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02/04/2013 08:18:50 AM · #26
The problem is this: it's just like anything else in the world -- people see the bad more than the good.

The good that comes from the church is truly incredible. I can speak for my experience in two churches. It's not a wide experience, but I know a large number of people who can speak with the same experiences. Our church is an amazing, giving community that isn't just about themselves and their own congregation, but is also involved in the community and is constantly giving with every resource it has. If you are in need -- it is there -- spiritually, physically and emotionally. No strings attached.

I know that there's only so much that parent's can do when raising children, I think a church community helps add another positive, kind, caring, moral role model for children. There are benefits that aren't always seen.

Unfortunately, people see the outspoken fanatics that are completely overboard and see the church as brainwashing. Personally, I'm free to believe what I want. I have no problem believe in God and evolution. I can handle both. I think DeSousa's photos are truly incredible pieces of art, and I wanted to do the far side's version of noah's ark and the dinosaurs for biblical, but my pictures of giraffes and elephants at the zoo didn't work out. I think God has a sense of humor, and so do I.

The majority of Christians are kind, thoughtful, open minded, accepting people. It's gotten to the point where we're afraid to even speak about anything because we're pounced upon by either side -- the zealots or the atheists. So I sit back and watch instead.

Message edited by author 2013-02-04 08:25:37.
02/04/2013 08:26:03 AM · #27
Heaven apparently has a cover charge.
02/04/2013 08:57:31 AM · #28
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by vawendy:

naw... just saying Catholics did have some history... :)


Don't worry Wendy. I know you aren't an enemy of religion. ;)


Religion is religion's biggest enemy.


You should just play it safe and say man is man's biggest enemy. Both statements contain truth.


Perhaps religion is man's greastest enemy? :-)
02/04/2013 09:11:30 AM · #29
Originally posted by mike_311:



... but the church is an entirely different animal, and throughout history has been more to the detriment of mankind than its benefits.


here the point for me also...

i do not believe in god, of any kind, but i do not believe absolutely of the church as institution, too much rich to speak to the poors with the right attitude, too much power in the hands of few. I live in italy and i can see as here the vatican commands on politicians are really true blackmail. With all their wealth would end world hunger.

sorry, but are only my personal thoughts, i'm for universal freedom! ;-)

I hope that I have not made ​​any enemies, I am always a friend to all, regardless of race or religion!

Message edited by author 2013-02-04 09:12:58.
02/04/2013 10:26:42 AM · #30
Organized religion is a business.
02/04/2013 10:58:40 AM · #31
Originally posted by Kelli:

While in the hospital, she was offered communion and replied that she couldn't take it because she had been excommunicated. When questioned about why she explained it was because she married outside the church (married a man of a different religion (Episcopal)). Then she was told that since that doesn't matter anymore, she could fill out a form, pay an $800 fee and be re-instated so she could receive communion.


This doesn't seem right.

You cannot be excommunicated for marrying outside of the church. I did the same thing (married outside the church) and just had my marriage convalidated or blessed. It was a simple ceremony. They ask for a donation around $20 or $50. No where near $800. It's also a donation, so it isn't required.
02/04/2013 12:00:54 PM · #32
Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Kelli:

While in the hospital, she was offered communion and replied that she couldn't take it because she had been excommunicated. When questioned about why she explained it was because she married outside the church (married a man of a different religion (Episcopal)). Then she was told that since that doesn't matter anymore, she could fill out a form, pay an $800 fee and be re-instated so she could receive communion.


This doesn't seem right.

You cannot be excommunicated for marrying outside of the church. I did the same thing (married outside the church) and just had my marriage convalidated or blessed. It was a simple ceremony. They ask for a donation around $20 or $50. No where near $800. It's also a donation, so it isn't required.


Back in 1963 you could and were.
02/04/2013 12:22:20 PM · #33
Originally posted by mike_311:

its always been about the church. why do you think some of the dead sea scrolls were never acknowledges as part of the bible, especially those that talk about the supposed teachings of Jesus as saying you don't need the church, any place can be your church.
.


Hehe. I can't let this go. Can you provide the name of the scroll and the text of your quote for us Mike?
02/04/2013 12:49:54 PM · #34
OK, during some further research just for the heck of it I found this...

9)How do I start the process? Is it very expensive? How long does it take?
A)By contacting your parish priest or deacon. The fee to process the formal case is $400, this represents less than one-half the cost of the process, and the balance is provided by the Annual Diocesan Appeal. In the case of need assistance can be obtained. No one is denied access to the Court due to financial limitations. The length of time varies with each case; you should plan on at least a year. In 2010 the average processing time for a case in our diocese was eight months. All cases are processed in the order the Tribunal receives them.

//www.dmdiocese.org/divorced-and-catholic-faqs.cfm

For the record my mother was married three times. Two divorces, one death. So I'm assuming the $800 is the $400 fee needed to cover the two marriages where the other person is still alive.

eta: I may be wrong about this, because her excommunication was for marrying outside the church. But from other reading that appears to have been lifted in 1966 (thanks Wendy).

Message edited by author 2013-02-04 12:52:54.
02/04/2013 01:16:22 PM · #35
Originally posted by Kelli:

OK, during some further research just for the heck of it I found this...

9)How do I start the process? Is it very expensive? How long does it take?
A)By contacting your parish priest or deacon. The fee to process the formal case is $400, this represents less than one-half the cost of the process, and the balance is provided by the Annual Diocesan Appeal. In the case of need assistance can be obtained. No one is denied access to the Court due to financial limitations. The length of time varies with each case; you should plan on at least a year. In 2010 the average processing time for a case in our diocese was eight months. All cases are processed in the order the Tribunal receives them.

//www.dmdiocese.org/divorced-and-catholic-faqs.cfm

For the record my mother was married three times. Two divorces, one death. So I'm assuming the $800 is the $400 fee needed to cover the two marriages where the other person is still alive.

eta: I may be wrong about this, because her excommunication was for marrying outside the church. But from other reading that appears to have been lifted in 1966 (thanks Wendy).


Oh, this is the annulment process. That does take time, money, and investigation. My wife also went through that process. It took about 6 months. The fee can be waved for hardships.
02/04/2013 03:14:30 PM · #36
Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Kelli:

OK, during some further research just for the heck of it I found this...

9)How do I start the process? Is it very expensive? How long does it take?
A)By contacting your parish priest or deacon. The fee to process the formal case is $400, this represents less than one-half the cost of the process, and the balance is provided by the Annual Diocesan Appeal. In the case of need assistance can be obtained. No one is denied access to the Court due to financial limitations. The length of time varies with each case; you should plan on at least a year. In 2010 the average processing time for a case in our diocese was eight months. All cases are processed in the order the Tribunal receives them.

//www.dmdiocese.org/divorced-and-catholic-faqs.cfm

For the record my mother was married three times. Two divorces, one death. So I'm assuming the $800 is the $400 fee needed to cover the two marriages where the other person is still alive.

eta: I may be wrong about this, because her excommunication was for marrying outside the church. But from other reading that appears to have been lifted in 1966 (thanks Wendy).


Oh, this is the annulment process. That does take time, money, and investigation. My wife also went through that process. It took about 6 months. The fee can be waved for hardships.


I don't get it... I really don't get it. It just seems wrong on so many levels. We were closed-minded and intollerant and excommunicated you for marrying who you love, then we changed our minds, but YOU have to pay 800 to fix the mistake that wasn't a mistake...

And who gets this money? Skip the re-communication and give it to charity.

Message edited by author 2013-02-04 15:15:09.
02/04/2013 03:22:51 PM · #37
Maybe an exorcism costs less than $800. Certainly sounds like more fun than an un-excommunication. Your mom can claim she was possessed by an evil spirit that made her marry then divorce.
02/04/2013 03:36:56 PM · #38
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Maybe an exorcism costs less than $800. Certainly sounds like more fun than an un-excommunication. Your mom can claim she was possessed by an evil spirit that made her marry then divorce.


Trust me, I don't think she's really all that worried about it. She has that built in Catholic guilt thing going, but she'll get over it. She hasn't been a Catholic for 49 years now. She was just really surprised (not sure if that's the right word to describe it though) that they would want money in order for her to come back.
02/04/2013 03:43:40 PM · #39
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Maybe an exorcism costs less than $800. Certainly sounds like more fun than an un-excommunication. Your mom can claim she was possessed by an evil spirit that made her marry then divorce.

Trust me, I don't think she's really all that worried about it. She has that built in Catholic guilt thing going, but she'll get over it. She hasn't been a Catholic for 49 years now. She was just really surprised (not sure if that's the right word to describe it though) that they would want money in order for her to come back.

A good excuse to barf on someone for a little payback. ;-)
02/04/2013 05:23:51 PM · #40
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by mike_311:

its always been about the church. why do you think some of the dead sea scrolls were never acknowledges as part of the bible, especially those that talk about the supposed teachings of Jesus as saying you don't need the church, any place can be your church.
.


Hehe. I can't let this go. Can you provide the name of the scroll and the text of your quote for us Mike?
s

Don't bother Mike, my money says the good Doc has this already covered. He just wants to find out if you have the ability to find out... he is tricky that way.

Ray
02/04/2013 05:32:28 PM · #41
Non-canonical books (Wikipedia, emphasis added):

Originally posted by Linked Article:

Believers consider canonical books to be inspired by God or to express the authoritative history of the relationship between God and his people. Books, such as the Jewish-Christian gospels, have been excluded from the canon altogether, but many disputed books considered non-canonical or even apocryphal by some are considered to be Biblical apocrypha or Deuterocanonical or fully canonical by others.


Original article has links to the particulars ...
02/04/2013 06:40:48 PM · #42
First and foremost, Kelli... I hope your mother is feeling better and she is and will continue to be in my prayers.

"Fees" in the Catholic Church are an odd thing. Everyone that wants something done is asked for them, but no one that can't or won't pay is turned away. My wife and I paid for our wedding with a pot of chilli that we knew was a favorite of the priest. When I asked about "cost" for our daughters baptisims I was told by both priests in two different parishes (we had moved between daughters) that "If you're having a good year, throw something extra in the basket next Sunday. otherwise don't worry about it.". My wife had a previous marriage annulled and we were told that "... if you're doing well please pay a little extra so the folks that aren't having a good year can pay less". I have NEVER had the Church demand payment for ANYTHING and have never meet anyone that was denied any Church service due to lack of money. I have often been asked to pitch in to cover the costs of folks that can't pay. It's an annual appeal and God has blessed us with the ability to help out.

Anyway, as to the question of why the dead sea scrolls are not Canonical (in the Bible) I would just point out that many books are not in the Bible. Grapes of Wrath, Moby Dick, Red Badge of Courage... None of them are Scriptural either. Just because the Dead Sea Scrolls are old does not make them Scripture. I'd like to ask Mike, why do you think the Scrolls are Scripture? Do you believe them to be divinely inspired?

Once again, and lastly, Kelli, your mother is in my prayers, for both her returned health and the resolution of any spiritual hardships she may have.

God bless

the other Mike

Message edited by author 2013-02-04 18:44:12.
02/04/2013 06:53:24 PM · #43
Originally posted by myqyl:

Just because the Dead Sea Scrolls are old does not make them Scripture.

Let me ask YOU, what DOES make a particular writing "scriptural" or "canonical", and what is the difference between those terms? Just to flesh it out...
02/04/2013 06:57:52 PM · #44
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by mike_311:

its always been about the church. why do you think some of the dead sea scrolls were never acknowledges as part of the bible, especially those that talk about the supposed teachings of Jesus as saying you don't need the church, any place can be your church.
.


Hehe. I can't let this go. Can you provide the name of the scroll and the text of your quote for us Mike?
s

Don't bother Mike, my money says the good Doc has this already covered. He just wants to find out if you have the ability to find out... he is tricky that way.

Ray


Yes. It is always good to know your sources before you say something that may make you look foolish. I know his statement is false because I know there are only fragmentary references to Jesus in the dead sea scrolls (and even those are debated by scholars).

He may be referring to other texts, but not one located in the dead sea scrolls. And even then, if he's been watching too much Hollywood, the quote is likely cobbled together from disparate sources. But I'm always willing to hear what people have to say. I just find too many times it was something he heard from somebody a long time ago with no verification.
02/04/2013 07:19:10 PM · #45
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by myqyl:

Just because the Dead Sea Scrolls are old does not make them Scripture.

Let me ask YOU, what DOES make a particular writing "scriptural" or "canonical", and what is the difference between those terms? Just to flesh it out...


Scripture and Canonical isn't really different. (At least in my eyes... A non-Catholic Christian might debate that)

To the more relevent question of "What DOES make a particular writing Scriptural" is that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, or put another way, that they were written by God using human authors.

And to the good Doctor, yeah, I know. Everyone lumps everything written 1800 years ago and not in the Bible as being "the Dead Sea Scrolls"... I think he's refering to the book of Barnabus, a Gnostic book from around the 2nd century. I'm guilty of not correcting folks when they do that because it tends to sidetrack the more important issues. I probably am doing them a disservice... Oh well...
02/04/2013 07:42:53 PM · #46
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I know his statement is false because I know there are only fragmentary references to Jesus in the dead sea scrolls (and even those are debated by scholars).

Wouldn't that be because they are mainly Old Testament documents maintained be a Jewish sect?
02/04/2013 07:53:27 PM · #47
Originally posted by myqyl:


.................

To the more relevent question of "What DOES make a particular writing Scriptural" is that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, or put another way, that they were written by God using human authors.
.........................


How do you, or anyone else, "know" this? How does anyone know what is "divinely" inspired? Just because someone a long time ago said some writings were divinely inspired, does not make it so. And if they were, why couldn't something written today not be divinely inspired also? And who would say that it was or wasn't? A bunch of old men who say they are divinely inspired to make the choice?
02/04/2013 08:12:22 PM · #48
Originally posted by CJinCA:

Originally posted by myqyl:


.................

To the more relevent question of "What DOES make a particular writing Scriptural" is that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, or put another way, that they were written by God using human authors.
.........................


How do you, or anyone else, "know" this? How does anyone know what is "divinely" inspired? Just because someone a long time ago said some writings were divinely inspired, does not make it so. And if they were, why couldn't something written today not be divinely inspired also? And who would say that it was or wasn't? A bunch of old men who say they are divinely inspired to make the choice?


The truly wonderful thing about Free Will is that you are absolutely capable and empowered to decide for yourself that you don't believe Scripture is the inspired Word of God, or that God exists at all. I believe it is Scripture not because some old guy in a funny dress told me so. I believe it is the Inspired Word of God because I spent decades reading and praying, and I have been told by the "Author" that He Lives and Loves. I'm a Christian because of my relationship with God and what God has told me... I'm a Catholic mainly because of John 6...

As to why no Scripture is written today, I don't "know" that there isn't any. I certainly haven't found anything although Mother Teresa's writings seem kinda inspred to me. I read everything I find with an open mind. Even forums... But so far, no Scripture...
02/04/2013 08:37:51 PM · #49
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... I just find too many times it was something he heard from somebody a long time ago with no verification.


Kind of like the bible then..
02/04/2013 08:39:33 PM · #50
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I know his statement is false because I know there are only fragmentary references to Jesus in the dead sea scrolls (and even those are debated by scholars).

Wouldn't that be because they are mainly Old Testament documents maintained be a Jewish sect?


Sounds about right to me.
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