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10/01/2013 07:40:45 AM · #376 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
All the chatter I am seeing all over the internet is "It's those damn Republicans!", "It's the dumbocrats!", "It's Obama!" and even let's blame it all on the Tea Party. Pfft. Nothing is more aggravating to me than so many people laying all the blame on their ideological opposition. As Cory mentioned, the SYSTEM is BROKEN. And as long as we keep this bullshit up, it will only get worse. |
The Speaker of the House will not "allow" a vote on the Senate's version of the Continuing Resolution because (with a combination of some "moderate" Republicans and Democrats) it would PASS. He will not allow such a vote, because he fears a Tea Party backlash and a primary challenge for his own position. Essentially, about 10% of the Congress is holding the country hostage, saying "unless we can prevent millions of people from getting health insurance we're shutting down the government."
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 07:41:12. |
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10/01/2013 08:31:17 AM · #377 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
All the chatter I am seeing all over the internet is "It's those damn Republicans!", "It's the dumbocrats!", "It's Obama!" and even let's blame it all on the Tea Party. Pfft. Nothing is more aggravating to me than so many people laying all the blame on their ideological opposition. As Cory mentioned, the SYSTEM is BROKEN. And as long as we keep this bullshit up, it will only get worse. |
They are all to blame for the shutdown... Obama, the dems and the repubs
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10/01/2013 01:28:00 PM · #378 |
Look, when people "blame" the tea party and the Republicans in general for this particular shutdown, there is a reason for it:
The Affordable Care Act was signed into LAW by both Republicans and Democrats in, I believe, 2010. Now it's late in 2013, the ACA is scheduled, BY LAW, to begin full implementation in January 2014, and a Republican-controlled congress is holding the whole country hostage because they don't want to allow this lawfully-enacted project to go forward.
The ACA as it exists now ALREADY reflects significant compromises made with the Republicans in order to get it passed in the first place.
You can argue all you want that it's a bad law, that it shouldn't have been passed, that it costs too much, yada yada yada, but it doesn't change the fact that a small group of people has caused the shutdown of the United States Government because they can't get their way. It's reprehensible. The way to "stop" the ACA if it's truly a bad law is to repeal it in a lawful manner. What's going on now is BS. |
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10/01/2013 01:35:59 PM · #379 |
I heard a suggestion earlier today that the next time the bill to fund the military comes up, the Democrats should refuse to pass it unless universal Federal gun registration and a 30% increase in the corporate income tax is included ... of course an equally impractical idea in reality, but in principle no different than the current debacle ...
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 13:36:22. |
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10/01/2013 01:49:34 PM · #380 |
Reprehensible is a good word for it, Robert.
Also reprehensible is the reporting on FOX, which has just downplayed the significance of it all because the markets are up. |
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10/01/2013 02:36:56 PM · #381 |
In my office today, the blame game is running about 50/50. Those blaming Obama are saying he refused to negotiate. I'm glad he refused and wish he'd gone a little farther and pulled the 14th amendment out on them with an executive order not to shut down the government.
If he had budged just a little bit on this, the few Republicans who are causing all this would continue to ignore due process. I don't really see the Tea Party learning from this, but I think it's opened the eyes of some of the senior Republicans. Hopefully it's not too late for them to regain control.
If they really thought Obamacare was going to fail, why not let it and ride it to the 2014 and 2016 elections? Because, IMO, they're more afraid it's going to work and that by this time next year, people will realize it.
Don't get me started on FOX and talk radio. They are as much to blame as the young Tea Party, if not more. They invented, organized, funded, and promoted them.
ETA: I don't usually rant in here, but the students here at work are driving me crazy with their Fox News BS and I can't yell at them so I'm venting here.
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 14:39:59. |
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10/01/2013 02:47:34 PM · #382 |
Those who are happy to have shut down government are true believers. They know they are right, so they will act in accord with their beliefs.
On the news you hear them talk about how the American people want this law repealed, and how it is unconstitutional.
Despite the fact that they have wasted Congress' time and brought to a floor vote 40 times various bills to defund or nulify the ACA, and failed every time.
Despite the fact that the only legal arbiter of constitutionality, the SCOTUS has already ruled last June that the law passes muster.
Despite the fact that polling shows that despite massive disinformation and confusion about the ACA, only 33% of Americans favor defunding the act.
So you have a minority in a position to halt all government if they don't get their way, despite the fact that their justification for their action is demonstrably false. But they believe.
And there are those who cheer, who are happy the federal government is crippled. But there are two powers in America today, the government and the corporations. When you tear down government, the scales tip to the power of the corporations. You may cheer the fall of the governmental system that ought to be protecting the people, because it is flawed; but I do not think a system where corporations holds all the power would be a better world.
Originally posted by cynthiann:
Don't get me started on FOX and talk radio. They are as much to blame as the young Tea Party, if not more. They invented, organized, funded, and promoted them. |
Don't blame the tool, blame the hand that wields the tool. The talking points put into the mouth of the Fox talking heads are invented and refined by those who work for the hyper wealthy interests. Look to those who created and funded the grass roots movement.The Billionaires Bankrolling the Tea Party from 2010.
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 15:03:04. |
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10/01/2013 02:48:49 PM · #383 |
Blaming one side or the other is useless.
Both are to blame, and both should be held accountable. |
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10/01/2013 02:55:17 PM · #384 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Both are to blame [...] |
How so? Please explain.
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10/01/2013 02:55:33 PM · #385 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Look, when people "blame" the tea party and the Republicans in general for this particular shutdown, there is a reason for it:
The Affordable Care Act was signed into LAW by both Republicans and Democrats in, I believe, 2010. Now it's late in 2013, the ACA is scheduled, BY LAW, to begin full implementation in January 2014, and a Republican-controlled congress is holding the whole country hostage because they don't want to allow this lawfully-enacted project to go forward.
The ACA as it exists now ALREADY reflects significant compromises made with the Republicans in order to get it passed in the first place.
You can argue all you want that it's a bad law, that it shouldn't have been passed, that it costs too much, yada yada yada, but it doesn't change the fact that a small group of people has caused the shutdown of the United States Government because they can't get their way. It's reprehensible. The way to "stop" the ACA if it's truly a bad law is to repeal it in a lawful manner. What's going on now is BS. |
LIKE. If the individual mandate was so bad, then House Republicans wouldn't have spent years in the 90s trying to implement it (or praising their presidential candidate for doing so). If the ACA law was so expensive, then House Republicans wouldn't have included it as a $109B deficit reduction in their own budget. If the ACA raised insurance rates, Boehner would be calling on everyone to check out the exchanges and see how bad it is. If the ACA was really crushing business owners (96% of small businesses have less than 50 employees and 97% of big businesses already offer insurance), then we wouldn't need to hear anecdotal instances amid a roar of industry collapse. If Obamacare was so darn sure to be a disaster, then Republicans would be doing everything in their power to make sure it happens as-is to capitalize on the downfall of a policy with their opponents' name all over it! The Tea Party in particular has invested a lot in this story, but it's bogus... and Ted Cruz has been conspicuously absent from the spotlight since the bluff was called. |
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10/01/2013 03:06:54 PM · #386 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Blaming one side or the other is useless.
Both are to blame, and both should be held accountable. |
Yes it is always both sides at fault in any argument. If only the Jews had been more reasonable, Hitler could have found a better solution. |
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10/01/2013 03:08:45 PM · #387 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Cory:
Both are to blame [...] |
How so? Please explain. |
We live in a world where a system of governance has been established in which there are two parties both of which are nearly indistinguishable from one another when it comes down to it (note that the major positions of each party have actually drifted so far as to reverse over time), and that the population is left worrying about trying to 'keep the wrong guy out' that they're too damned busy to notice that the 'right guy' walked out the door long ago.
It is quite strongly my opinion that the our entire 'democratic' process has been created and gradually moulded such that it now serves as more of a tool for distraction than anything else, and serves the dual-purpose of dividing the citizens and keeping them arguing with each other about which side is to blame, rather than actually recognizing the truth.
In any case, my perfect world solution would be to remove the representatives and go direct referendum on all major votes.
Additionally, the financial waste that occurs with each election cycle is just appalling. We need to use that energy to do something useful - imagine a world where we didn't invest our time, energy, emotions, and finances into this clearly broken way of doing things. What would we accomplish? What have we lost already?
.. That's what I mean. |
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10/01/2013 03:10:33 PM · #388 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Yes it is always both sides at fault in any argument. If only the Jews had been more reasonable, Hitler could have found a better solution. |
Zing. |
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10/01/2013 03:11:30 PM · #389 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
Blaming one side or the other is useless.
Both are to blame, and both should be held accountable. |
Yes it is always both sides at fault in any argument. If only the Jews had been more reasonable, Hitler could have found a better solution. |
Ahh, again, the dualistic western mind at work.
What, if instead, Hitler had remained a sad little man with his single vote, what if we didn't rely upon others to do our thinking for us? Would any Jews have died? Doubtful.
And by the way, I am admittedly a bit disappointed that you thought the Godwin route was a useful direction here. In any case, you helped me to illustrate the point clearly enough. |
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10/01/2013 03:25:56 PM · #390 |
Originally posted by Cory:
And by the way, I am admittedly a bit disappointed that you thought the Godwin route was a useful direction here. In any case, you helped me to illustrate the point clearly enough. |
Another dodge. Another..."if only things were perfect".
So you said both sides where to blame on this equally and then launched into Cory's perfect world fantasy land.
Step back to the real world and answer Judith's question. You may think you have illustrated your point clearly but all I have heard is " a pox on both your houses" and that you can not see what anyone is arguing about. I know you don't believe in the system, that you don't vote ect.ect. but you are a smart guy. Can you really not see any differences between the two sides fighting here?
And the vague hand waving over "the dualistic western mind at work" is a canard. Dualism is at least as much an eastern concept as western, in fact it always comes down to picking one thing over another if you want to get something done. If you want to sit back and let others do the heavy lifting, then feel free to join the chattering classes who sigh with great approbation over the sad fact that their perfect solutions are never implemented.
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 15:28:11. |
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10/01/2013 03:33:37 PM · #391 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
And by the way, I am admittedly a bit disappointed that you thought the Godwin route was a useful direction here. In any case, you helped me to illustrate the point clearly enough. |
Another dodge. Another..."if only things were perfect".
So you said both sides where to blame on this equally and then launched into Cory's perfect world fantasy land.
Step back to the real world and answer Judith's question. You may think you have illustrated your point clearly but all I have heard is " a pox on both your houses" and that you can not see what anyone is arguing about. I know you don't believe in the system, that you don't vote ect.ect. but you are a smart guy. Can you really not see any differences between the two sides fighting here?
And the vague hand waving over "the dualistic western mind at work" is a canard. Dualism is at least as much an eastern concept as western, in fact it always comes down to picking one thing over another if you want to get something done. If you want to sit back and let others do the heavy lifting, then feel free to join the chattering classes who sigh with great approbation over the sad fact that their perfect solutions are never implemented. |
I can see plenty of differences, but in the end, they've proven that they are not able to work together to find solutions. What more do we need to know, really?
My solution is simple, and I've been clear about it. National Referendum, get rid of the intermediates which are screwing everything up. I promise it wouldn't be even close to perfect, shit, there'd be all kinds of trouble, but at least we wouldn't be subject to this sort of crap. Feels like we're being held hostage by our employees about once a year, and yet we let them return to work the next Monday and just pretend nothing happened. Really, it's about time we stop accepting this as being 'normal'...
..
And ETA: Yes, I know that one side is much more to blame for shitty tactics than the other right now. That is clear. Doesn't really make much difference to me though.
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 15:35:57. |
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10/01/2013 04:22:21 PM · #392 |
How about something like Australia's Double dissolution? Yeah, I know, congress would have to pass it. Maybe we could sneak it into one of the bills they never read.
We have a major fundamental problem if we cannot regain control of our government through our current system. |
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10/01/2013 04:39:35 PM · #393 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
How about something like Australia's Double dissolution? Yeah, I know, congress would have to pass it. Maybe we could sneak it into one of the bills they never read.
We have a major fundamental problem if we cannot regain control of our government through our current system. |
Great idea, unfortunately, they'd never pass it. |
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10/01/2013 05:03:44 PM · #394 |
Years of Bogus, 'Both Sides to Blame' Coverage Have Emboldened Radical Republicans
Excerpt:
Indeed, if ever there were a scenario where it was blindly obvious both sides are definitely not to blame, this would be it. In this case Democrats have mostly been forced to be spectators as they watch a civil war unfold within the Republican Party between its far-right Tea Party allies and the rest of the GOP that wants to keep the government running. It's a rump faction of as few as 30 hardcore House Republicans who refuse to support a clean bill funding the government (and the GOP leadership which has refused to stand up to them) that precipitated the shutdown.
Unfortunately, old press habits die hard and the "both-sides-are-to-blame" angle continues to be invoked by journalists who should know better.
Writing at The Atlantic, James Fallows warned news consumers to be on the lookout for bouts of phony false equivalence in shutdown coverage and commentary [italics original]:
As a matter of journalism, any story that presents the disagreements as a "standoff," a "showdown," a "failure of leadership," a sign of "partisan gridlock," or any of the other usual terms for political disagreement, represents a failure of journalism and an inability to see or describe what is going on. |
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10/01/2013 05:21:11 PM · #395 |
Interesting read Judith. I particularly liked:
"And now, rather than seeing the health care obstructionism as part of an obvious Republican continuum, and rather than noting it followed the gun law obstructionism, which followed the sequester obstructionism, which followed the Chuck Hagel confirmation obstructionism, which followed the Hurricane Sandy emergency relief obstructionism, which followed consistent obstructionism on juridicial nominees, the press remains reluctant to connect the obvious dots that help paint the portrait of a truly radical Republican party."
But you still get traction after all this time with the "Wow, Obama will talk to Iran, but he just won't sit down with us." talking point the folks behind the shutdown are trotting out. |
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10/01/2013 05:33:03 PM · #396 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
But you still get traction after all this time with the "Wow, Obama will talk to Iran, but he just won't sit down with us." talking point the folks behind the shutdown are trotting out. |
Jon Stewart deals with that beautifully. |
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10/01/2013 05:44:42 PM · #397 |
YAY! Now I'll post an opposing viewpoint - neither of which I have read completely, and neither of which I would agree with completely but who cares - let's just play tennis all day.
(fixed typo)
Message edited by author 2013-10-01 17:45:12. |
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10/01/2013 05:56:48 PM · #398 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
YAY! Now I'll post an opposing viewpoint - neither of which I have read completely, and neither of which I would agree with completely but who cares - let's just play tennis all day.
(fixed typo) |
I actually read that, and it proves that when contributing to a blog on politics, it is more important to have an Internet connection than to poses even the most basic understanding of how government works.
I agree that the false dichotomy is a fool's choice and that the system is broken, but people still have to be willing to hold others accountable, and cynicism and apathy do us no favors. |
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10/01/2013 05:57:15 PM · #399 |
| I guess I'm old enough to not get upset over this shutdown. Here is the 17 times the gov's been shut down. |
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10/01/2013 05:59:15 PM · #400 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
cynicism and apathy do us no favors. |
cynicism and apathy are the only legal, non-violent recourse I have. :P |
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