| Author | Thread |
|
|
11/01/2011 11:28:49 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Spaz, I pay attention enough. |
Clearly you don't.
|
|
|
|
11/01/2011 11:44:06 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Spaz, I pay attention enough. |
Clearly you don't. |
You are welcome to enlighten me. |
|
|
|
11/01/2011 11:50:40 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by o2bskating:
it dosn't matter if they have iphones or not, it dosn't matter how big or rich the companies get. the problem is that OUR government let those companies pay them off and dictate how things will be. the companies don't mean anything it's the government where the problem is it's being bought, that's what everyone has a problem with. do u understand now? |
Ummm, just exploring your logic, but how are the corporations BOTH dictating how things will be but are not part of the problem?
Spaz, I pay attention enough. I see the headlines, I hear NPR. I just don't read each and every article that comes out because I don't really care. Wake me up when something changes other than trashing our public parks... |
if the government didn't take the money in the first place, the way it's supposed to be, then the corporations wouldn't be giving it out now would they. it's the government's fault because they are a bunch of greedy pricks that only give a shit about their wallets. If the government did their job it would cost those companies too much to outsource their product production. they would have to hire people here to produce the product. ceo's wouldn't get their bonus anymore cause the difference in pay would eat that up and everyone would be happy.
|
|
|
|
11/02/2011 12:03:31 AM · #54 |
| That makes about as much sense as Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan... |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 12:45:09 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
If the police are ordered to clear a park and the protesters refuse to leave, so from the police point of view arrest is necessary, don't you think there's a middle ground between "please" and cracking heads/tear gas? |
what, like a timeout? |
I suppose you've never seen the police arrest someone without beating them up first? Well, I have, so I know it's possible. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 12:50:22 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
..half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep. |
It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)
While I'm not opposed to what the people are trying to say (wait, what are they trying to say again?), I also don't envy the mayors who need to actually enforce the rule of law. If the park closes at 11PM, you can't just say, well, it's ok for you guys to be there. If neighbors are complaining that drums are being banged in the middle of the night you can't just say, well, they are protesting so it's ok. And brutality is never to be condoned, but the police aren't going to make a lot of headway with "please" and "thank you". It's a protest after all. Like I said, I'd hate to be the mayor. |
Just because it's a law, it doesn't require enforcement. Certainly not with tear gas grenades and beatings.
It was 5am and by all accounts, quiet. Also, the area is NOT residential, it's surrounded by office buildings and businesses. The Mayor of Oakland even agreed in her written apology/statement that things went poorly, later instructing the police to allow the protesters to return. |
You seem to be talking about a specific incident when Judith was saying there were multiple instances where camps were raided at night. I've just made comment on some of the stuff I've seen in the headlines. Really I don't have a ton of interest in the protests. It seems like a bunch of undirected angst. I do get an ironic kick about the New York protesters complaining about the homeless people. Maybe the 98% should meet the other 1%... |
You're missing the point. For your information, the protesters are taking care of the homeless folk who are showing up. They're being fed, given blankets, sleeping bags, clothes. The protesters were complaining about the police trying to rat-fuck them (to use a Nixon dirty-tricks phrase). And this is happening in locations other than New York. Some of the encampments have set up soup kitchens of a sort, when their resources allow it. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 12:57:31 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
If the police are ordered to clear a park and the protesters refuse to leave, so from the police point of view arrest is necessary, don't you think there's a middle ground between "please" and cracking heads/tear gas? |
Oh yes, I do. But that's always a tough call on exactly what that middle ground is and that's why I don't want to be the mayor.
Spork's comment also brings light to another difficulty with these protests. There are so many that people may be talking about completely different things. In some the protesters may be completely reasonable, in others the police are the reasonable ones. It's hard to make any generalizations except the one where I said I wouldn't want to be the mayor... :) |
Not such a tough call. How about they should act professionally.... |
and yet they are human, with all the flaws that humans tend to have, when pushed they push back. |
Yeah, those sleeping protesters were behaving so badly... in their sleep... really called for a good beating.
Sheesh |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 01:04:15 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Spaz, I pay attention enough. |
So apparently you don't think the issues being raised by these protests are worthy of consideration? |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 01:17:42 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Really I don't have a ton of interest in the protests. It seems like a bunch of undirected angst. |
Interesting ... the Vatican (and now the head of the Anglican Church) seem to be taking this all rather seriously, and having no trouble associating the current protests with specific recommendations for policy changes to mitigate the current disasterous course upon which we are embarked. When are the Evangelicals going to look at investment banks and ask "what would Jesus think?" ... What do you make of a system which exalts personal greed as its motivating force?
Vatican sides with âOccupyâ protesters in call for crackdown on financial markets
Originally posted by Cited article:
VATICAN CITY â The Vatican called on Monday for the establishment of a âglobal public authorityâ and a âcentral world bankâ to rule over financial institutions that have become outdated and often ineffective in dealing fairly with crises.
The document from the Vaticanâs Justice and Peace department should please the âOccupy Wall Streetâ demonstrators and similar movements around the world who have protested against the economic downturn.
âToward Reforming the International Financial and Monetary Systems in the Context of a Global Public Authority,â was at times very specific, calling, for example, for taxation measures on financial transactions.
âThe economic and financial crisis which the world is going through calls everyone, individuals and peoples, to examine in depth the principles and the cultural and moral values at the basis of social coexistence,â it said.
It condemned what it called âthe idolatry of the marketâ as well as a âneo-liberal thinkingâ that it said looked exclusively at technical solutions to economic problems.
âIn fact, the crisis has revealed behaviors like selfishness, collective greed and hoarding of goods on a great scale,â it said, adding that world economics needed an âethic of solidarityâ among rich and poor nations.
âIf no solutions are found to the various forms of injustice, the negative effects that will follow on the social, political and economic level will be destined to create a climate of growing hostility and even violence, and ultimately undermine the very foundations of democratic institutions, even the ones considered most solid,â it said. |
Here is a link to a copy of the original statement. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 01:23:07 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Spaz, I pay attention enough. |
So apparently you don't think the issues being raised by these protests are worthy of consideration? |
You make it sound like it's an all-or-none proposition and I won't play that game. I support their general purposes, but I'm doubtful their drum pounding will amount to much. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 01:30:05 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Spaz, I pay attention enough. |
So apparently you don't think the issues being raised by these protests are worthy of consideration? |
You make it sound like it's an all-or-none proposition and I won't play that game. I support their general purposes, but I'm doubtful their drum pounding will amount to much. |
I don't think you're really paying attention then, are you?
|
|
|
|
11/02/2011 01:42:36 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I support their general purposes, but I'm doubtful their drum pounding will amount to much. |
Given their lack of wealth, and lack of connections to those in power, what would you suggest they do to drive their points into public debate? Occupation of public squares worked in Egypt, back fired in China, and is being attempted, not for the first time, in America. When you have nothing but your body, you use it to get your point across rather than the more effective route of campaign contributions and hiring an army of lobbyists.
By the way, I know a great deal is being made of the drum pounding on certain media outlets, but I have the quite a few hours shooting at the occupy protests and saw food being given out, meetings going on, art lessons, debate, discussion, smelled a bit of weed being smoked, but never heard a single drum being pounded. I guess we all hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 01:58:32 AM · #63 |
Perhaps there is hope if they are doing some of the things you mention. What would I suggest? Whatever percent you are, worry about those below you, not those above. If you are the 1%, then you do have the charge to be concerned with the 99%. But if you are the 50%, then spend your energy caring about the 49%. Do. Don't bitch.
And Spaz, you can't bluff the same intellectual pair of fours twice. Either explain yourself or fold your hand. What change has been effected from the protests? Can you name me one? |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 02:19:29 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What would I suggest? Whatever percent you are, worry about those below you, not those above. If you are the 1%, then you do have the charge to be concerned with the 99%. But if you are the 50%, then spend your energy caring about the 49%. Do. Don't bitch |
On a micro scale that is a fine philosophy, on a macro scale it is disastrous. The direction of tax policy and governmental support has shifted in my lifetime from a focus on bringing up the disadvantaged into the middle class, to our current policy of lowering taxes and ensuring that those who have the greatest wealth are protected. I'm hanging on, but the those below me are growing in number and all the ladders are being pulled up the ramparts. I can help out a bit locally, but it is a bit like trying to bail out the ocean.
Plenty of folks in the highest income brackets make sure they spend their time and money bitching about how overtaxed they are, and how over regulated they are, so they get changes in the law to make sure they get more and more of the pie. If you don't make you voice heard, don't expect to get anyone's attention.
Message edited by author 2011-11-02 02:29:51. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 02:25:19 AM · #65 |
| Well, we can each have our philosophy. I choose to be heard through my actions. I don't need a protest for that. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 02:52:57 AM · #66 |
| And here, drachoo? How do you choose to be heard? Is this thread not similar, the same kind of social noise? |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 10:03:02 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, we can each have our philosophy. I choose to be heard through my actions. I don't need a protest for that. |
The problem with your philosphy is that no one who can make the changes you need hears your voice. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 10:06:41 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps there is hope if they are doing some of the things you mention. What would I suggest? Whatever percent you are, worry about those below you, not those above. If you are the 1%, then you do have the charge to be concerned with the 99%. But if you are the 50%, then spend your energy caring about the 49%. Do. Don't bitch.
And Spaz, you can't bluff the same intellectual pair of fours twice. Either explain yourself or fold your hand. What change has been effected from the protests? Can you name me one? |
Did I suggest that change has been made? It could easily be argued that the banks backing off of their $5 debit fees is a change due in no small measure to the angry people camped out in front of their offices.
Given the momentum and magnitude of the protests, I'll be shocked if nothing comes of it. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 10:14:21 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What would I suggest? Whatever percent you are, worry about those below you, not those above. If you are the 1%, then you do have the charge to be concerned with the 99%. But if you are the 50%, then spend your energy caring about the 49%. Do. Don't bitch |
On a micro scale that is a fine philosophy, on a macro scale it is disastrous. The direction of tax policy and governmental support has shifted in my lifetime from a focus on bringing up the disadvantaged into the middle class, to our current policy of lowering taxes and ensuring that those who have the greatest wealth are protected. I'm hanging on, but the those below me are growing in number and all the ladders are being pulled up the ramparts. I can help out a bit locally, but it is a bit like trying to bail out the ocean.
Plenty of folks in the highest income brackets make sure they spend their time and money bitching about how overtaxed they are, and how over regulated they are, so they get changes in the law to make sure they get more and more of the pie. If you don't make you voice heard, don't expect to get anyone's attention. |
Exactly, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The 1% have been squeaking loudly all along about their "high taxes" (despite their tax rates being at historic lows), over regulation etc. Since they make the political big donations, they've been getting what they want for decades at the expense of the 99%.
|
|
|
|
11/02/2011 10:48:06 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That makes about as much sense as Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan... |
at least i try to find a way to fix it instead of acting like some condescending pious ass towards everyone that don't have my opinion. if you think this isn't gonna effect you just wait a few more years when nobody has health care because there are nothing but part time jobs. who's gonna pay you then. but it's not your problem cause your rich right now aren't you and you don't want to be taxed more do you. enjoy it while it lasts. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 11:01:37 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That makes about as much sense as Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan... |
at least i try to find a way to fix it instead of acting like some condescending pious ass towards everyone that don't have my opinion. if you think this isn't gonna effect you just wait a few more years when nobody has health care because there are nothing but part time jobs. who's gonna pay you then. but it's not your problem cause your rich right now aren't you and you don't want to be taxed more do you. enjoy it while it lasts. |
Oh, the typical mistake is made assuming I must be conservative because I'm a doctor or a Christian. I sit contentedly in the middle, leaning left. But radical liberals bother me every bit as much as radical conservatives. I'm no Tea Party guy, but at least they managed to elect some people with their view. Can't say that for the OWS people. What's the old joke? I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat!
I'm happy to be taxed more if it puts the country back on track. And, believe me, I'm not part of the 1% by income. Not even close. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 11:12:57 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by o2bskating:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That makes about as much sense as Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan... |
at least i try to find a way to fix it instead of acting like some condescending pious ass towards everyone that don't have my opinion. if you think this isn't gonna effect you just wait a few more years when nobody has health care because there are nothing but part time jobs. who's gonna pay you then. but it's not your problem cause your rich right now aren't you and you don't want to be taxed more do you. enjoy it while it lasts. |
Oh, the typical mistake is made assuming I must be conservative because I'm a doctor or a Christian. I sit contentedly in the middle, leaning left. But radical liberals bother me every bit as much as radical conservatives. I'm no Tea Party guy, but at least they managed to elect some people with their view. Can't say that for the OWS people. What's the old joke? I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat!
I'm happy to be taxed more if it puts the country back on track. And, believe me, I'm not part of the 1% by income. Not even close. |
no where in my statement does it say what party you are with, in fact i really could care less. what it says is that you are a condescending pious ass, last time i checked that wasn't a party. so far as your issues with your party that you brought up on your own, don't try to twist what i say. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 11:27:50 AM · #73 |
Ah insults, the last bastion of debate for the intellectually weak.
I'll just summarize my position here:
1) Care about those less fortunate, not those more fortunate.
2) Vote. Always vote.
3) Be aware where you spend your money.
4) Volunteer.
If the OWS movement can bring about change along these guidelines, I support them. If they are just in it for themselves, well, that's boring. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 11:37:41 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by o2bskating:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
That makes about as much sense as Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan... |
at least i try to find a way to fix it instead of acting like some condescending pious ass towards everyone that don't have my opinion. if you think this isn't gonna effect you just wait a few more years when nobody has health care because there are nothing but part time jobs. who's gonna pay you then. but it's not your problem cause your rich right now aren't you and you don't want to be taxed more do you. enjoy it while it lasts. |
Oh, the typical mistake is made assuming I must be conservative because I'm a doctor or a Christian. I sit contentedly in the middle, leaning left. But radical liberals bother me every bit as much as radical conservatives. I'm no Tea Party guy, but at least they managed to elect some people with their view. Can't say that for the OWS people. What's the old joke? I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat!
I'm happy to be taxed more if it puts the country back on track. And, believe me, I'm not part of the 1% by income. Not even close. |
The Tea Party was pretty much absorbed by the GOP. Their real effect was to drive the GOP further toward the extreme right, increasing the divide between the parties. They have become part of the system.
The OWS seems more about changing the system and not becoming just another spoke in the wheel. If they follow the Tea Party and become just another party faction, they've failed IMO. |
|
|
|
11/02/2011 11:41:24 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Spaz, I pay attention enough. |
So apparently you don't think the issues being raised by these protests are worthy of consideration? |
You make it sound like it's an all-or-none proposition and I won't play that game. I support their general purposes, but I'm doubtful their drum pounding will amount to much. |
The drum pounding by itself will not amount to much, but there's an awful lot more going on, of which you are apparently unaware. |
|
