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11/03/2011 05:34:48 PM · #151 |
Well, I'll leave the tactics up to the police who are better trained in such matters than you or I. And they DO have a job to protect the 99%, but that may be best done by removing them from the situation (I'll also leave that up to the police to decide how to handle).
Again, heaven forbid I support the police. I know that stance is generally verboten with the DPC crowd...
Message edited by author 2011-11-03 17:36:09. |
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11/03/2011 05:45:02 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
As The Supreme Ruler, I would fix the situation.
I would build arenas where gladiators battle to the death for the people's entertainment, and my profit. |
I can envision that. ...with much enthusiasm.
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11/03/2011 05:52:41 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And they DO have a job to protect the 99%, but that may be best done by removing them from the situation (I'll also leave that up to the police to decide how to handle). |
That does come off as a bit "Father knows best". The notion that a police action is for the good of those being rousted and arrested is often employed, rarely does it end up looking benevolent. As an elected official when you decide to risk harm to the public, and risk harm to the officers who have to carry out your orders, you better have a better reason that "this is for your own good". |
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11/03/2011 05:53:09 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I'll leave the tactics up to the police who are better trained in such matters than you or I. And they DO have a job to protect the 99%, but that may be best done by removing them from the situation (I'll also leave that up to the police to decide how to handle).
Again, heaven forbid I support the police. I know that stance is generally verboten with the DPC crowd... |
I support you on this one Doc...you know me :O)
Ray |
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11/03/2011 05:54:42 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I'll leave the tactics up to the police who are better trained in such matters than you or I. And they DO have a job to protect the 99%, but that may be best done by removing them from the situation (I'll also leave that up to the police to decide how to handle).
Again, heaven forbid I support the police. I know that stance is generally verboten with the DPC crowd... |
I support you on this one Doc...you know me :O)
Ray |
^^^^^ "The Man" |
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11/03/2011 06:00:08 PM · #156 |
Jason, I'm not saying it is unequivocally acceptable, but the occupying of spaces and declaring them Something or Other is standard procedure in good causes and bad. You sounded more shocked than I thought appropriate, hence the history remark. As well, our western history is full of the conflict between what is just and what is lawful; our western bivalent logic is ill equipped to deal with it. I can think of two stories - Les Miserables and a Canadian story told me a near witness. You all know that Jean Valjean was convicted for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family, but you don't know my story of the 12 pairs of socks, which had just been purchased by some chatelaine in northern Ontario for her husband. Not long afterwards she noticed some of them were missing so she quizzed the woman she hired as a laundress, who said with neither shame nor apology, Ain't no one need no 12 pairs of socks.
Message edited by author 2011-11-03 18:05:25. |
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11/03/2011 06:02:32 PM · #157 |
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive. |
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11/03/2011 06:04:53 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I'll leave the tactics up to the police who are better trained in such matters than you or I. And they DO have a job to protect the 99%, but that may be best done by removing them from the situation (I'll also leave that up to the police to decide how to handle).
Again, heaven forbid I support the police. I know that stance is generally verboten with the DPC crowd... |
I support you on this one Doc...you know me :O)
Ray |
^^^^^ "The Man" |
Merely a shill for The Man.
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11/03/2011 06:06:55 PM · #159 |
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11/03/2011 06:09:38 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City... |
I can agree with a majority of those grievances, but I also agree with Doc - what are they trying to accomplish? Making these things known - as if they are not already known. Many of these people have been at this for over a month, what's the plan? My prediction is that they will all simply fizzle away and either not vote in elections or continue to vote for the people that have convinced them that they are less responsible for these issues than the other guy. |
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11/03/2011 06:10:41 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I'll leave the tactics up to the police who are better trained in such matters than you or I. And they DO have a job to protect the 99%, but that may be best done by removing them from the situation (I'll also leave that up to the police to decide how to handle).
Again, heaven forbid I support the police. I know that stance is generally verboten with the DPC crowd... |
I support you on this one Doc...you know me :O)
Ray |
^^^^^ "The Man" |
Merely a shill for The Man. |
I do take umbrage at the term "shill". You obviously know nothing about me if you believe that.
Ray
Message edited by author 2011-11-03 18:12:25. |
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11/03/2011 06:11:28 PM · #162 |
They have forced Justin Bieber haircuts upon our tween boys!
They cancelled Arrested Development!
They got their peanut butter in our chocolate!
They hid the Beef!
They banned "I (heart) boobies" wristbands from our middle schools!
They kowtow to the SEC and reject Boise State!
This is kinda fun. Anybody else?
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11/03/2011 06:13:52 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City... |
I can agree with a majority of those grievances, but I also agree with Doc - what are they trying to accomplish? Making these things known - as if they are not already known. Many of these people have been at this for over a month, what's the plan? My prediction is that they will all simply fizzle away and either not vote in elections or continue to vote for the people that have convinced them that they are less responsible for these issues than the other guy. |
I take that back. A more likely scenario is that they allow these anarchists to hijack the "movement" and create mayhem that will ultimately end in a violent end to this and much costly damage to local businesses who are just trying to make a living. |
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11/03/2011 06:23:08 PM · #164 |
I get the feeling a bunch of people are just pissed off in general. Maybe civilization needs a reset, like an apocalyptic World War III.
I'll watch from my shelter:
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11/03/2011 08:26:26 PM · #165 |
deleted - double post
Message edited by author 2011-11-03 20:32:19. |
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11/03/2011 08:31:55 PM · #166 |
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. Only if you borrowed past your means.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. The bailouts were offered and paid back.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. Like that's possible in today's litigious society.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. Cant comment, don't know enough.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices. you may as well stop taking medication using any health or beauty product, otherwise this statement is entirely hypocritical.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. hmmm, sounds like the unions got in on this.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. education is a right? again borrowing past your means. besides i know lots of people who took out students loans and paid them back.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. everytime i hear leverage, unions are involved.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. Agree.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. Contracts, again union. provided healthcare is a benefit, always has been, you can buy your own.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity. you gave it to google and facebook
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. Yeah... becuase the press never drops bombshells anymore. i'd blame ratings and the internet for killing newspapers
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. agree
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. agree
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them. agree
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. i'd blame those alternative not being profitable, if anything the government is trying to force then down our throat.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit. really? once the patent runs out it becomes generic, so how do they block it? beside if you remove the enormous profits from proprietary, the drug companies dont have incentive to make new ones.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. agree
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. so how did we find out about all this stuff?
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. i dont get this one
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. huh?
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. not a fan but collateral damage happens
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. if there is a market... oh and thos weapons of mass destruction and defense contracts also provide a lot of technology...
Message edited by author 2011-11-03 20:33:44. |
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11/03/2011 08:53:25 PM · #167 |
I highly recommend downloading and listening to this interview from earlier today. The guest will clarify many of the issues, explore their origins, and offer some possibly practical suggestions for addressing them.
Program Summary:
Glenn Greenwald
Thu, Nov 3, 2011 -- 10:00 AM
Salon columnist Glenn Greenwald joins us in the studio to discuss the Occupy Wall Street movement, Wednesday's one-day general strike in Oakland and his new book, "With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful."
Host: Michael Krasny |
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11/03/2011 09:18:10 PM · #168 |
I had a bad day and really needed a laugh....thanks.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive. |
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11/03/2011 09:22:28 PM · #169 |
Once they start shutting down ports and business' and building fires in the streets, it's time to call it a day.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
A few bad eggs can certainly ruin a party, but the party will still likely have to end. I couldn't imagine being an officer now charged with sifting out the "good" protesters from the "bad" ones. Frankly it sounds like a mess down there with the mayor waffling back and forth between what they are going to allow and not. You can't just break into an empty building and declare it a community center. |
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11/03/2011 09:40:53 PM · #170 |
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. Only if you borrowed past your means.
-I know plenty of people who had no trouble paying their mortgage until they got canned because they markets got sent down the shitter. I suppose that was their fault too.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. The bailouts were offered and paid back.
-The bailouts were supposed to be used to help people, instead they were used to pay excessive salaries and huge bonuses to the same people who caused the need for a bailout. If I fuck up at work so bad that the entire industry needs to borrow huge amounts from the government, I'm probably not going to be there tomorrow let alone expect a generous raise and record bonus.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. Like that's possible in today's litigious society.
-Really, it is and I've seen it.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. Cant comment, don't know enough.
-Think hormones in meat and milk. Genetically engineered produce, patents on plants.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices. you may as well stop taking medication using any health or beauty product, otherwise this statement is entirely hypocritical.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. hmmm, sounds like the unions got in on this.
-So, that makes it OK? Management bargains collectively, why shouldn't workers?
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. education is a right? again borrowing past your means. besides i know lots of people who took out students loans and paid them back.
-A university education is pretty much a necessity for any decent paying job. Tuition required to get that degree is more and more expensive. I paid under $1200/year in tuition and fees to go to one of the top public universities in my home state. Now, that same education will cost $12000/year because the government has had to cut education while taxes on the wealthiest stay at record low rates and taxes on corporations are lower still.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. everytime i hear leverage, unions are involved.
-I'm not in a union and I've seen my jobs go overseas, twice. Of course, when it happens, my boss just tells me I'm fucked and asks me to stay around until my foreign replacement is "up to speed" if I want my "severance package".
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. Agree.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. Contracts, again union. provided healthcare is a benefit, always has been, you can buy your own.
-No, you can't always buy your own insurance. That's just bullshit. I went to get coverage on my own for my family. I looked at lots of plans, companies etc. They all asked lots of questions about health history for each member of the family. My son had a health issue when he was 3, it was and has remained in remission. Every single company rejected us based on that.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity. you gave it to google and facebook
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. Yeah... becuase the press never drops bombshells anymore. i'd blame ratings and the internet for killing newspapers
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. agree
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. agree
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them. agree
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. i'd blame those alternative not being profitable, if anything the government is trying to force then down our throat.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit. really? once the patent runs out it becomes generic, so how do they block it? beside if you remove the enormous profits from proprietary, the drug companies dont have incentive to make new ones.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. agree
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. so how did we find out about all this stuff?
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. i dont get this one
-Think Troy Davis
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. huh?
-The 1%, the government and the corporations are the colonizers. The rest of us have been given a bunch of blankets from the smallpox clinic.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. not a fan but collateral damage happens
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. if there is a market... oh and thos weapons of mass destruction and defense contracts also provide a lot of technology...
Message edited by author 2011-11-03 21:43:19. |
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11/03/2011 10:22:48 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
I'm OK with most of this. How about verification of income/credit for government guaranteed loans. The banks had no requirement or incentive to check. That's how the most toxic loans or the "self-verified" loans came to pass. |
I think Art will tell you in his opinion a large amount of the foreclosure SNAFU were born during the Clinton years when he directed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to lower their credit standards in an effort to allow a wider range of people buy a home. See this 1999 NYT article. Of course the reality is both issues bear some blame.
EDIT: It's always fun to look in the wayback machine. Check out this paragraph from that article, again, written in 1999:
"In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's." |
Originally posted by Matt Taibbi:
This whole notion that the financial crisis was caused by government attempts to create an "ownership society" and make mortgages more available to low-income (and particularly minority) borrowers has been pushed for some time by dingbats like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who often point to laws like the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act as signature events in the crash drama.
But Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are at least dumb enough that it is theoretically possible that they actually believe the crash was caused by the CRA, Barney Frank, and Fannie and Freddie.
On the other hand, nobody who actually understands anything about banking, or has spent more than ten minutes inside a Wall Street office, believes any of that crap. In the financial world, the fairy tales about the CRA causing the crash inspire a sort of chuckling bemusement, as though they were tribal bugaboos explaining bad rainfall or an outbreak of hoof-and-mouth, ghost stories and legends good for scaring the masses.
But nobody actually believes them. Did government efforts to ease lending standards put a lot of iffy borrowers into homes? Absolutely. Were there a lot of people who wouldn’t have gotten homes twenty or thirty years ago who are now in foreclosure thanks to government efforts to make mortgages more available? Sure – no question.
But did any of that have anything at all to do with the explosion of subprime home lending that caused the gigantic speculative bubble of the mid-2000s, or the crash that followed?
Not even slightly. The whole premise is preposterous.
In order for this vision of history to be true, one would have to imagine that all of these banks were dragged, kicking and screaming, to the altar of home lending, forced against their will to create huge volumes of home loans for unqualified borrowers.
In fact, just the opposite was true. This was an orgiastic stampede of lending, undertaken with something very like bloodlust. Far from being dragged into poor neighborhoods and forced to give out home loans to jobless black folk, companies like Countrywide and New Century charged into suburbs and exurbs from coast to coast with the enthusiasm of Rwandan machete mobs, looking to create as many loans as they could.
They lent to anyone with a pulse and they didn’t need Barney Frank to give them a push. This was not social policy. This was greed. They created those loans not because they had to, but because it was profitable. Enormously, gigantically profitable -- profitable enough to create huge fortunes out of thin air, with a speed never seen before in Wall Street's history.
The typical money-machine cycle of subprime lending took place without any real government involvement. Bank A (let’s say it’s Goldman, Sachs) lends criminal enterprise B (let’s say it’s Countrywide) a billion dollars. Countrywide then goes out and creates a billion dollars of shoddy home loans, committing any and all kinds of fraud along the way in an effort to produce as many loans as quickly as possible, very often putting people who shouldn’t have gotten homes into homes, faking their income levels, their credit scores, etc.
Goldman then buys back those loans from Countrywide, places them in an offshore trust, and chops them up into securities. Here they use fancy math to turn a billion dollars of subprime junk into different types of securities, some of them AAA-rated, some of them junk-rated, etc. They then go out on the open market and sell those securities to various big customers – pension funds, foreign trade unions, hedge funds, and so on.
The whole game was based on one new innovation: the derivative instruments like CDOs that allowed them to take junk-rated home loans and turn them into AAA-rated instruments. It was not Barney Frank who made it possible for Goldman, Sachs to sell the home loan of an occasionally-employed janitor in Oakland or Detroit as something just as safe as, and more profitable than, a United States Treasury Bill. This was something they cooked up entirely by themselves and developed solely with the aim of making more money.
The government’s efforts to make home loans more available to people showed up in a few places in this whole tableau. For one thing, it made it easier for the Countrywides of the world to create their giant masses of loans. And secondly, the Fannies and Freddies of the world were big customers of the banks, buying up mortgage-backed securities in bulk along with the rest of the suckers. Without a doubt, the bubble would not have been as big, or inflated as fast, without Fannie and Freddie.
But the bubble was overwhelmingly built around a single private-sector economic reality that had nothing to do with any of that: new financial instruments made it possible to sell crap loans as AAA-rated paper.
Fannie and Freddie had nothing to do with Merrill Lynch selling $16.5 billion worth of crap mortgage-backed securities to the Connecticut Carpenters Annuity Fund, the Mississippi Public Employees' Retirement System, the Connecticut Carpenters Pension Fund, and the Los Angeles County Employees Retirement Association. Citigroup and Deutsche Bank did not need to be pushed by Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi to sell hundreds of millions of dollars in crappy MBS to Allstate.
And Goldman, Sachs did not need Franklin Raines to urge it to sell $1.2 billion in designed-to-fail mortgage-backed instruments to two of the country’s largest corporate credit unions, which subsequently went bust and had to be swallowed up by the National Credit Union Administration.
These banks did not need to be dragged kicking and screaming to make the billions of dollars in profits from these and other similar selling-baby-powder-as-coke transactions. They did it for the money, and they did it because they did not give a fuck who got hurt. |
Read the article in its entirety here.
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11/03/2011 11:33:29 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I get the feeling a bunch of people are just pissed off in general. Maybe civilization needs a reset, like an apocalyptic World War III.
I'll watch from my shelter:
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that would fix the economy, hell war is one of the biggest money makers out there. |
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11/04/2011 12:17:46 AM · #173 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I get the feeling a bunch of people are just pissed off in general. Maybe civilization needs a reset, like an apocalyptic World War III.
I'll watch from my shelter:
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that would fix the economy, hell war is one of the biggest money makers out there. |
If you're a contractor. Our veterans have a 20% unemployment rate after putting their lives on the line so that we can protest. |
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11/04/2011 12:48:35 AM · #174 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Read the article in its entirety here. |
Of course it was both issues. I'm not saying anything else. The widening of the credit risk to allow far more people to suddenly be able to buy a house was the opportunity for the speculators and greedy people to take advantage of. More demand with a lag in supply equals an increase in value. Bubble forms. Speculators go crazy. Suddenly my great-aunt is flipping four houses a year. Bubble pops. It was the law of unintended consequences, but you are blind if you don't understand that that change in policy at Fannie Mae was at least part of the story.
Message edited by author 2011-11-04 00:49:16. |
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11/04/2011 06:37:18 AM · #175 |
[quote=Spork99]
-I know plenty of people who had no trouble paying their mortgage until they got canned because they markets got sent down the shitter. I suppose that was their fault too.
So who fault is that? Its corporate america? they have one job. to make money, to appease stockholders. if cutting costs and jobs gets them there so be it. it sucks if it happens to you but blaming the companies for your bad luck is not right.
-The bailouts were supposed to be used to help people, instead they were used to pay excessive salaries and huge bonuses to the same people who caused the need for a bailout. If I fuck up at work so bad that the entire industry needs to borrow huge amounts from the government, I'm probably not going to be there tomorrow let alone expect a generous raise and record bonus.
Hey i agree with you, i would have rather seen what happens had we let these banks go under, i was never in favor of a government bailout, but it was OFFERED and they took it and paid it back. Blame the government. but im sure you are going to tell me that the government is in bed with the companies, yes i agree, so who is accountable? your representation lets it happen, pressure them for laws to get rid of it.
-Think hormones in meat and milk. Genetically engineered produce, patents on plants.
and im sure that the massive population had nothing to do with it right? people are complaining about high food prices now, imagine if all this food needed to be produced naturally?
-So, that makes it OK? Management bargains collectively, why shouldn't workers?
no it doesn't make it ok but lets not act like unions are the savior of the workplace, in fact i'd argue that collective bargaining is part of the big problem, look at all the states they are going broke trying to pay for pensions that were collectively bargained, now those pensions cant be cut. we know what the problem is and we cant fix it. do you want to know why GM and Ford are struggling and toyota and honda not? yep. pensions, two have worker unions and two do not.
-A university education is pretty much a necessity for any decent paying job. Tuition required to get that degree is more and more expensive. I paid under $1200/year in tuition and fees to go to one of the top public universities in my home state. Now, that same education will cost $12000/year because the government has had to cut education while taxes on the wealthiest stay at record low rates and taxes on corporations are lower still.
how does any of that affect the college tuition? and i'll argue that paying $48,000 for a well paying job is a bargain. its less than one year salary you will make coming out of school. oh and you dont need a college education to have a good paying job, you needed to have a college education to have a cushy easy job, go talk to an iron worker making $100 an hour how much he paid for college education, or a carpenter, or an electrician or welder or.. those are hard jobs and nobody wants them becuase they are hard.
-I'm not in a union and I've seen my jobs go overseas, twice. Of course, when it happens, my boss just tells me I'm fucked and asks me to stay around until my foreign replacement is "up to speed" if I want my "severance package".
my wife just went through the same thing, they voluntarily stayed till the end to get there severance. she she is currently going back to school while the government picks up the full bill and pays her unemployment since her job went oversees. if opportunities are available, you take advantage of them
-No, you can't always buy your own insurance. That's just bullshit. I went to get coverage on my own for my family. I looked at lots of plans, companies etc. They all asked lots of questions about health history for each member of the family. My son had a health issue when he was 3, it was and has remained in remission. Every single company rejected us based on that.
im not going to disagree that the pre-existing condition system, whole system for that matter doesn't need to be overhauled, but again having the company provide healthcare is a BENEFIT, like vacation, sick time, etc, its not required that they give it to you.
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my complaint with these protests is not that they are protesting, they are off base, they are too scattered in their "demands" as evident from the list we have been referring to. We need a real protest, one that focuses on closing the corporate takeover of America, we need a constitutional amendment to get rid of corporate contributions to campaigns, we need to get our representatives to represent those that elect them, not those who fund them.
Its misguided to be blaming companies for doing what they are supposed to do and not blaming the government and elected officials for what they supposed to do.
if government did its job and served the people we wouldn't need these protests.
Message edited by author 2011-11-04 06:44:22. |
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