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02/06/2013 07:00:34 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Hope this helps explain some of the dissatisfaction we have with some of the old ideas, rules, and regulations of the Catholic Church that we have had to deal with over the years, annulment is just one of them. If it has never happened to you, a relative, or someone you know who was a devout practitioner of the Catholic faith, it may be difficult to understand. |
Then it's pretty simple. Don't become Catholic. It is becoming harder and harder to be Catholic in the country, so why start now? |
I'm not sure I understand your point. I was born into the faith, as were all my relatives on both sides of the family - even went to a parochial school. When you are raised in a faith, it is difficult to change to another. I'd rather see the church modernize a bit more - maybe a LOT more! :-D |
Yeah!!! Talk to your pastor and stop being a lukewarm Catholic and turn up the heat!!!
Originally posted by Revelation 3:15-16:
I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. |
btw, I'm also working on not being lukewarm |
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02/06/2013 07:04:14 PM · #177 |
Mmmm. Call me crazy, but I'm not going to rely on your word that just about any marriage can be annulled (your form link didn't seem to work). What I hear from you is that your aunt wants it one way and still have communion when she knew the rules going in. Was the church being deceitful to her or misleading? Did she think she really WAS going to get communion even though she married the guy?
I can understand the natural frustration, but rules are rules, eh? I know my picture was taken out of date, but it was soooo perfect for the challenge and it scored really awesomely. I'm so mad at DPC right now because it was DQ'd!!! Good pictures happen! I can simultaneously feel sympathy and no sympathy for the situation of your aunt.
Evangelicals, like myself, don't really think you are "born into" the faith. You make your own choices to be in or not.
Message edited by author 2013-02-06 19:06:11. |
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02/06/2013 07:29:47 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Evangelicals, like myself, don't really think you are "born into" the faith. You make your own choices to be in or not. |
Catholics, on the other hand, are indeed born into the faith. So it doesn't really matter what evangelicals believe on the matter.
I'm also pretty sure Jesus wouldn't have said "rules are rules" and kicked Kelli's mom to the curb when she married someone who wasn't a member of the church. |
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02/06/2013 07:44:57 PM · #179 |
Here's the link to the web site - just click on the link below the words "Annulment Form"
Also, "In the early 1960s, about 300 declarations of nullity came from the United States each year; today that annual figure has grown to over 60,000" from canonlaw.info I'd still guess just about any lukewarm Catholic could get an annulment if they wanted one after reading the Petition For Dispensation.
Anyway, no more comments from me on this.
From catholicannulment.us
ECCLESIASTICAL PETITION FOR DISPENSATION AND DECREE OF NULLITY
I, _____________________________________________, do hereby submit to the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction of The Most Reverend David Leon Cooper, O.M.M., Archbishop of the Orthodox Catholic Order of the Missionaries of Mercy, and plead for Apostolic Dispensation and finding of nullity with regards to my marriage to _______________________________________________.
I submit that the marriage was not valid due to one or more of the following reasons:
(Check space(s) that apply)
*Lack of Baptism HE: _____ SHE: _____
(At the time of the marriage)
*If one of the parties was not baptized at the time of the marriage, did a bishop grant a dispensation for the lack of baptism? Yes: _________ No: _________
*Check here if you do not know if a dispensation was granted ___________________________
*What type of clergy performed the marriage? ________________________________________
(Denomination) (Title) (Indicate if Priest, Rabbi, Judge, Minister, etc)
*Intention Against Children: HE: _____ SHE: _____
*Intention Against Permanence: HE: _____ SHE: _____
*Intention Against Fidelity: HE: _____ SHE: _____
*Force and Fear/Reverential Fear: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(Made to marry by force or fear or even fear of being in sin)
*Defective Convalidation: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(No true mutual consent)
*Substantial Error: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(So many lies or falsehoods about the personhood or character to be highly deceitful or fraudulent)
*Lack of Due Discretion: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(Did not really take the marriage seriously from the beginning)
*Defective Consent: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(Did not really consent at the time of marriage due to any reason; this could be a mental problem or simply did not intend it)
*Incapacity to Develop a Community of Life and Love: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(Could be such a psychological, or otherwise emotional defectiveness that cognition of marital responsibilities were not possible; this is a total inability to comprehend or participate in a marital relationship)
Psychic Incapacity Due to:
*Alcoholism: HE: _____ SHE: _____
*Drugs: HE: _____ SHE: _____
(Could be illicit or abuse of prescribed medication)
*Homosexuality: HE: _____ SHE: _____
*Mental or emotional illness: HE: _____ SHE: _____
*Conditions (Medical): HE: _____ SHE: _____
Provide explanation:
*Was there adultery during the marriage? Yes: _________ No: _________
*Who officiated? _______________________________________________________________
(Priest, Minister, Civil Official, Other)
*Is spouse still living? Yes: _________ No: __________
SOLEMN DECLARATION:
I hereby certify that the above statements are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge.
I hereby certify that I have been counseled by the officiating priest that
I must enter into the sacrament of Holy Matrimony with an especially sincere and contrite heart so that I do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is especially true if I am to receive Holy Communion at the Wedding Rite. I further certify that I have examined myself in this regard and will continue to do so until and including the moment of the reception of the Sacraments.
Date: _________________________________________________________________________
By: _________________________________________________________________________
Name: ________________________________________________________________________
(Please Print)
Please call our offices at (818) 390-1452 for pricing information.
Once you have the pricing information, attach a copy of your civil divorce decree and your check or money order made out to Archbishop David Cooper, along with the completed petition and mail to:
Archbishop David Cooper
19205 E Parthenia St. PMB 195
Northridge, CA 91324
You may also pay the fees by credit card. Please fill out the following information:
Credit Card Charge (Fee): ________________________________________________________
Credit Card Type: _______________________________________________________________
Credit Card Number: ____________________________________________________________
Credit Card Security Code __________________________________________________
(Location of CVV2)
The CVV2 is a 3- or 4-digit value printed on the back of your credit/debit card or signature strip, but not encoded on the magnetic stripe
Expiration Date: ________________________________________________________________
Cardholder Name: ______________________________________________________________
Your Complete Billing Address:
Name ________________________________________________________________
Street ________________________________________________________________
City __________________________________________________________________
State / Zip ____________________________________ / ____________________
Telephone Number: _____________________________________________________
E-mail address (Optional): ________________________________________________
Your Complete Mailing Address if not same as billing address above:
Name ________________________________________________________________
Street ________________________________________________________________
City __________________________________________________________________
State / Zip ____________________________________ / ____________________
Telephone Number: _____________________________________________________
E-mail address (Optional): ________________________________________________
Annulment fees are refundable only if Archbishop David Leon Cooper will not grant the
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02/06/2013 07:50:04 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by Ann:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Evangelicals, like myself, don't really think you are "born into" the faith. You make your own choices to be in or not. |
Catholics, on the other hand, are indeed born into the faith. So it doesn't really matter what evangelicals believe on the matter.
I'm also pretty sure Jesus wouldn't have said "rules are rules" and kicked Kelli's mom to the curb when she married someone who wasn't a member of the church. |
So if you are born into the faith but have no interest in participating in it why don't you just go on your merry way? You remain "in your faith" but you can do whatever you want. What does it matter to be nominally Catholic? I don't really get it. If on one hand you never attend mass and don't live like your faith matters what does it matter what the priests say about you? If on the other hand you do attend mass and do live like your faith matters, why are you doing something against your faith (and then becoming upset when called out on it)? I agree that I'm struggling with this concept. |
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02/06/2013 08:00:24 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Ann:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Evangelicals, like myself, don't really think you are "born into" the faith. You make your own choices to be in or not. |
Catholics, on the other hand, are indeed born into the faith. So it doesn't really matter what evangelicals believe on the matter.
I'm also pretty sure Jesus wouldn't have said "rules are rules" and kicked Kelli's mom to the curb when she married someone who wasn't a member of the church. |
So if you are born into the faith but have no interest in participating in it why don't you just go on your merry way? You remain "in your faith" but you can do whatever you want. What does it matter to be nominally Catholic? I don't really get it. If on one hand you never attend mass and don't live like your faith matters what does it matter what the priests say about you? If on the other hand you do attend mass and do live like your faith matters, why are you doing something against your faith (and then becoming upset when called out on it)? I agree that I'm struggling with this concept. |
I can maybe answer this, though it's only based on observance. My mother was "born" Catholic. She was raised Catholic, did all the things required, went to Catholic school, made Holy Communion, etc. When she was 17 (remember this was 1963) she married the person she thought was the love of her life. At 17 you are not very mature. I'm not even sure she realized at the time (no internet, no easy access to religious information) that she would be kicked out of her church. She married in his church. She attended his church (Episcopal, which is pretty close to Catholic). Then a year after their wedding, not long after I was born, he left her for another woman. I think from what I've heard over the years, this is when she actually found out she was no longer welcome at her former church. When she was 18 and a single mother and didn't want to return to his church, feeling alone and needing the people she thought would be there for her. So it's not really as cut and dried as you make it out to be. Over the years, she's made comments along the lines of "I don't need the church to believe in God" and other things. I know it bothered her. But she's the type when you kick her down, she gives you an I don't care attitude and keeps going. So she kept going. |
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02/06/2013 08:18:08 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
I can maybe answer this, though it's only based on observance. My mother was "born" Catholic. She was raised Catholic, did all the things required, went to Catholic school, made Holy Communion, etc. When she was 17 (remember this was 1963) she married the person she thought was the love of her life. At 17 you are not very mature. I'm not even sure she realized at the time (no internet, no easy access to religious information) that she would be kicked out of her church. She married in his church. She attended his church (Episcopal, which is pretty close to Catholic). Then a year after their wedding, not long after I was born, he left her for another woman. I think from what I've heard over the years, this is when she actually found out she was no longer welcome at her former church. When she was 18 and a single mother and didn't want to return to his church, feeling alone and needing the people she thought would be there for her. So it's not really as cut and dried as you make it out to be. Over the years, she's made comments along the lines of "I don't need the church to believe in God" and other things. I know it bothered her. But she's the type when you kick her down, she gives you an I don't care attitude and keeps going. So she kept going. |
I'm not making light of your mom's story Kelli. I bet it's not uncommon at all. You are right, we do foolish things when we're young (my wife married me, right?). I think we all know as parents that there is a difficult line to walk between understanding the indiscretions of youth and enabling them. The Catholic Church seems to have chosen their tack at approaching this and seemingly have even changed their position over time (something I think DPC God-haters should note because they are always complaining the rules are always so obsolete). I don't have the best answer but I do know that it seems that if your mom wanted to return to the fold the path is there. |
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02/06/2013 08:20:23 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
I can maybe answer this, though it's only based on observance. My mother was "born" Catholic. She was raised Catholic, did all the things required, went to Catholic school, made Holy Communion, etc. When she was 17 (remember this was 1963) she married the person she thought was the love of her life. At 17 you are not very mature. I'm not even sure she realized at the time (no internet, no easy access to religious information) that she would be kicked out of her church. She married in his church. She attended his church (Episcopal, which is pretty close to Catholic). Then a year after their wedding, not long after I was born, he left her for another woman. I think from what I've heard over the years, this is when she actually found out she was no longer welcome at her former church. When she was 18 and a single mother and didn't want to return to his church, feeling alone and needing the people she thought would be there for her. So it's not really as cut and dried as you make it out to be. Over the years, she's made comments along the lines of "I don't need the church to believe in God" and other things. I know it bothered her. But she's the type when you kick her down, she gives you an I don't care attitude and keeps going. So she kept going. |
I'm not making light of your mom's story Kelli. I bet it's not uncommon at all. You are right, we do foolish things when we're young (my wife married me, right?). I think we all know as parents that there is a difficult line to walk between understanding the indiscretions of youth and enabling them. The Catholic Church seems to have chosen their tack at approaching this and seemingly have even changed their position over time (something I think DPC God-haters should note because they are always complaining the rules are always so obsolete). I don't have the best answer but I do know that it seems that if your mom wanted to return to the fold the path is there. |
I don't think she'd try again. Once she hears no, she doesn't ask again. |
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02/06/2013 08:23:26 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
I don't think she'd try again. Once she hears no, she doesn't ask again. |
That was the sentiment that I thought I caught earlier when I said she didn't want to rejoin even if it were free. I don't totally blame her. Maybe she could return to the Episcopal church she went to with her ex-husband (assuming he's not there any longer). |
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02/06/2013 08:30:09 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
I don't think she'd try again. Once she hears no, she doesn't ask again. |
That was the sentiment that I thought I caught earlier when I said she didn't want to rejoin even if it were free. I don't totally blame her. Maybe she could return to the Episcopal church she went to with her ex-husband (assuming he's not there any longer). |
Probably, but you had written she didn't care. It's not that she doesn't, it's that she won't let anyone know that she does (if that makes sense). And his family is still there after all these years. She wouldn't ever go back there. |
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02/06/2013 08:36:37 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not making light of your mom's story Kelli. I bet it's not uncommon at all. You are right, we do foolish things when we're young (my wife married me, right?). I think we all know as parents that there is a difficult line to walk between understanding the indiscretions of youth and enabling them. The Catholic Church seems to have chosen their tack at approaching this and seemingly have even changed their position over time (something I think DPC God-haters should note because they are always complaining the rules are always so obsolete). I don't have the best answer but I do know that it seems that if your mom wanted to return to the fold the path is there. |
I think you're confused on one point. There are plenty of people here who are just fine with both God and Jesus, but don't care much for what the men who purport to speak in his name have to say. So many of Jesus' noisiest and most powerful followers seem to have lost a lot of the love and human compassion that was part and parcel of Jesus' teachings. Kelli's mom's story is just one example. |
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02/06/2013 08:43:21 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Kelli:
I don't think she'd try again. Once she hears no, she doesn't ask again. |
That was the sentiment that I thought I caught earlier when I said she didn't want to rejoin even if it were free. I don't totally blame her. Maybe she could return to the Episcopal church she went to with her ex-husband (assuming he's not there any longer). |
Probably, but you had written she didn't care. It's not that she doesn't, it's that she won't let anyone know that she does (if that makes sense). And his family is still there after all these years. She wouldn't ever go back there. |
and eta: And it was probably more "my" attitude you caught. I really don't think she should even want to go back to something that kicked her to the curb. You already know I'm an atheist and so does she (no matter how many churches she sent me too). |
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02/06/2013 09:03:56 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by Ann:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not making light of your mom's story Kelli. I bet it's not uncommon at all. You are right, we do foolish things when we're young (my wife married me, right?). I think we all know as parents that there is a difficult line to walk between understanding the indiscretions of youth and enabling them. The Catholic Church seems to have chosen their tack at approaching this and seemingly have even changed their position over time (something I think DPC God-haters should note because they are always complaining the rules are always so obsolete). I don't have the best answer but I do know that it seems that if your mom wanted to return to the fold the path is there. |
I think you're confused on one point. There are plenty of people here who are just fine with both God and Jesus, but don't care much for what the men who purport to speak in his name have to say. So many of Jesus' noisiest and most powerful followers seem to have lost a lot of the love and human compassion that was part and parcel of Jesus' teachings. Kelli's mom's story is just one example. |
That's what Protestants are for. ;) |
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02/06/2013 11:55:25 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Why do we need so many sects of Christianity if this last point is true? If it was all holy spirit writing and interpreting from the beginning- why can't we all just stay Catholic?
And how can you be sure your newly interpreting sect is reading with the proper, Holy spirit sanctioned inflection? |
+1 |
I'll +2 it...
But we need to remember there is the Catholic Church and the catholic (small c) Church. Non-Catholic Christians (I avoid the word Protestant since it's origin was derogatory) are still very much catholic Christians. Dispite theological and administrative issues, we are all the Body of the Church that Christ is the Head of. And while the Catholic Church recognizes that our non-Catholic sisters and brothers have many wonderful gifts inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Catholic (uppercase C) Church still has the unabridged version of the Word of God. The Church has spent 2000 years keeping the Holy Spirit's Word intact.
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02/06/2013 11:59:57 PM · #190 |
Amen big C brutha! (Who is also a little c brutha!). I like more than I don't like in that post. ;)
Message edited by author 2013-02-07 00:01:41. |
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02/07/2013 12:07:27 AM · #191 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by MichaelC:
I've just read the entire thread and I still don't know what God wants with $800 (see op). |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Right. I think on page 2 post #34 there were 2 divorces, so annulment investigations for each would be $400 or $800.
God doesn't need the $800. The cannon lawyers do. My wife went through an annulment process. The lawyers contact all parties to investigate the validity of marriage. The process took 6-9 months and was finally processed. It seemed to me worth the money involved. |
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Of course it was worth it to you, otherwise she would have been a bigamist in the eyes of your church, right? Did she have children with her first husband and if so, are they considered "legitimate"? If the marriage "never took place" in the eyes of the church after the annulment and there were children were they then considered to have been conceived "out of wedlock"? |
Yeah......I'm still waiting on an answer on that question, too.
The way it seems, if the marriage never happened in the church's eyes, then the children must not exist at all.
If they were born during the time when the marriage is stated to have not existed, then they must not exist, either.
And what if they were baptized in the church? Isn't that duly recorded in the church records? What then?
Are the church records altered? |
Umm, seriously? They don't exist because they were concieved while their parents weren't married?!? Perhaps you should read the Luke 1... Mary and Joseph were not married when Mary concieved, and I can assure you that Church believs He existed. This is absurd...
Children do not have to be born to 2 married Catholic parents for Baptism either... I mean really... The Church believes that ALL children exist and they acknowledge that they are human children, and they acknowledge that about 9 months before most secular humanist do. We take Jesus's admonition to "Let the children come unto Me" VERY seriously. |
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02/07/2013 12:16:22 AM · #192 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
The Church has spent 2000 years keeping the Holy Spirit's Word intact. |
Your myopia is simply fascinating. The book serves the Church, not the other way around. It's not as if you're not clever enough to understand the idea of manipulation, but when it's carried out in such grand fashion, and in such magnificent scale, apparently it just short-circuits that 'check' mechanism in some people.
Message edited by author 2013-02-07 00:16:37. |
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02/07/2013 12:33:42 AM · #193 |
| Cory keeps trying to troll his way to relevance in the discussion... |
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02/07/2013 12:50:25 AM · #194 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Cory keeps trying to troll his way to relevance in the discussion... |
*shrug* It is honestly amazing to me how you folks view this stuff.
You REALLY think the church exists to serve the book. It's just mind-blowing.
Of course, what should I expect, you folks accept far stranger things as fact. |
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02/07/2013 12:57:47 AM · #195 |
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02/07/2013 02:17:01 AM · #196 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by myqyl:
The Church has spent 2000 years keeping the Holy Spirit's Word intact. |
Your myopia is simply fascinating. The book serves the Church, not the other way around. It's not as if you're not clever enough to understand the idea of manipulation, but when it's carried out in such grand fashion, and in such magnificent scale, apparently it just short-circuits that 'check' mechanism in some people. |
I don't expect everyone to understand this. It's not an easy thing to accept. But believe me, I'm not a victim of "blind faith". I have very specific reasons that I gave up membership in the Athiest Church and have returned to the Ccatholic Church. My 'check' is in fully functional fighting form. It's just that after checking I have found my current belief to be Truth. It may be a truth you can't see or accept, but I'm really not trying to force it on you. I would like you to respect my right to believe, but understand and accept that might not be possible. I will continue to respect your right to not believe none the less.
One quick question though... Have you ever done a truely open minded "check" of your non-belief? Be careful if you decide to give it a try. It's how I got where I am...
God bless.
Message edited by author 2013-02-07 02:40:08. |
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02/07/2013 02:32:59 AM · #197 |
I'd like to throw one more log in to this little fire... Several folks have questioned why the Church charges money for annulments andother "services"...
It's a little hard to understand from the outside, but I'll try to explain.
The Church has a very unusual business model that was imposed by her Founder (Jesus)... While most folks understand that businesses have revenue centers and cost centers, the way it works in the Church is a little different than most "businesses". Usually a cost center is there to support the revenue center. Advertising (a cost) supports and promotes sales (a revenue)... The Church's model is the opposite... An annulment fee from an American living in a nice house with a car and plenty of food (a revenue) goes to support a convent of nuns ministering to the needs of a legion of homeless, destitute and dying children in Calcutta (a cost center)... Yes this is completely contrary to the American business model, but this model has served the Church well for 2000 years and her CEO (the Holy Spirit) has decreed that "It ain't broke... don't fix it..."
No one I've ever spoken to has been denied a "service" from the Church due to an inability to pay. I know my aunt (a missionary in South America for 30 years and in upstate NY till her death) often gave medical care that would have cost thousands here for a dinner or a few ears of corn. The people that recieved these "services" from her never complained about the cost and often tried to give more than was asked of them. Their Spiritual wealth puts our monetary wealth to shame... literally... |
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02/07/2013 02:40:11 AM · #198 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
One quick question though... Have you ever done a truely open minded "check" of your non-belief? Be careful if you decide to give it a try. It's how I got where I am...
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It can be an illuminating journey. Like the one Paul took on the road to Damascus.
sp edit
Message edited by author 2013-02-07 02:42:40. |
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02/07/2013 03:03:34 AM · #199 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
But we need to remember there is the Catholic Church and the catholic (small c) Church. Non-Catholic Christians (I avoid the word Protestant since it's origin was derogatory) are still very much catholic Christians. Dispite theological and administrative issues, we are all the Body of the Church that Christ is the Head of... |
Was not aware of the origin being derogatory - always thought it was simply an accurate descriptive use of the root word protest as in Protesting Catholic. Luther was Catholic who protested to become catholic or a protest-ant today termed a protester. A Luthern Mass is earily similar to any Catholic Mass I've attended. During my "journey" back, I spent years in more "evangelical" denominations with a fair stint in a very fundementalist Church of Christ group (no dancing, drinking, instruments, etc.) Lots of well meaning people there and devout believers, but ultimately my sinful muscician ways (dancing, drinking, instruments) got the better of me. I expect to be judged someday, but the dancing, drinking and music playing is pretty far down the list of my shortcomings.
Anyway - with but a few exceptions, this has been a pretty civil discourse and it is good to read the variety of input - with but a few exceptions.
I really truly do get why those who question scripture are unfullfilled in the answers. I have some of the same questions and readily admit that some things simply makes no sense. I am perfectly OK with another's choice to not believe in salavation nor even that any account from scripture is accurate (literal or figurative). I accept and acknowledge that terrible things have happened in the name of "The Church" and do not understand how those who supposedly had the "inside" track on knowledge could stray so far from what I believe the original message is/was. I can't explain it nor defend those atrocities. However, although not really even a "lukewarm" Catholic I certainly feel a part of the catholic church and consider myself redeemable should I ever choose to be more committed. |
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02/07/2013 07:38:56 AM · #200 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
\
Evangelicals, like myself, don't really think you are "born into" the faith. You make your own choices to be in or not. |
I must be misreading this. If this is common belief, why drag kids to church... surely in time they will figure it out right? :o)
Ray |
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