Occupy Wallstreet vs Middle East protests

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11/01/2011 05:48:09 PM · #26

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by mike_311:
The only time the police got involved is when they were instigated.

You might have a point if you consider peaceful protests an instigation. (And as in the case of so many of the police raids, I wonder how sleeping protesters in the middle of the night managed to instigate a violent reaction?) Actually, I think the protesters have been incredibly disciplined and restrained given the constant provocation from the police to act otherwise.

the protestors gain a benefit by instigating, they can say "look, we are getting beaten we are being silenced". i wouldn't be surprised to find that the organizers are planting people to instigate knowing they will get massive news coverage a favorable view from the public.

It would not be unheard of in the US for the police to use agents provocateurs as a means to start trouble and justify the use of force against otherwise peaceful protestors.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

11/01/2011 05:55:36 PM · #27

Originally posted by Spork99:

It would not be unheard of in the US for the police to use agents provocateurs as a means to start trouble and justify the use of force against otherwise peaceful protestors.

true. but lets no act like these protests are squeaky clean. its doesn't take much to bring a peaceful situation into a violent disaster. it can be started from both sides.

in the other countries in the video they dont need a reason to break up a protest, they just do it. that doesn't happen here. needing a reason, any reason is a big difference between these and those.

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11/01/2011 06:07:25 PM · #28

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Spork99:

It would not be unheard of in the US for the police to use agents provocateurs as a means to start trouble and justify the use of force against otherwise peaceful protestors.

true. but lets no act like these protests are squeaky clean. its doesn't take much to bring a peaceful situation into a violent disaster. it can be started from both sides.

in the other countries in the video they dont need a reason to break up a protest, they just do it. that doesn't happen here. needing a reason, any reason is a big difference between these and those.

If there weren't so many eyes on the protests, what makes you think it wouldn't happen here too.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

11/01/2011 06:21:27 PM · #29

it can't happen here because there are no elephants in the room, silly

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

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11/01/2011 06:22:59 PM · #30

Originally posted by mike_311:

in the other countries in the video they dont need a reason to break up a protest, they just do it. that doesn't happen here. needing a reason, any reason is a big difference between these and those.

In my opinion you understimate the complexity of overseas protests.

The Tienanmen Square protests lasted from April 15, 1989 untill June 4 when troops from the west were called in to massacre the protesters. Local troops were not trusted to follow orders, and the regiem was at real risk of toppeling. The backlash from the protest and it's voilent suppression purged any thoughts of political liberalisation within the ruling elite, and launched China on an autoritarian nationalistic trajectory that their inclusion into the world economic market has not shifted.

The Tahrir Square protests began on January 25th, 2011 and Mubarak was forced from office on Febuary 11th, after he sent in loyalist thugs from the south, but he was unable to split the military which, rather than turning on the protesters, found it simpler to turn out Mubarak.

o2bskating

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11/01/2011 06:24:35 PM · #31

What happened next is etched in the American memory: for the first time in the nation�s history, tanks rolled through the streets of the capital. MacArthur ordered his men to clear the downtown of veterans, their numbers estimated at around 8,000, and spectators who had been drawn to the scene by radio reports. At 4:30 p.m., nearly 200 mounted cavalry, sabers drawn and pennants flying, wheeled out of the Ellipse. At the head of this contingent rode their executive officer, George S. Patton, followed by five tanks and about 300 helmeted infantrymen, brandishing loaded rifles with fixed bayonets. The cavalry drove most pedestrians�curious onlookers, civil servants and members of the Bonus Army, many with wives and children�off the streets. Infantrymen wearing gas masks hurled hundreds of tear-gas grenades at the dispersing crowd. The detonated grenades set off dozens of fires: the flimsy shelters veterans had erected near the armory went up in flames. Black clouds mingled with tear gas.

Read more: //www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/marching.html#ixzz1cUkohQI3

it does happen here.

Judith Polakoff

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11/01/2011 06:25:47 PM · #32

Originally posted by mike_311:

the protestors gain a benefit by instigating, they can say "look, we are getting beaten we are being silenced".

If the protesters are reaping benefits by being beaten, then why don't the police stop beating them? You're inventing a scenario out of whole cloth.

Originally posted by mike_311:

i wouldn't be surprised to find that the organizers are planting people to instigate knowing they will get massive news coverage a favorable view from the public.

Well, when you have any evidence to that effect, let us know.

Originally posted by mike_311:

what i have seen across the country is minor police interference, the protests are being allowed to carry on so long as they dont interfere with the public, traffic and follow rules. there is no need or reason for police to just move in a beat people, especially in today's society where everything is on film.

You must be living in a parallel universe, then, or you're on drugs, because to date about 25 of the encampments in the U.S. have been attacked by police, half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep. Other encampments have been harassed on a regular basis, such as in Zuccotti Park, with police stealing the protesters' property. And in a disturbing number of these incidents the police have arrived in full riot gear and have used tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets and etc. You'd think there were full-blown riots occurring rather than, in reality, sleeping protesters in tents, or protesters walking on the street with homemade signs, or protesters manning soup kitchens. Where are the broken windows, looted stores, overturned and burning vehicles? Why is it that not one violent incident has been reported when the police are not present? As you say, it's all on film, and I and millions of other people have witnessed exactly what has happened. Of course there's no need or reason for the police to act this way. Nevertheless, they only seem capable of speaking the language of violence. It seems to be what they are all about, and they are being encouraged in that regard by the mayors and governors who are giving the orders.

11/01/2011 07:24:21 PM · #33

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

..half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep.

It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

While I'm not opposed to what the people are trying to say (wait, what are they trying to say again?), I also don't envy the mayors who need to actually enforce the rule of law. If the park closes at 11PM, you can't just say, well, it's ok for you guys to be there. If neighbors are complaining that drums are being banged in the middle of the night you can't just say, well, they are protesting so it's ok. And brutality is never to be condoned, but the police aren't going to make a lot of headway with "please" and "thank you". It's a protest after all. Like I said, I'd hate to be the mayor.

Message edited by author 2011-11-01 19:25:11.

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11/01/2011 08:15:36 PM · #34

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
..half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep.

It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

While I'm not opposed to what the people are trying to say (wait, what are they trying to say again?), I also don't envy the mayors who need to actually enforce the rule of law. If the park closes at 11PM, you can't just say, well, it's ok for you guys to be there. If neighbors are complaining that drums are being banged in the middle of the night you can't just say, well, they are protesting so it's ok. And brutality is never to be condoned, but the police aren't going to make a lot of headway with "please" and "thank you". It's a protest after all. Like I said, I'd hate to be the mayor.

Just because it's a law, it doesn't require enforcement. Certainly not with tear gas grenades and beatings.

It was 5am and by all accounts, quiet. Also, the area is NOT residential, it's surrounded by office buildings and businesses. The Mayor of Oakland even agreed in her written apology/statement that things went poorly, later instructing the police to allow the protesters to return.

Message edited by author 2011-11-01 20:32:23.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

11/01/2011 09:28:14 PM · #35

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think you're referring to the so-called "drum circle" in Zuccotti Park, and my understanding is that they have now agreed to suspend the music at 10pm.

If the police are ordered to clear a park and the protesters refuse to leave, so from the police point of view arrest is necessary, don't you think there's a middle ground between "please" and cracking heads/tear gas?

tnun

Ricoh GR III

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11/01/2011 09:36:48 PM · #36

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

I think a few people here should lose their virginity etc - their political virginity, that is.

What a curious brickbat ....

o2bskating

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11/01/2011 09:49:06 PM · #37

Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

I think a few people here should lose their virginity etc - their political virginity, that is.

What a curious brickbat ....

lets not forget the dancing naked in the streets and sacrificing chickens in front of children.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

11/01/2011 10:26:46 PM · #38

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

If the police are ordered to clear a park and the protesters refuse to leave, so from the police point of view arrest is necessary, don't you think there's a middle ground between "please" and cracking heads/tear gas?

what, like a timeout?

11/01/2011 10:32:07 PM · #39

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Oh yes, I do. But that's always a tough call on exactly what that middle ground is and that's why I don't want to be the mayor.

Spork's comment also brings light to another difficulty with these protests. There are so many that people may be talking about completely different things. In some the protesters may be completely reasonable, in others the police are the reasonable ones. It's hard to make any generalizations except the one where I said I wouldn't want to be the mayor... :)

Message edited by author 2011-11-01 22:35:23.

11/01/2011 10:33:33 PM · #40

Originally posted by tnun:

Apparently you didn't see the Google news article? :) I didn't read it, but just saw the headline about someone losing their virginity at a particular rally. Seemed rather odd so it stuck in my head.

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11/01/2011 10:36:45 PM · #41

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
..half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep.

It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

While I'm not opposed to what the people are trying to say (wait, what are they trying to say again?), I also don't envy the mayors who need to actually enforce the rule of law. If the park closes at 11PM, you can't just say, well, it's ok for you guys to be there. If neighbors are complaining that drums are being banged in the middle of the night you can't just say, well, they are protesting so it's ok. And brutality is never to be condoned, but the police aren't going to make a lot of headway with "please" and "thank you". It's a protest after all. Like I said, I'd hate to be the mayor.

Just because it's a law, it doesn't require enforcement. Certainly not with tear gas grenades and beatings.

It was 5am and by all accounts, quiet. Also, the area is NOT residential, it's surrounded by office buildings and businesses. The Mayor of Oakland even agreed in her written apology/statement that things went poorly, later instructing the police to allow the protesters to return.

You seem to be talking about a specific incident when Judith was saying there were multiple instances where camps were raided at night. I've just made comment on some of the stuff I've seen in the headlines. Really I don't have a ton of interest in the protests. It seems like a bunch of undirected angst. I do get an ironic kick about the New York protesters complaining about the homeless people. Maybe the 98% should meet the other 1%...

Message edited by author 2011-11-01 22:38:38.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

11/01/2011 10:43:28 PM · #42

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
If the police are ordered to clear a park and the protesters refuse to leave, so from the police point of view arrest is necessary, don't you think there's a middle ground between "please" and cracking heads/tear gas?

Oh yes, I do. But that's always a tough call on exactly what that middle ground is and that's why I don't want to be the mayor.

Spork's comment also brings light to another difficulty with these protests. There are so many that people may be talking about completely different things. In some the protesters may be completely reasonable, in others the police are the reasonable ones. It's hard to make any generalizations except the one where I said I wouldn't want to be the mayor... :)

Not such a tough call. How about they should act professionally....

tnun

Ricoh GR III

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

11/01/2011 10:44:58 PM · #43

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by tnun:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

I think a few people here should lose their virginity etc - their political virginity, that is.

What a curious brickbat ....

Apparently you didn't see the Google news article? :) I didn't read it, but just saw the headline about someone losing their virginity at a particular rally. Seemed rather odd so it stuck in my head.

Well golly, if the police were doing their job they might have helped him or her find their virginity and it wouldn't have stuck so much in your mind.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

11/01/2011 10:49:07 PM · #44

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
If the police are ordered to clear a park and the protesters refuse to leave, so from the police point of view arrest is necessary, don't you think there's a middle ground between "please" and cracking heads/tear gas?

Oh yes, I do. But that's always a tough call on exactly what that middle ground is and that's why I don't want to be the mayor.

Spork's comment also brings light to another difficulty with these protests. There are so many that people may be talking about completely different things. In some the protesters may be completely reasonable, in others the police are the reasonable ones. It's hard to make any generalizations except the one where I said I wouldn't want to be the mayor... :)

Not such a tough call. How about they should act professionally....

and yet they are human, with all the flaws that humans tend to have, when pushed they push back.

kenskid

Nikon D700

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11/01/2011 10:52:01 PM · #45

I was laughing about the homeless reaction also ! I also can't get over the iPhones and Androids posting on Twitter and Facebook ! Those are four BIG ASS corporations behind those products.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
..half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep.

It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

While I'm not opposed to what the people are trying to say (wait, what are they trying to say again?), I also don't envy the mayors who need to actually enforce the rule of law. If the park closes at 11PM, you can't just say, well, it's ok for you guys to be there. If neighbors are complaining that drums are being banged in the middle of the night you can't just say, well, they are protesting so it's ok. And brutality is never to be condoned, but the police aren't going to make a lot of headway with "please" and "thank you". It's a protest after all. Like I said, I'd hate to be the mayor.

Just because it's a law, it doesn't require enforcement. Certainly not with tear gas grenades and beatings.

It was 5am and by all accounts, quiet. Also, the area is NOT residential, it's surrounded by office buildings and businesses. The Mayor of Oakland even agreed in her written apology/statement that things went poorly, later instructing the police to allow the protesters to return.

You seem to be talking about a specific incident when Judith was saying there were multiple instances where camps were raided at night. I've just made comment on some of the stuff I've seen in the headlines. Really I don't have a ton of interest in the protests. It seems like a bunch of undirected angst. I do get an ironic kick about the New York protesters complaining about the homeless people. Maybe the 98% should meet the other 1%...

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

11/01/2011 10:58:00 PM · #46

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

So you admit to not paying attention, but here you are, posting your take?

This is what I get from you here: "Oh I don't know too much about it, haven't read anything, but I'll just dismiss it as trivial."

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/01/2011 10:59:14 PM · #47

Originally posted by mike_311:

and yet they are human, with all the flaws that humans tend to have, when pushed they push back.

One of the difficulties of being having a shield and carrying around a gun, a tazer, and a baton, is that if you put yourself in a situation where you might be pushed, you know you will have to hit back with overwhelming force. The better officers know when to hold back and not allow themselves to come in reach of being pushed. To talk down a perp. Hotheads go in with batons raised. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

11/01/2011 11:01:39 PM · #48

Who says corporations are bad or corporations making money is bad? They're only bad when they exert undue influence over the government. Or corporate interests outweigh those of the people. Oh, I forgot, corporations are people too, right? Except their not...they're better because they have extra rights and special privileges.

Originally posted by kenskid:

I was laughing about the homeless reaction also ! I also can't get over the iPhones and Androids posting on Twitter and Facebook ! Those are four BIG ASS corporations behind those products.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
..half of them in the middle of the night while most of the protesters were asleep.

It sounds like a cozy clutch of a half dozen tents all quiet at 2AM. That's not quite what I've heard with drums being beaten at all hours, people losing their virginity, etc. ;)

While I'm not opposed to what the people are trying to say (wait, what are they trying to say again?), I also don't envy the mayors who need to actually enforce the rule of law. If the park closes at 11PM, you can't just say, well, it's ok for you guys to be there. If neighbors are complaining that drums are being banged in the middle of the night you can't just say, well, they are protesting so it's ok. And brutality is never to be condoned, but the police aren't going to make a lot of headway with "please" and "thank you". It's a protest after all. Like I said, I'd hate to be the mayor.

Just because it's a law, it doesn't require enforcement. Certainly not with tear gas grenades and beatings.

It was 5am and by all accounts, quiet. Also, the area is NOT residential, it's surrounded by office buildings and businesses. The Mayor of Oakland even agreed in her written apology/statement that things went poorly, later instructing the police to allow the protesters to return.

You seem to be talking about a specific incident when Judith was saying there were multiple instances where camps were raided at night. I've just made comment on some of the stuff I've seen in the headlines. Really I don't have a ton of interest in the protests. It seems like a bunch of undirected angst. I do get an ironic kick about the New York protesters complaining about the homeless people. Maybe the 98% should meet the other 1%...

o2bskating

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

11/01/2011 11:09:00 PM · #49

Originally posted by kenskid:

it dosn't matter if they have iphones or not, it dosn't matter how big or rich the companies get. the problem is that OUR government let those companies pay them off and dictate how things will be. the companies don't mean anything it's the government where the problem is it's being bought, that's what everyone has a problem with. do u understand now?