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02/06/2013 01:06:38 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Besides, this clearly makes more sense than getting $200 for just passing Go!... ;) |
Maybe it's how they've been paying for all those Get Out Of Jail Free cards they've been handing out ... :-( |
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02/06/2013 01:49:50 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Did she have children with her first husband and if so, are they considered "legitimate"? If the marriage "never took place" in the eyes of the church after the annulment and there were children were they then considered to have been conceived "out of wedlock"? |
Short answer is "No". Canon 1137 of the Code of Canon Law specifically affirms the legitimacy of children born in both valid and putative marriages (objectively invalid, though at least one party celebrated in good faith). The Catholic Church, as far as I know, has never considered the offspring of subsequently-annulled marriages to be illegitimate, though I suppose they may have done at some point. They certainly don't now. |
This really sounds like a big contradiction. How can the church possibly say they are "legitimate" if they consider the marriage never to have taken place? If a woman was never married and had children out of wedlock, the church does not consider those children legitimate. This logically makes no sense to me. |
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02/06/2013 01:58:17 PM · #153 |
I don't really get what people are really up in arms about? Is it the fact there is a fee? Is it the idea of annulment itself? I don't really understand.
If you want to obtain an annulment of your civil marriage, is it free? Does the government, once obtained, view it as "never having happened"? What is the difference that causes people to get their shorts in a knot when it comes to the Catholic Church versus a state agency? Can someone elucidate this for me? |
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02/06/2013 02:30:49 PM · #154 |
That's what I thought. ;)
Here's the way I see the story. A lady is recovering in a hospital created by an organization that has decided they want to have a hospital not to make a profit but to take care of people. She is visited by a stranger that asks if he can minister to her in her time of need. We hear a story of estrangement, but find out that the Church has changed. Where it once had a rule it no longer does and has allowed a more liberal viewpoint. We find out there is a fee for a service rendered but that this fee is waived if there is financial hardship. We find that the lady isn't even interested in the service if it were for free.
And it is this story that people are complaining about. Frankly, I think it should cause some contemplation about why we are so completely embittered that something so innocuous could cause so much turmoil in our lives.
EDIT: I'll add that this isn't directed at any individual but rather at the usual suspects who so hate religion.
Message edited by author 2013-02-06 14:33:48. |
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02/06/2013 02:32:19 PM · #155 |
| most likely because we see the opulent wealth of the vatican hoarded while so many starve. |
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02/06/2013 02:37:37 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
most likely because we see the opulent wealth of the vatican hoarded while so many starve. |
Really? I think you get a big eye roll from me on that one. This is your response to the story Kelli shared? You said to yourself, "damn! If that isn't an example of the opulent church neglecting the starving masses, I don't know what is!"
Message edited by author 2013-02-06 14:41:35. |
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02/06/2013 02:56:30 PM · #157 |
| Jason, I think maybe you misinterpreted something I said. I think she does care or she wouldn't have asked about it in the first place. Money was the obstacle. She was not told this could be done for free if money was an issue. Someone else on here said that. And I'm still not sure that the fee pertained to an annulment anyway (it was just the only thing I could find a listing for doing a google search that had a fee listed). She wasn't excommunicated for getting divorced. She was excommunicated for marrying outside the church in 1963. They stopped doing that in 1966. The point is, that excommunication needs to be lifted in order for her to again receive communion. She was told there was an $800 fee and the conversation never went any further. Everything else is speculation on all of our parts. |
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02/06/2013 03:03:04 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Jason, I think maybe you misinterpreted something I said. I think she does care or she wouldn't have asked about it in the first place. Money was the obstacle. She was not told this could be done for free if money was an issue. Someone else on here said that. And I'm still not sure that the fee pertained to an annulment anyway (it was just the only thing I could find a listing for doing a google search that had a fee listed). She wasn't excommunicated for getting divorced. She was excommunicated for marrying outside the church in 1963. They stopped doing that in 1966. The point is, that excommunication needs to be lifted in order for her to again receive communion. She was told there was an $800 fee and the conversation never went any further. Everything else is speculation on all of our parts. |
Ok, sorry Kelli. I thought I caught that she wasn't interested in rejoining the Catholic Church (perhaps an understandable reaction). If she DOES want to rejoin the church we can rejoice that she has now learned they no longer view her as "unjoinable" (is that even a word?) and that the fee is only voluntary. I think that's good news! |
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02/06/2013 03:37:06 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't really get what people are really up in arms about? Is it the fact there is a fee? Yes - a big one, besides what you have to pay for a divorce
Is it the idea of annulment itself? Yes, because the annulment states the marriage never took place and what that idea means to the aggrieved traditional Catholic party who then wonders if they have been living in sin and what that implies about the children conceived. While this doesn't seem so important now in our society, I have relatives who were denied full participation in the church because of some of these archaic ideas
I don't really understand. You're not Catholic and therefore would never have to even consider the implications for yourself or relatives! :-)
If you want to obtain an annulment of your civil marriage, is it free? It is not an annulment, it is a dissolution - it does not deny that the marriage took place.
Does the government, once obtained, view it as "never having happened"? No
What is the difference that causes people to get their shorts in a knot when it comes to the Catholic Church versus a state agency? Can someone elucidate this for me? |
Hope this helps explain some of the dissatisfaction we have with some of the old ideas, rules, and regulations of the Catholic Church that we have had to deal with over the years, annulment is just one of them. If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand.
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02/06/2013 03:42:07 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by FourPointX:
most likely because we see the opulent wealth of the vatican hoarded while so many starve. |
Really? I think you get a big eye roll from me on that one. This is your response to the story Kelli shared? You said to yourself, "damn! If that isn't an example of the opulent church neglecting the starving masses, I don't know what is!" |
no. this was a direct response to your prior post, which has since been edited. you asked something along the lines of (going from memory forgive any embellishment) "what causes such bitterness and disdain for the church"? |
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02/06/2013 03:52:41 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Hope this helps explain some of the dissatisfaction we have with some of the old ideas, rules, and regulations of the Catholic Church that we have had to deal with over the years, annulment is just one of them. If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
Then it's pretty simple. Don't become Catholic. It is becoming harder and harder to be Catholic in the country, so why start now? |
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02/06/2013 03:59:28 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Hope this helps explain some of the dissatisfaction we have with some of the old ideas, rules, and regulations of the Catholic Church that we have had to deal with over the years, annulment is just one of them. If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
Then it's pretty simple. Don't become Catholic. It is becoming harder and harder to be Catholic in the country, so why start now? |
I'm not sure I understand your point. I was born into the faith, as were all my relatives on both sides of the family - even went to a parochial school. When you are raised in a faith, it is difficult to change to another. I'd rather see the church modernize a bit more - maybe a LOT more! :-D |
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02/06/2013 04:08:44 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by FourPointX:
most likely because we see the opulent wealth of the vatican hoarded while so many starve. |
Really? I think you get a big eye roll from me on that one. This is your response to the story Kelli shared? You said to yourself, "damn! If that isn't an example of the opulent church neglecting the starving masses, I don't know what is!" |
no. this was a direct response to your prior post, which has since been edited. you asked something along the lines of (going from memory forgive any embellishment) "what causes such bitterness and disdain for the church"? |
Gothca. I was asking why this particular story was causing so much grief. |
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02/06/2013 04:11:25 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I don't really get what people are really up in arms about? Is it the fact there is a fee? Is it the idea of annulment itself? I don't really understand.
If you want to obtain an annulment of your civil marriage, is it free? Does the government, once obtained, view it as "never having happened"? What is the difference that causes people to get their shorts in a knot when it comes to the Catholic Church versus a state agency? Can someone elucidate this for me? |
Seriously?????
You don't get any of this?
Yeah.....the fee stinks. If they wanted to do the right & decent thing, all of the people who were given the shit end of the stick old style of doing things should be grandfathered, charged no fee, and apologized to by their arch-diocese
Yeah,......change your arcane rulings because they suck and they're unreasonable, and then charge the people who were unfortunate enough to get caught up in it a fee to make THEIR BS go away.
You really don't see the irony and sick rationale in this, Jason? REALLY?????
I'd also like to see you explain to my friend's four kids why it's okay for the church to say the marriage to their mother and the biggest portion of their lives can be made non-existent.......oh, and again, for a fee again.
I'm guessing you don't see the difference in the civil dissolution and the annulment. You don't have to get a civil dissolution to go back to the church you used to attend, or to my knowledge, any church of any denomination I've ever heard of when you get a divorce or a dissolution. Of course the divorce or dissolution has a fee. You know that's not the issue, it's that you can NOT be a Catholic again without paying the fee.
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02/06/2013 04:14:09 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by CJinCA:
If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
So it's common for devout practitioners of the faith to enter into marriages that can be annulled? (not just any marriage qualifies for an annullment) Marrying outside the faith, I would guess, would cause a fair deal of consternation and grief for those devout relatives you worry over. But it's the church itself in their attempt at providing an avenue of reconciliation that is at fault? So a person is not concerned about marrying a Pentacostal but then IS suddenly worried that her children are now possibly bastards in the eyes of the church? Just make sure I'm clear on this. Sounds like a bit of cake wanting/eating to me.
EDIT: I reread this and it might sound a bit snarkier than I mean it. The takehome is I don't see how the situation is all the fault of the church and no fault of the person finding themselves in it.
Message edited by author 2013-02-06 16:49:38. |
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02/06/2013 04:21:12 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
But it's the church itself in their attempt at providing an avenue of reconciliation that is at fault? |
Wow.....you just *DON'T* get it, do you?
You don't think there is something wrong with this twisted system whereby everybody pretends it didn't exist, even if there are children involved?
Divorce happens, relationships come apart......for the church to provide a service where you get to pretend it never happened is just twisted.
How about counseling, support, and opening the loving arms of the church and the members of it to someone who needs their help, you know.......one of the fallen people they're supposed to care about.
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02/06/2013 04:35:51 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Hope this helps explain some of the dissatisfaction we have with some of the old ideas, rules, and regulations of the Catholic Church that we have had to deal with over the years, annulment is just one of them. If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Then it's pretty simple. Don't become Catholic. It is becoming harder and harder to be Catholic in the country, so why start now? |
I sure can't imagine why anyone would intentionally sign on for the kind of arcane BS regularly put forth by the catholic church.
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02/06/2013 04:44:07 PM · #168 |
No, Jeb. I don't get it.
Your church tells you they don't think it's a good idea for you to marry outside your faith (reasonable advice). You say you are going to do it anyway. Later you think it was a mistake (for whatever reason). The church has a remedy for that. Their remedy is roughly patterned after God's manner of dealing with our sin ("For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.")
I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. Certainly doesn't rise to the rank of "twisted". You are often enemy #1 when it comes to getting worked up over very little. Take some deep breaths and ask yourself if it's really worth raising your blood pressure for? (No post that starts with "wow" winds up in a good place.)
What happens in a civil annulment? The same thing? I haven't seen you splutter about the twistedness of your state government pretending it never happened. |
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02/06/2013 04:52:22 PM · #169 |
Can't anybody recall a movie where one person hurts another and after their reconciliation the one friend asks, "Can you forgive me?" and the other replies, "It never happened." I'm usually pretty choked up at that point and think it's a beautiful sentiment of forgiveness. I can see Jeb next to me hogging the popcorn and elbowing me with, "Pfft. It never happened! What does that even mean? How could it never have happened?" :D
Message edited by author 2013-02-06 16:53:47. |
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02/06/2013 04:59:55 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No, Jeb. I don't get it.
Your church tells you they don't think it's a good idea for you to marry outside your faith (reasonable advice). You say you are going to do it anyway. Later you think it was a mistake (for whatever reason). The church has a remedy for that. Their remedy is roughly patterned after God's manner of dealing with our sin ("For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.")
I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. Certainly doesn't rise to the rank of "twisted". You are often enemy #1 when it comes to getting worked up over very little. Take some deep breaths and ask yourself if it's really worth raising your blood pressure for? (No post that starts with "wow" winds up in a good place.)
What happens in a civil annulment? The same thing? I haven't seen you splutter about the twistedness of your state government pretending it never happened. |
Civil annulments are generally for short term "mistake" weddings, i.e. Vegas quickies, elopements, and the like. It's generally not an option for long term marriages.
As far as the twisted part, I see the effect it has had emotionally on my friend's kids.....and her as well. There really was no reason for him to marry in the church.......this is his third marriage, so it's pretty much a bunch of crap. Especially since this wife is also younger than his eldest child.
And the church sanctions it all.
Sorry.....I'm just not okay with that. I've been divorced, I've made mistakes.....I certainly won't pretend they never happened.
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02/06/2013 05:07:50 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
As far as the twisted part, I see the effect it has had emotionally on my friend's kids.....and her as well. There really was no reason for him to marry in the church.......this is his third marriage, so it's pretty much a bunch of crap. Especially since this wife is also younger than his eldest child. |
Hehe. And you are blaming the church for the emotional state of your friend's kids? I think you have bigger fish to fry my friend. |
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02/06/2013 05:43:08 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That's what I thought. ;)
Here's the way I see the story. A lady is recovering in a hospital created by an organization that has decided they want to have a hospital not to make a profit but to take care of people. She is visited by a stranger that asks if he can minister to her in her time of need. We hear a story of estrangement, but find out that the Church has changed. Where it once had a rule it no longer does and has allowed a more liberal viewpoint. We find out there is a fee for a service rendered but that this fee is waived if there is financial hardship. We find that the lady isn't even interested in the service if it were for free.
And it is this story that people are complaining about. Frankly, I think it should cause some contemplation about why we are so completely embittered that something so innocuous could cause so much turmoil in our lives.
EDIT: I'll add that this isn't directed at any individual but rather at the usual suspects who so hate religion. |
personally, this had to be for the skeptical set, because the God fearing masses would have been more likely to enjoy your retelling if it contained at least one request by the Lord to sacrifice a relative, or at least a stoning and/or a virgin birth.
(just kidding of course, but out of respect, at least I capitalized "God"-
and wtf- did someone blame lawyers at some point in this thread?- never fails!
Message edited by author 2013-02-06 17:43:41. |
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02/06/2013 06:09:00 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Hope this helps explain some of the dissatisfaction we have with some of the old ideas, rules, and regulations of the Catholic Church that we have had to deal with over the years, annulment is just one of them. If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
Then it's pretty simple. Don't become Catholic. It is becoming harder and harder to be Catholic in the country, so why start now? |
...and that is nothing but unadulterated BS. A ton of individuals become Catholics based on no other credential than the fact that their parents are...It's not like you have to pass a test.
Ray |
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02/06/2013 06:29:49 PM · #174 |
| One thing that strikes me as different between religious & civil events discussed here is that whether you divorce/annul/murder....whatever, you still retain your nationality. |
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02/06/2013 06:47:51 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by CJinCA:
If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
So it's common for devout practitioners of the faith to enter into marriages that can be annulled?WHAT! Are you being obtuse! :-) Just about any marriage can be annulled, no matter how much the parties at first think they will be together forever. Then the one who wants to get an annulment after a few years, (frequently because they have found another they want to marry), decide on one of the reasons that the church allows for an annulment. Think of Ted Kennedy & Newt Gingrich who had their marriages annulled. For example, look at this annulment form. I'm sure just about anyone could either find or twist one of the reasons to suit themselves. This is not a universal form, each tribunal has their own forms and fees.
[/b] (not just any marriage qualifies for an annullment) See the above answer and form.
Marrying outside the faith, I would guess, would cause a fair deal of consternation and grief for those devout relatives you worry over. I'm not "worrying" about them, I'm ticked off at the church for not allowing my aunt the sacraments because she had married a divorced man that she loved. Love happens, often without realizing it. :-)
But it's the church itself in their attempt at providing an avenue of reconciliation that is at fault? The church did not offer any reconciliation, you couldn't participate in the sacraments while married but if you needed an annulment, you probably fulfilled one of their reasons for which an annulment could be granted. So a person is not concerned about marrying a Pentacostal but then IS suddenly worried that her children are now possibly bastards in the eyes of the church? The children are not considered bastards and can be baptized in the church but the parent was denied the sacraments, at least that's the way it was.
Just make sure I'm clear on this. You are not clear on it at all! LOL Sounds like a bit of cake wanting/eating to me. |
Yes, the Church does want it both ways. What a tangled web of ideas, rules and regulations have been put forth over all these centuries by the church. At least they aren't burning people at the stake any more who don't follow them all! :-) |
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