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02/07/2003 10:58:09 AM · #1 |
that was the theme of the speaker at my camera club yesterday. i'm sure i'm opening a can of worms by bringing this up, but i just have to share some of the comments the speaker made. they made me smile and think "wow, we are not alone on dpc". you may not agree with all of the comments (i didn't), but some ring true, others were eye-openers for me. much of this might not be anything new, but it was interesting to hear this from someone outside of dpc, many of the things definitely are true here.
now, to set the stage (and the judge reiterated that throughout his talk), judging at virginia camera clubs (and i'm sure that holds true for most other photo competitions) involve the judge eliminating x% of the entries and then deciding which of the survivors is the winner. which means, if there are obvious flaws or shortcomings in the photo, you have just given the judge an easy way of throwing your picture out of the competition.
here are some of the obvious things:
technical flaws. focus, overexposure, underexposure. it's easy to throw pictures out that contain them. (just to add perspective to this, at the last competition, the judge gave 1st prize to a photo that was blurred throughout, a panning job of a rider on a horse that had the rider and horse less blurred than the background, but still blurred). sometimes these can be used effectively, but often they get your photo thrown out.
presentation. here he was talking about matting, etc. i think this still applies in the digital competition, especially looking at our on-going discussions and comments on frames. the speaker just said one thing: your mat (frame) becomes an integral part of the photo. if it distracts from the subject of your photo, you have just given the judge another easy photo to throw out.
equipment and effort. here's another one that will start riots: the judge doesn't care if your equipment is inferior or how much effort it took to get the photo (this is verbatim!). the judge judges the image, and nothing else.
composition. he said that many judges throw pictures out because they do not follow the ROT (sound familiar? ;) you'll be glad to hear the speaker said that ROT works sometimes but not always. but ... if you have a judge that throws everything out that does not use ROT, you may want to take that into account.
size and impact. small things can get your photo thrown out. just because your photo is 99% perfect and the 1% has something distracting in it, doesn't mean the 1% will be overlooked. it might just get your image thrown out.
compose for the background. watch your background. don't leave something poking in just a bit, or cut just a smidgen off. crop items, yes, but never allow it to look accidental. if your background competes with your image, again, this might get you thrown out.
horizons. a tilted centered horizon is a judge's favorite ... the easiest thing to throw out. the speaker then took this thought a little further ... for example taking photos up a building and getting converging lines (the perspective challenge immediately came to mind...). work with it by deliberately changing the angle and using the converging lines instead of submitting a photo that contains a tall building that looks as if it is about to fall over.
don't cut off words. humans always want to read the whole word and it can be distracting to try and figure out what the letters mean if you can't see all of them.
no hotspots. too distracting. that lead the speaker to talk about the sky ... he said to always ask yourself if the sky helps your photo. if not, consider excluding it totally.
here's another hotly discussed item from the forums: immediate impact. the judge has to look at so many pictures that immediate impact is important. here came the revelation for me: the pictures you hang on your wall to look at and enjoy and really see all the details are not necessarily the photos you enter for competition where immediate impact is more important!! select your photos specifically for competition, and specifically for hanging on your wall. they may not be the same photos.
relevance. another quote: "if it is a themed competition you have a moral obligation to follow the theme closely". i'm sure this sentence alone will start a riot here ;) but, if a judge feels your photo doesn't follow the theme, they will throw your photo out.
tourist type pictures. nothing wrong with them, everyone takes them and wants them. but unless you have something different in them or an unusual angle, don't submit them to competition. they'll not do well. he then proceeded to talk about the "i've seen better sunsets" syndrome. if you use a commonly photographed subject, make sure it's special and different. otherwise, chances are the judge has seen a better sunset and therefore knows the potential of sunsets and yours might not stand up to it. fair or not, judges often do that. personally, i don't even think it can be helped.
last but not least, remember there's chocolate and vanilla and other flavors of ice-cream. different people simply have different tastes. different opinions on a photo doesn't make you or the judge wrong or right. i think we need to keep that in mind on dpc ... it's sometimes simply a case of different tastes...
and two more quotes i really enjoyed. one from freeman patterson: "there's nothing you can't do with color film except develop it in chicken-noodle soup." i don't know who the other one is from: "a photographer was meant to have 5 legs.". the speaker talked a lot about how imperative it is to always use a tripod and get a sharp and focused photo. :)
so, go out and shoot, just stay away from that chicken-noodle soup! :)
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02/07/2003 11:09:25 AM · #2 |
Brilliant! Thanks for sharing. There are one or two points here which have really made me THINK!
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02/07/2003 11:16:23 AM · #3 |
Wow! Excellent post! Thank you so much for sharing it with us. You should send ot admin. so they can put it under the tutorial section. This is usefull for everyone.
Thanks!
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02/07/2003 11:27:51 AM · #4 |
I agree with Jacko. This is so good so it may not be hidden among all the other threads. Thank you SO much Franziska for sharing.
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02/07/2003 11:38:10 AM · #5 |
Franziska,
Thank you for sharing with us this. Your post conveys some very good information presented in a clear interesting way.
I also agree with Jacko!!
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02/07/2003 11:40:03 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by franziska lang:
and two more quotes i really enjoyed. one from freeman patterson: "there's nothing you can't do with color film except develop it in chicken-noodle soup." i don't know who the other one is from: "a photographer was meant to have 5 legs.". the speaker talked a lot about how imperative it is to always use a tripod and get a sharp and focused photo. :)
so, go out and shoot, just stay away from that chicken-noodle soup! :) |
This is all really sound advice - particularly the points about pictures that are good for competitions not neccessarily being the ones you'd hang on a wall. But the overriding thing that I got from reading this was a burning desire to go and shoot some colour film and find out what happens if I use different chicken noodle soups as developers.
Tell me not to do something and I'll try it until I find out why.... |
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02/07/2003 11:46:51 AM · #7 |
i'm glad you all liked this ... it really was an interesting evening last night. i'll be happy to tidy this up a bit over the weekend and then send it to the admins.
gordon ... once you've completed your chicken-noodle soup research, let me know the results and i'll be happy to include those, too :)
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02/07/2003 12:01:43 PM · #8 |
This post almost exactly resembles the mental checklist I've learned (through painful experience) to go through before submitting to DPC (except the equipment one, which doesn't apply to me anymore). If I ever violate any of those rules it's because I didn't have time to reshoot. I don't think there's anything that can really be argued about here, if you want to rate high on DPC you have to follow each one.
That's if your aim is rating high. If your aim is to express yourself first and foremost, break them all :). In fact, break them all in one photo. I dare you! |
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02/07/2003 12:13:56 PM · #9 |
Gordon,
You going to suggest a chicken noodle soup challenge?
Franziska,
Nice note taking job, thanks for the information.
Maybe we should make the information required reading.
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02/07/2003 12:16:18 PM · #10 |
| I just tried to find the USB port on a colour film can I had laying around, to no avail. I guess it can't really do everything. Thanks for the post Franziska. |
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02/07/2003 12:41:10 PM · #11 |
Thats a really useful set of comments.
don't cut off words. humans always want to read the whole word and it can be distracting to try and figure out what the letters mean if you can't see all of them.
Im a programmer, and occasionally design computer interfaces. Theres loads of stuff like this that crops up in "useability 'engineering'", heres a couple that I think might apply:
Expert vs novice. Experts and novices behave completely differently, and you cannot satisfy both, ever.
Colours. Your "study in green" may be a study in grey for 6% of men. Avoid more than 7 colours, and go for light greys and pastels in the background.
Nearby and Similar things are related. If you want to relate the size of a rowboat to a tanker, put them near each other. If you want to relate two kids to each other, dress then the same.
Things in frames/boxes are related.
Less is more. I could go on for hours about this, but I wont.
The eye is drawn to blank spaces, text, strong contrasts, strong colours and faces. If you dont want the viewer looking at that part of the photo, dont put these things there. A common one is labels on clothing.
The eye is directed by things that point, things that frame, things that are related. If you look at a picture of two kids, you look at one then the other, so dont slap something ugly where the eye is going to travel across. Similarly, dont direct the eye out of frame, and dont accidentaly frame the wrong part of the picture.
Use minimum force. Usually for diagrams, where heavy lines can distract, but applies to heavy frames.
Cultural stuff. Some cultures scan left to right, some top to bottom. In the west, go left to right then top to bottom. Stop is a universally understood word, but liberal has subtle differences between nations. Red is lucky in Asia. Green can get you injured in Glasgow.
Users giving feedback lie. |
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02/07/2003 12:52:58 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by franziska lang:
technical flaws. focus, overexposure, underexposure. it's easy to throw pictures out that contain them. (just to add perspective to this, at the last competition, the judge gave 1st prize to a photo that was blurred throughout, a panning job of a rider on a horse that had the rider and horse less blurred than the background, but still blurred). sometimes these can be used effectively, but often they get your photo thrown out. |
Are you talking about this? It is really blurred. Oh well... Nice post by the way...
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02/07/2003 12:53:09 PM · #13 |
This should be written up and posted as a tutorial on the site.. I hope you will consider doing that :)
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02/07/2003 04:09:29 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
But the overriding thing that I got from reading this was a burning desire to go and shoot some colour film and find out what happens if I use different chicken noodle soups as developers.
Tell me not to do something and I'll try it until I find out why.... |
That was my reflexive thought as well! Of course, minnestrone has a little more the proper color for a developer. After that, maybe split pea or cream of mushroom...
Seriously, great post with many useful suggestions.
Lisae: Give me a specific checklist of rules you want me to break and I'll try and cram them into one photo...sounds like fun. |
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02/07/2003 10:03:54 PM · #15 |
franziska,
Your post was chock full of wonderful information. Thank you so much for sharing with us. In Jan, our camera club had a similar program, with 2 judges giving a lot of the same tips. Unfortunately I DIDN'T take nots. I'm soooooooooooo glad you did. Thanks again!!!
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02/07/2003 11:05:31 PM · #16 |
Awesome Franziska!! Thank you! So glad you will be submitting this to D/L!
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02/08/2003 05:42:27 AM · #17 |
Thanks a lot for this! Loads of useful information here!
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02/08/2003 07:51:52 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Lisae: Give me a specific checklist of rules you want me to break and I'll try and cram them into one photo...sounds like fun. |
OOH! Well, I would say go with:
-One of the technical flaws mentioned in the first point (out of poor focus, overexposure or underexposure) and I will even add camera shake as a 4th flaw.
-An overbearing border (big and/or garish)
-Use a low-end camera badly, if you have one
-Either centre your subject or have it well off to the edge of the photo, anywhere other than on or near a third
-A distracting background
-Tilt
-Either hotspots or a big, overexposed or boring sky
-Relevance doesn't really matter here
-If you take a photo of something touristy or a photographic cliche, you'll get bonus points, but I don't think it's necessary
This could be fun :). If I get time I'll try it myself (although I don't have a low-end camera around anymore). Actually, my photo for the "People" challenge months ago would probably fit all those criteria pretty well :P. (Oh, no border).
Message edited by author 2003-02-08 07:52:34. |
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02/08/2003 10:26:36 AM · #19 |
thanks for that Franziska! I have been suggesting that we get something like that to go with the site for the longest time but didn't have the time or know-how to do it myself :)
I hope you will consider allowing the site admins to integrate it in some form into DPChallenge.
:>))
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02/08/2003 10:34:18 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Lisae: Give me a specific checklist of rules you want me to break and I'll try and cram them into one photo...sounds like fun. |
OOH! Well, I would say go with:
... |
I've emailed the list to myself so I can print it more easily. Can we allow ourselves 2-3 weeks for this? I'm still working on submissions for this week!
We can shoot in low-quality mode to simulate a cheap camera. Gosh, if I want to over/under-expose I'll have to take the camera off Auto mode...now where did I put that manual?
Maybe this will make up for having my suggestion for a "worst photo" challenge so cruelly rejected... |
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02/08/2003 11:00:11 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I've emailed the list to myself so I can print it more easily. Can we allow ourselves 2-3 weeks for this? I'm still working on submissions for this week!
We can shoot in low-quality mode to simulate a cheap camera. Gosh, if I want to over/under-expose I'll have to take the camera off Auto mode...now where did I put that manual? |
Sounds good :). I'll try it out too! |
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