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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> "Let's stomp on Constitutional Amendments" thread
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06/13/2013 01:26:35 AM · #301
Originally posted by Erastus:

It even has Obama on the right. Did you see that???? Horse hockey.

...or is it?? :P
06/13/2013 01:31:49 AM · #302
I just wonder how they got Hitler and Stalin to go on line and fill out their survey.
06/13/2013 02:02:36 AM · #303
Originally posted by Cory:

Interesting - There's a petition on the White House site demanding Obama resign.

A thought occurred to me right after I signed it.
06/13/2013 09:22:36 AM · #304
i love everyone calling for Obama to resign. They do realize who takes over, right?
06/13/2013 10:41:56 AM · #305
Man, ain't that that the truth. And he's been acting flakier and flakier recently. I was truly astounded when O won his first election with that idiot as a running mate. But take this a step further Cory. What if both O and Biden are not fit to serve? AAAAAIIIEEEEEE!!!!! Run for the hills. The speaker as the prez?!

We need Art for president! Slippy for vice-prez!
06/13/2013 11:16:03 AM · #306
Originally posted by Erastus:

Man, ain't that that the truth. And he's been acting flakier and flakier recently. I was truly astounded when O won his first election with that idiot as a running mate. But take this a step further Cory. What if both O and Biden are not fit to serve? AAAAAIIIEEEEEE!!!!! Run for the hills. The speaker as the prez?!

We need Art for president! Slippy for vice-prez!


Heh.. I didn't say I signed it.

Frankly, there isn't a good option in the lot of them as I see it.

I say we need a lottery - based on a system that is sorta like a meritocracy, in that every citizen takes a general aptitude test (much like the ASVAB), and those who are qualified are entered into a random drawing, and are legally required to serve in the role they are 'elected' to for the normal period of that position.

The exceptions would be the Justices of the Supreme Court, and pretty much no-one else. Obviously the aptitude battery would need to account for the abilities needed for each role a person may be elected to, from County Assessor on up to POTUS.

It really is likely to be the only system that is more or less immune to corruption and scheming, and at the very least we'd get people qualified to to the job. Think about it - who do we pick as it stands today - the best person for the job, or the person best at convincing you they'd be good at the job? Seems a small distinction, but in reality the difference is huge, and I think that this is the biggest hurdle which we'll eventually have to face.
06/13/2013 11:19:19 AM · #307
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Futile as it sounds, I'm all for impeachment, a complete purge of congress and criminal charges for all the violations of the past by all those involved - yes, I am fine with throwing GWB on trial for his myriad of constitutional and criminal offenses as well. From all the wars, to the banking bailouts to the stealing and squandering of the people's money - hang 'em all!!


I'm all for holding people accountable. But let's say you could accomplish your purge of Congress, and even throw people in jail. What then? Who do you think will replace all those folks, and will they act differently? If you don't do anything to change the underlying incentive structure, the things that ail government will only get worse and we'll end up with the same corrupt results.

I still say that for all of Obama's failings, we're lucky to have him -- he's the only adult in the room.
06/13/2013 11:48:15 AM · #308
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Futile as it sounds, I'm all for impeachment, a complete purge of congress and criminal charges for all the violations of the past by all those involved - yes, I am fine with throwing GWB on trial for his myriad of constitutional and criminal offenses as well. From all the wars, to the banking bailouts to the stealing and squandering of the people's money - hang 'em all!!


I'm all for holding people accountable. But let's say you could accomplish your purge of Congress, and even throw people in jail. What then? Who do you think will replace all those folks, and will they act differently? If you don't do anything to change the underlying incentive structure, the things that ail government will only get worse and we'll end up with the same corrupt results.

I still say that for all of Obama's failings, we're lucky to have him -- he's the only adult in the room.


What about my suggestion above your post?

A lottery based on merit would actually solve about 95% of our problems in terms of quality and motivation of elected candidates.
06/13/2013 11:56:33 AM · #309
Originally posted by Erastus:

This is why I think that test is bogus. It's got me slightly below Ghandi. Complete BS. It even has Obama on the right. Did you see that???? Horse hockey.


I did notice that and I think that does smell a bit funny. The idea that I'm more liberal than Obama to a much larger extent than he is to Romney does seem wrong. It's only an online tool AND the accuracy for these political figures is only as good as the proxy who is answering the questions for them.
06/13/2013 11:57:23 AM · #310
Originally posted by Cory:

A lottery based on merit would actually solve about 95% of our problems in terms of quality and motivation of elected candidates.

I love how you throw numbers around :-) How the HECK did you arrive at that precise figure?

Regarding a public-service lottery, in principle I have always sort of liked the idea, but in a sense that's the problem: it would require a highly principled population to make the system work.

Then there's Plato's idea, to basically breed and educate a ruling class, people whose sole reason for existing would be to run a government for the citizens...
06/13/2013 12:14:32 PM · #311
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:

A lottery based on merit would actually solve about 95% of our problems in terms of quality and motivation of elected candidates.

I love how you throw numbers around :-) How the HECK did you arrive at that precise figure?

Regarding a public-service lottery, in principle I have always sort of liked the idea, but in a sense that's the problem: it would require a highly principled population to make the system work.

Then there's Plato's idea, to basically breed and educate a ruling class, people whose sole reason for existing would be to run a government for the citizens...


:) 95% seemed about right - granted, it'd cause an additional set of problems, but mostly there'd be a vast improvement in quality IMO.

The principled part is accounted for in the aptitude battery testing.

I think Plato's idea is pretty much what we have now, is it not? Granted, he was talking about a leadership class that actually wanted to help the people, not fill their own pockets - but the basic structure is astonishingly similar, especially when you consider how many multi-generational political families we have in this country. At some point, if your father was a senator, then it's expected that you'll enter the game as well - and if your father was a steel worker, you can probably forget about running for any office of significance.
06/13/2013 01:01:05 PM · #312
Originally posted by Cory:



I say we need a lottery - based on a system that is sorta like a meritocracy, in that every citizen takes a general aptitude test (much like the ASVAB), and those who are qualified are entered into a random drawing, and are legally required to serve in the role they are 'elected' to for the normal period of that position.


The people most qualified would refuse to serve.
06/13/2013 02:01:50 PM · #313
Originally posted by Cory:

I say we need a lottery - based on a system that is sorta like a meritocracy, in that every citizen takes a general aptitude test (much like the ASVAB), and those who are qualified are entered into a random drawing, and are legally required to serve in the role they are 'elected' to for the normal period of that position.


Who authors the test and decides on qualifications?
06/13/2013 02:41:29 PM · #314
Originally posted by Cory:

if your father was a steel worker, you can probably forget about running for any office of significance.


Joe Biden's father, Joseph Biden Sr., worked cleaning furnaces and as a used car salesman.
Bill Clinton's father William Jefferson "Bill" Blythe, Jr. was an Arkansas salesman of heavy equipment.
John Boehner's father, Earl Henry Boehner ran a bar.
Harry Reid's father, Harry Vincent Reid was a miner.

06/13/2013 02:59:26 PM · #315
Originally posted by Cory:

I think Plato's idea is pretty much what we have now, is it not? Granted, he was talking about a leadership class that actually wanted to help the people, not fill their own pockets - but the basic structure is astonishingly similar, especially when you consider how many multi-generational political families we have in this country. At some point, if your father was a senator, then it's expected that you'll enter the game as well - and if your father was a steel worker, you can probably forget about running for any office of significance.

No, it's not even close to what we have now. For one thing, Plato's ruling-class is not allowed to own property...

Originally posted by wiki:

Aristocracy

Aristocracy is the form of government (politeia) advocated in Plato's Republic. This regime is ruled by a philosopher king, and thus is grounded on wisdom and reason. The aristocratic state, and the man whose nature corresponds to it, are the objects of Plato's analyses throughout much of The Republic's books, as opposed to the other four types of states/men, that are studied primarily in Book VIII.

The aristocratic state that Plato idealizes is composed of three caste-like parts: the ruling class, made up of the aforementioned philosophers-kings (who are otherwise identified as having souls of gold); the auxiliaries of the ruling caste, made up of soldiers (whose souls are made up of silver), and whose job in the state is to force on the majority the order established by the philosophers; and the majority of the people (souls of either bronze or iron), who in contrast to the first two classes are allowed to own property and produce goods for themselves, but are also obliged to sustain with their own activities their rulers' - who are forbidden from owning property.

The aristocratic man is better represented by Plato's brand of philosopher: a man whose character and ambitions have been forged into those ideal for a just ruler through a rigorous education system designed to train intellectuals that are selfless and upright, and whose souls have been made calm and aware of the absolute Good by learning the Truth based on the Platonic Ideas. Plato envisages for this philosopher a disposition and ability that makes him the ideal governor of any state precisely because his soul knows the Truth of the Good and he is therefore not only dedicated to establishing the Good in the state but is also incapable of desiring anything but the Good, for both the state and himself. Thus this man is not tempted to abuse power for his own gain; and, through his knowledge of the true virtues, is able to establish the ideal conditions for the citizens of his state to live the Good life.

In contrast to historical aristocracies, Plato's resembles a meritocracy or proto-technocracy of sorts. In it, a big government state keeps track of the innate character and natural skills of the citizens' children, and then directs them to the education that best suits those traits. In this manner, a child with a gold soul born to parents with silver, bronze or iron souls will be educated to levels above his kin according to his golden qualities, and, conversely, from parents with gold and silver souls, a child born with a bronze or an iron soul is educated to only the level earned by his natural aptitudes.

Of course, this is almost certainly an unobtainable sort of ideal, don't get me wrong, but it WOULD be nice, assumint one wasn't the rebelliouys type. Which, come to think, puts you at odds with Plato's State as well :-)
06/13/2013 03:08:59 PM · #316
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Cory:

if your father was a steel worker, you can probably forget about running for any office of significance.


Joe Biden's father, Joseph Biden Sr., worked cleaning furnaces and as a used car salesman.
Bill Clinton's father William Jefferson "Bill" Blythe, Jr. was an Arkansas salesman of heavy equipment.
John Boehner's father, Earl Henry Boehner ran a bar.
Harry Reid's father, Harry Vincent Reid was a miner.

Ronald Reagan's father was an alcoholic shoe salesman.
Richard Nixon's father ran what would now be called a convenience store; Nixon grew up in near-poverty.
Jimmy Carter's father was a farmer.
06/13/2013 03:13:28 PM · #317
have we we discussed Obama's parents?
06/13/2013 03:17:57 PM · #318
Originally posted by Mike:

have we we discussed Obama's parents?

Nah, that's "current events"; this is an "ancient history" class :-)
06/13/2013 03:36:52 PM · #319
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Cory:

if your father was a steel worker, you can probably forget about running for any office of significance.


Joe Biden's father, Joseph Biden Sr., worked cleaning furnaces and as a used car salesman.
Bill Clinton's father William Jefferson "Bill" Blythe, Jr. was an Arkansas salesman of heavy equipment.
John Boehner's father, Earl Henry Boehner ran a bar.
Harry Reid's father, Harry Vincent Reid was a miner.

Ronald Reagan's father was an alcoholic shoe salesman.
Richard Nixon's father ran what would now be called a convenience store; Nixon grew up in near-poverty.
Jimmy Carter's father was a farmer.

Wasn't Harry Truman a haberdasher?
06/13/2013 03:38:41 PM · #320
To quote the great English poet Taupin:

"It’s sad. So sad. It’s a sad, sad situation. And it’s growing more and more absurd"

From this site on spelling ...
06/13/2013 05:17:04 PM · #321
One possible solution to the surveillance state: Bill Moyers - Using Coders to Protect Our Privacy
06/13/2013 06:06:35 PM · #322
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Cory:

if your father was a steel worker, you can probably forget about running for any office of significance.


Joe Biden's father, Joseph Biden Sr., worked cleaning furnaces and as a used car salesman.
Bill Clinton's father William Jefferson "Bill" Blythe, Jr. was an Arkansas salesman of heavy equipment.
John Boehner's father, Earl Henry Boehner ran a bar.
Harry Reid's father, Harry Vincent Reid was a miner.

Ronald Reagan's father was an alcoholic shoe salesman.
Richard Nixon's father ran what would now be called a convenience store; Nixon grew up in near-poverty.
Jimmy Carter's father was a farmer.


This is why I think the term "plutocracy" is a bit erroneous. I know what is meant by the declaration, but it's overstated. Compare ourselves to, say, Russia and I think we can feel fairly good about our position (even if it is far from perfect).
06/13/2013 06:14:54 PM · #323
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:

A lottery based on merit would actually solve about 95% of our problems in terms of quality and motivation of elected candidates.

I love how you throw numbers around :-) How the HECK did you arrive at that precise figure?

Regarding a public-service lottery, in principle I have always sort of liked the idea, but in a sense that's the problem: it would require a highly principled population to make the system work.

Then there's Plato's idea, to basically breed and educate a ruling class, people whose sole reason for existing would be to run a government for the citizens...


...and a well informed population might also prove of value, but we can always hope.

Ray
06/13/2013 06:20:43 PM · #324
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Cory:

A lottery based on merit would actually solve about 95% of our problems in terms of quality and motivation of elected candidates.

I love how you throw numbers around :-) How the HECK did you arrive at that precise figure?

Regarding a public-service lottery, in principle I have always sort of liked the idea, but in a sense that's the problem: it would require a highly principled population to make the system work.

Then there's Plato's idea, to basically breed and educate a ruling class, people whose sole reason for existing would be to run a government for the citizens...


...and a well informed population might also prove of value, but we can always hope.

Ray


And given that neither is likely to be true, don't you agree that an unprincipled and uninformed population will almost always make the wrong choice? Especially when compounded by the fact that deception is the trait which is being actively rewarded.

I say it again - we can't do better than a random lottery from a merit-based pool of candidates. And there should be a strict set of laws applicable to, and expectations upon, those who hold the offices. Screw up and go away, do something criminal and be put away.

Message edited by author 2013-06-13 18:22:55.
06/13/2013 07:17:17 PM · #325
Even if you came up with the perfect system. I highly doubt the current lawmakers would adopt it.

Revolution would be in order, and with that statement I just got put on the NSA watchlist.
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