america to see. i don't like bush but sure as heck didn't like how kerry spent 100% of his time trying to tear bush down and 0% of his time trying to show america why HE should be president. the last two election candidates for the democrats are proof positive that the democratic party is headed in the wrong direction. it proves that even though bush made blunders in his first term, he still was able to beat kerry by a far wider margin than he beat (well in fact he didn't beat him by popular vote) gore by the first time...this is AFTER all the bad stuff happened.
personally i find my political views socially liberal and fiscally conservative but i can't call myself a member of a party with no vision. |
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11/05/2004 07:08:16 PM · #138 |
If you're concerned about the election results and whether in fact it was manipulated, here's one thing you can right now: contribute to //blackboxvoting.org/. This organization has already filed one of the largest freedom of information acts to look at how the electronic voting machines recorded the votes -- we already know that fraud has been committed, just do a cursory search of electronic voting machines and recent elections. We cannot let this issue go away, and here's one very small thing you can do today to begin the fight.
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11/05/2004 07:10:43 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
I don't know why I actually thought I might get some real answers to my questions. here's my answers to my own questions. I don't expect everyone to agree, but this is how I feel as a "liberal" person.
Tell me whats wrong with not agreeing with a stupid war?
Thankfully, we still live in a country where we are allowed to disagree with the direction our leaders are taking us. Sure, we were mislead into believeing that Sadam had WMD and intended to use them on us in cunjunction with terrorists. But since we are there, we better make right to our country, the Iraqi citizens, and the world community. To answer the question, there is nothing wrong with not agreeing with this war. Whether you think it is a stupid war or a smart war doesn't matter. You, as an American citizen and a citizen of the world have a right to believe whatever you feel in regards to war.
whats wrong with not agreeing to endless civilian bloodshed?
The unfortunate cost of waging a war on another country is the fact that civilians get killed. Whether it's from a "smart" bomb that goes off target through computer or human error, or from destroying the water suppy or attacking hospitals. Bringing the battle into an urban enviroment will obviously put more civilians at risk, and insurgents fighting an occupying power will cause more civilian casualties through the use of gurrilla tactics. Granted, if the US didn't attack and occupy Iraq, then civilian wouldn't be caught in the crossfire. Unfortunately, the fact remains: we are in a ground battle in urban enviroments in the country of Iraq. To answer the question, any person in their right mind would disagree with the death of civilians.
whats wrong with believing in health care for everyone?
While we are the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world, one would think we could provide more affordable, or free healthcare to every man, woman, and child in the country. Currently Canada has the most public hospital system in the world: 98% of all Canadian hospital care is paid for by the state, while no other country covers more than 80%. We do not live in a socialist society. But then again, neither do Canadians, or several other countries that provide good healthcare coverage for their citizens.
whats wrong with me thinking the president is a moron?
Granted, he isn't the brightest crayola in the box, but moron might be a little harsh. Sure he's made quite a few mistakes, we all do, but most of us can fess up and own our mistakes. So the answer to the question is, you have a right to feel that way about him.
whats wrong with believing in the womans right to chose?
Yeah, there are rumors floating around that Bush will appoint some very conservative judges who may or may not try to overturn Roe V Wade. And yes, it is common knowledge that GW Bush is against abortions of all kinds, except in the case of rape, incest or to save the mother’s life. So knowing how Bush feels about abortions, the chances are probably pretty good that he might appoint judges who follow the same believe pattern as he does. The answer to the question: Every human, male or female should be given the basic right of choice, and that right should protected and fought for.
whats wrong with believing in investing in education instead of guns?
There is nothing wrong with investing in education instead of guns. Actually, if our world was better educated, the violence everywhere in the would most likely go way down. Total defence budget for 2005 = $401.7 billion Total education budget for 2005 = $57.3 billion. Think about this: if the education budget increased from 57.3b to 100b, and the defence decreased from 401.7b to 350b, we would be the smartest country in the world. and we would still have the best army and the largest defence budget in the world.
whats wrong with believing in joining the entire world at the table instead of pushing them away? Sure, GW Bush wasn't able to get support from many of our most trusted allies, because they correctly believed the war againts Iraq was unjustified. There were no WMD's and there was not an imminent threat to the security of the US from Iraq. So, yeah, he pushed the world away after the entire world was on our side following the horrible events of september 11th. The world is not on the side of the US in this struggle. The US has pushed away from the world table, and we should be sitting at that table working together to make the whole world a safer place for our children.
whats wrong with believing in gay rights?
GW Bush supports a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as between one man and one woman and deny states the ability to recognize marriage between same-sex couples. This stance is discriminating to gay couples. Gay, straight, black, white, yellow, or polka dot people should all have equal rights, and the constitution of the United States of America should not be tampered with because someones belief conflicts with somebody elses lifestyle.
whats wrong with believing in basic civil liberties?
A womans right to choose, gay rights, free speech, privacy, religious liberty, etc... These things are part of the frontline fights for basic civil liberties. A womans right to choose is close to being tampered with, gay rights are being tampered with, free speech and privacy rights have deteriorated severly since the implementation of the US Patriot Act. If we allow the interests of "national security" to take away our freedoms, we surrender what it is to be an American, and the terrorists win. Basic civil liberties for all people is something we all need to fight to protect.
whats wrong with believing in taking care of the enviroment?
GW Bush has stepped away from the Kyoto treaty, and his enviromental policy is plain and clear to anyone who want to do some research. Don't just read the official statement, instead look into the actions of this administration in regards to the enviroment. Here's a link to some of the things the administration has implemented in the last 4 years //www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/fridays.asp If you care at all about the enviroment, these policies clearly should strike a nerve. With a little research, you can find lots of information about the Bush administration and the enviroment. Taking care of the enviroment is a good thing. And neither party is doing right by our enviroment.
whats wrong with believing in keeping American jobs in America?
The Bush administration said on 2/10/2004 "The movement of U.S. factory jobs and white-collar work to other countries is part of a positive transformation that will enrich the U.S. economy over time, even if it causes short-term pain and dislocation." Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers said "I think outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run," Nearly 2.7 million manufacturing and 1 million professional-services and information-technology jobs have been lost since President Bush took office. Bush told us he would create jobs — he just didn't tell us they would be in China, India and the Philippines. Keeping jobs in America will help to make America stronger. It will provide jobs for Americans, and will put food on the table of hard working Americans. Keeping jobs in America is a good thing. Outsourcing jobs overseas is only good for the corporation.
whats wrong with believing in keeping a seperation of church and state?
George W. Bush is among the most openly religious presidents in U.S. history. A daily Bible reader, he often talks about how Jesus changed his heart. He has spoken, publicly and privately, of hearing God's call to run for the presidency and of praying for God's help since he came into office. The seperation of church and state is getting thinner evry day. Religion is playing a major role in the direction of our great country.
tell me. what is wrong with that?
Nothing is wrong with that. It is your right and duty as an american citizen to question your government. |
bravo! now was that so hard?
i agree with everything you said surprisingly except for one thing...you said
"The answer to the question: Every human, male or female should be given the basic right of choice, and that right should protected and fought for."
Now this would apply to everyone except for the unborn babies right? They seem to be the one group of people you aren't willing to share equal rights with. |
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11/05/2004 08:47:18 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by achiral:
the reason i have a really hard time trying to understand the liberal ideals is exactly this thread...it's all finger pointing, no personal look at your own party, no thoughts that
maybe, just maybe, voter fraud happens on both sides of the political spectrum.
maybe, just maybe, kerry has faults just like bush.
maybe, just maybe, the democrats here and all over the country have a huge problem with dwelling in the past...none of your leaders are inspirational, none of your leaders have ideas about how to solve our world's problems outside of getting rid of "our dumb president".
living in the past is a terrible place to be and is why kerry lost. the democratic party is no longer a party of visionaries, it's a party guilty of having no vision, period, and john kerry presented that as loud as possible for all of america to see. i don't like bush but sure as heck didn't like how kerry spent 100% of his time trying to tear bush down and 0% of his time trying to show america why HE should be president. the last two election candidates for the democrats are proof positive that the democratic party is headed in the wrong direction. it proves that even though bush made blunders in his first term, he still was able to beat kerry by a far wider margin than he beat (well in fact he didn't beat him by popular vote) gore by the first time...this is AFTER all the bad stuff happened.
personally i find my political views socially liberal and fiscally conservative but i can't call myself a member of a party with no vision. |
Actually, I agree with you entirely. Kerry was a very weak candidate, as was Gore. There is something wrong with the Democratic Party that it cannot choose better candidates. Those two were not at all inspirational, as you said, and I agree. But sometimes one has to be a pragmatist, even if it means holding your nose while you pull the lever for a candidate who is far from perfect but much less dangerous than the guy who is presently driving the wagon. |
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11/05/2004 08:52:47 PM · #141 |
achiral,
why are you telling me bravo?
you couldn't answer half of these questions.
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11/05/2004 08:55:14 PM · #142 |
<<< Currently Canada has the most public hospital system in the world: 98% of all Canadian hospital care is paid for by the state, while no other country covers more than 80%. >>>
Why, then, do wealthy Canadians go 'south of the border' for their medical care? |
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11/05/2004 09:10:50 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
The thing that's a mystery to me is, as it seems most participants in this forum are fairly bright and informed people, what on earth could possess you to vote for that freak Bush?? I'd really like a response to this question because, try as I might, I cannot fathom how anyone could do such a thing. Can it be that you all have really been taken in by the lies and manipulations? Can it be that you all don't care that Bush is the most arrogant and irresponsible leader this country has seen in a very long time? Can all of you Bush supporters sincerely defend his policies? Or is it just flat-out, unmitigated hatred for anyone left of center (or maybe you all even hate moderates, who knows?) that drives you to sell out your country and your own best interests? How can you seriously consider yourselves patriots? |
I don't think Bush is any of that, I just think he's a dumbass... |
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11/05/2004 09:11:18 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
<<< Currently Canada has the most public hospital system in the world: 98% of all Canadian hospital care is paid for by the state, while no other country covers more than 80%. >>>
Why, then, do wealthy Canadians go 'south of the border' for their medical care? |
well, the reason "wealthy" canadians come here is because we have the best medical care in the world. Too bad anyone who isn't "wealthy" can't get it, huh? |
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11/05/2004 09:12:17 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
If you're concerned about the election results and whether in fact it was manipulated, here's one thing you can right now: contribute to //blackboxvoting.org/. This organization has already filed one of the largest freedom of information acts to look at how the electronic voting machines recorded the votes -- we already know that fraud has been committed, just do a cursory search of electronic voting machines and recent elections. We cannot let this issue go away, and here's one very small thing you can do today to begin the fight. |
DONE! |
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11/05/2004 09:19:27 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I don't think Bush is any of that, I just think he's a dumbass... |
lol! Yeah, that too. :) |
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11/05/2004 09:26:49 PM · #147 |
I feel for you guys...I can see how both sides are frustrated and it seems to be a psychological civil war down there.
What will you guys do to become a country again?
Or is the division not as dramatic as the media is making it out to be? |
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11/05/2004 09:26:55 PM · #148 |
I could tell you my reasons for voting for Bush, but as I can see in this and in other threads, the basis for my views is not what your basis is, so therefore, you can continue to call "me" a stupid, redneck, Christian, etc. etc. etc.
Some of the "accusations" fit, others don't.
And for everything that has been said against the Republicans, I have heard against the Democrats.
Fact is, our perspective is reality, and anyone without our perspective can't be real. |
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11/05/2004 09:29:01 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Or is the division not as dramatic as the media is making it out to be? |
This is an excellent point. All of the "hardcore" democrats that I know (and in this area, there are a lot of them), they have moved on, and will wait until 2008. Same is true of Republicans.
If it weren't for a few people on these boards, I would still be unenlightened.
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11/05/2004 09:31:35 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by ericlimon:
achiral,
why are you telling me bravo?
you couldn't answer half of these questions. |
i answered your questions...you weren't asking about me, you were asking about you |
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