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03/08/2012 09:50:07 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by bryanbrazil:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Basic editing challenges us to get it right at the time of exposure. Can't clone that pole out of someone's head afterwards, you have to pay attention. Basic has it's place. |
+100 |
+ 1 MILLION, unless you're into the later Austin Powers, in which case make that 1 BILLION (1 thousand million for those of you not in the US). |
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03/08/2012 10:00:56 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by bryanbrazil:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Basic editing challenges us to get it right at the time of exposure. Can't clone that pole out of someone's head afterwards, you have to pay attention. Basic has it's place. |
+100 |
+ 1 MILLION, unless you're into the later Austin Powers, in which case make that 1 BILLION (1 thousand million for those of you not in the US). |
if that's the case, lets get rid of minimal editing. |
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03/08/2012 10:18:34 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by bryanbrazil:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Basic editing challenges us to get it right at the time of exposure. Can't clone that pole out of someone's head afterwards, you have to pay attention. Basic has it's place. |
+100 |
+ 1 MILLION, unless you're into the later Austin Powers, in which case make that 1 BILLION (1 thousand million for those of you not in the US). |
if that's the case, lets get rid of minimal editing. |
Well, not sure why you want to take a photography learning experience away from members. Minimal editing really requires a lot of planning and thinking. Participation in Minimal Editing challenges enhances understanding of light and how to use camera equipment to capture same. What bothers me about Advanced Editing and above is the mindset that one can be sloppy in photography and then .... FIX IT IN PHOTOSHOP. This relates to the old chicken salad saying. I'd recommend keeping Minimal Editing, as is. Okay with me to modify Basic Editing, but it's still a valuable ruleset. Advanced Editing is okay, as is. I don't have much use for Expert Editing for photography purposes. |
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03/08/2012 10:53:07 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
basic editing is like fooling around with the girl and not being able to go all the way. it might be fun and good enough for some a times, but in the end, its frustrating and pointless. |
There have been many occasions in my life where getting "boinked" was not at the forefront of my endeavours.
Developing skills that need no artificial means of support truly is not something we ought to be shying away from, but rather something that should we strive for.
Knowing how to truly satisfy a woman is not limited to one's exploits in the boudoir. :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-03-08 23:09:10. |
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03/09/2012 12:24:52 AM · #130 |
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03/09/2012 06:53:00 AM · #131 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Well, not sure why you want to take a photography learning experience away from members. Minimal editing really requires a lot of planning and thinking. Participation in Minimal Editing challenges enhances understanding of light and how to use camera equipment to capture same. What bothers me about Advanced Editing and above is the mindset that one can be sloppy in photography and then .... FIX IT IN PHOTOSHOP. This relates to the old chicken salad saying. I'd recommend keeping Minimal Editing, as is. Okay with me to modify Basic Editing, but it's still a valuable ruleset. Advanced Editing is okay, as is. I don't have much use for Expert Editing for photography purposes. |
how is anyone trying to take away someones photography learning experience? its your camera do whatever you want with it.
people are taking my reasoning to get rid of basic the wrong way. I dont want to get rid of basic because i dont like spending more time in camera. i want to get rid of basic becuase when i go to post processing i want the most tools available to me to enhance my image.
i like to have control over how my images look in the end. i dont go into a shoot with the mindset that i can fix it in post. I can't, if the image sucks, its going to suck after finishing within the advanced rule set. The only shot i have to salvage any poor images is with the expert rule set.
like it or not post processing is a huge part in the workflow of digital photography, why are we trying to limit it?
Originally posted by RayEthier:
There have been many occasions in my life where getting "boinked" was not at the forefront of my endeavours.
Developing skills that need no artificial means of support truly is not something we ought to be shying away from, but rather something that should we strive for.
Knowing how to truly satisfy a woman is not limited to one's exploits in the boudoir. :O)
Ray |
touche.
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03/09/2012 07:29:06 AM · #132 |
I don't like expert editing, we should do away with it also. In fact minimal editing is rediculous and we should do away with that. ...and advanced editing is totally wrong. Basic editing is the only one we should be doing.
You can't please everyone all the time. If you don't like Basic editing, don't enter. It's really that easy. But to limit the different editing rules just because you don't like them is not the correct avenue either. |
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03/09/2012 07:48:43 AM · #133 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I don't like expert editing, we should do away with it also. In fact minimal editing is rediculous and we should do away with that. ...and advanced editing is totally wrong. Basic editing is the only one we should be doing.
You can't please everyone all the time. If you don't like Basic editing, don't enter. It's really that easy. But to limit the different editing rules just because you don't like them is not the correct avenue either. |
Agreed! I don't and probably won't enter expert for a long time... haven't seen any minimal challenges since becoming active on the forums. But I prefer basic to advanced... simply because it creates the most natural look, AND, I don't know all the rules for editing around here yet, lol.
Don't get me wrong, I like the advanced look and want to learn even more, but basic teaches you constraint... discipline (in a way). Don't do away with basic, or any of the others.
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03/09/2012 08:02:56 AM · #134 |
Originally posted by dyridings:
Agreed! I don't and probably won't enter expert for a long time... haven't seen any minimal challenges since becoming active on the forums. But I prefer basic to advanced... simply because it creates the most natural look, AND, I don't know all the rules for editing around here yet, lol.
Don't get me wrong, I like the advanced look and want to learn even more, but basic teaches you constraint... discipline (in a way). Don't do away with basic, or any of the others. |
this is like saying that we shouldn't be able to use off camera flash becuase you don't know how to use it. lack of experience using photo editing software is not a good reason to keep basic editing.
and basic doesn't create the most natural look, the ability to use topaz kills that argument.
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03/09/2012 08:07:13 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
this is like saying that we shouldn't be able to use off camera flash becuase you don't know how to use it. lack of experience using photo editing software is not a good reason to keep basic editing.
and basic doesn't create the most natural look, the ability to use topaz kills that argument. |
Didn't know topaz was allowed in basic. See, still learning.
And I wasn't saying that lack of experience was a reason to KEEP basic, I said that I PREFER basic for that reason. :)
Message edited by author 2012-03-09 08:09:14.
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03/09/2012 08:10:27 AM · #136 |
Not everyone that comes to this site new is a PS wizard, it gives them a place to start. Again, and let me rephrase it a little clearer. This site is not just about you! There are many great photographers and a lot of new ones up and coming and need a place to start. The equipment end of it is also a growing point that many learn from this site including external flash, strobes, hot lights, backdrops. When first starting you don't quite get it right and get the appropriate feedback.
I rarely use anything above basic editing and enjoy the results I get. ETA: even in advanced challenges
Message edited by author 2012-03-09 08:11:16. |
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03/09/2012 08:21:11 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
Not everyone that comes to this site new is a PS wizard, it gives them a place to start. Again, and let me rephrase it a little clearer. This site is not just about you! There are many great photographers and a lot of new ones up and coming and need a place to start. The equipment end of it is also a growing point that many learn from this site including external flash, strobes, hot lights, backdrops. When first starting you don't quite get it right and get the appropriate feedback.
I rarely use anything above basic editing and enjoy the results I get. ETA: even in advanced challenges |
to be honest i rarely use anything above basic as well, but there are many times when i need or want to go into the advanced rule set to do something.
im not some photoshop wiz either, i mainly use lightroom for 95% of my entries.
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03/09/2012 11:34:55 AM · #138 |
I haven't read this whole thread, but I do have some observations about our so-called "basic" editing ruleset. I've been using Photoshop for a LONG time, long before I encountered DPC, so I have some background.
When I first came here, basic editing was more restrictive than it is now. You weren't allowed to clone out dust spots, for one thing. It's loosened up to where there are basically only three real differences between "basic" and "advanced": you can't clone out minor distractions in basic, you can't spot-edit, and you can't use pixel-based layers or alternative layer modes in basic. The first is a "real" restriction. So is the second. The third, not so much so; there's little you can do with those layers that you can't do without them, they are just a more efficient way of accomplishing things.
So, leaving aside the cloning and spot editing issues, the rest of what basic editing does is teach bad Photoshop practices. I'm serious about that. People who only do basic-legal editing are using Photoshop the wrong way. Therefore, to whatever extent DPC is a "learning site", and a lot of folks insist that's what it is, it's teaching bad practices, not "best practices".
Regarding the argument that many make -- "I'm not experienced at Photoshop, and I like basic editing because it levels the playing field." -- nothing could be further from the truth. Basic editing tilts the field in favor of those who really understand Photoshop. The reason this is true is because, with the exception of the spot-editing business, there's little you can accomplish legally (and easily) in advanced editing that you can't also accomplish (with considerably more effort) in basic editing. And the more you understand Photoshop, the easier it is to find those workarounds.
Now, there's been a trend over the last few years to tacitly acknowledge what I'm saying above, by opening the door to more and more third-party plugins (Nik, Topaz, and the like) in basic editing, and this has definitely helped level the field by making sophisticated effects available at the bush of a button. But is this "basic"?
Here's what I believe; the line between basic and advanced editing has become so blurred it's no longer a valid distinction. "Basic Editing" should be dropped. Instead, our baseline ruleset should be what we now call "Minimal Editing", with a couple changes; we should be allowed to clone dust, and we should be allowed to rotate in whatever increments we choose, not just 90-degree increments. I'm in favor of continuing to require minimal editing to use JPG originals.
That's my 2 cents' worth... :-) It may be repeating what others have said, but I haven't read the whole thread...
R.
Message edited by author 2012-03-09 11:36:23.
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03/09/2012 12:11:55 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by hajeka:
Originally posted by mike_311:
.....
this is exactly the point of this thread, basic editing is far too restrictive.
minimal
advanced
expert
this is all we need. |
Eh, but what about good photos? |
LOL :D |
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03/09/2012 12:13:40 PM · #140 |
| I agree with what Bear said about basic but for that change to happen we would have to have some minimal challenges, as it stands them in charge must think: minimal = less participants = less hits = less members = less money, we hardly have any minimal challenges anymore, are we scared to look at our photos straight out of the camera for fear of really seeing our photography skills? My moods not great today, backache and all that, sorry. |
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03/09/2012 12:18:41 PM · #141 |
Basic rule set is flawed because it's too much in the middle of minimal and advanced... I've looked at images that were straight from the camera and ones that have been completely created on a computer, and they both have their own plusses and minuses. However, I think basic (or minimal) makes you even MORE creative, but in a different sense. Certainly ones artistic abilities come to the forefront when using the expert rules, but ones creative abilities are displayed when arriving at the same effect without using a computer. I look at  gyaban as an example: he is obviously amazing at post processing but quite often uses the basics of photography to achieve the effects. it's a pity he doesn't enter more basic or minimal entries; it'd be interesting to see how he places. look at this image for example:
...amazing but it has the basics in the classic theory of photography and he busted his a** to get the shot.
to get off this rant i think basic should be more basic, i.e. minimal, just because it highlights a different photographic sense than the others. I second Giles_uk's thoughts of having direct from the camera challenges, solely because it makes you think about everything (EVERYTHING) beforehand and literally lets you capture the moment without letting you change the parameters of the past.
and i'm not just saying all this because my PB is in the bresson challenge :-D |
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03/09/2012 12:28:07 PM · #142 |
So after reading more about minimal vs. basic, I agree with others who have stated there should be more minimal challenges and do away with basic. This is what I was trying to get at, but haven't been here long enough to realize what the minimal challenges were really like.
Agree with Bear_Music on his original post.
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03/09/2012 12:31:59 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I haven't read this whole thread, but I do have some observations about our so-called "basic" editing ruleset. I've been using Photoshop for a LONG time, long before I encountered DPC, so I have some background.
When I first came here, basic editing was more restrictive than it is now. You weren't allowed to clone out dust spots, for one thing. It's loosened up to where there are basically only three real differences between "basic" and "advanced": you can't clone out minor distractions in basic, you can't spot-edit, and you can't use pixel-based layers or alternative layer modes in basic. The first is a "real" restriction. So is the second. The third, not so much so; there's little you can do with those layers that you can't do without them, they are just a more efficient way of accomplishing things.
So, leaving aside the cloning and spot editing issues, the rest of what basic editing does is teach bad Photoshop practices. I'm serious about that. People who only do basic-legal editing are using Photoshop the wrong way. Therefore, to whatever extent DPC is a "learning site", and a lot of folks insist that's what it is, it's teaching bad practices, not "best practices".
Regarding the argument that many make -- "I'm not experienced at Photoshop, and I like basic editing because it levels the playing field." -- nothing could be further from the truth. Basic editing tilts the field in favor of those who really understand Photoshop. The reason this is true is because, with the exception of the spot-editing business, there's little you can accomplish legally (and easily) in advanced editing that you can't also accomplish (with considerably more effort) in basic editing. And the more you understand Photoshop, the easier it is to find those workarounds.
Now, there's been a trend over the last few years to tacitly acknowledge what I'm saying above, by opening the door to more and more third-party plugins (Nik, Topaz, and the like) in basic editing, and this has definitely helped level the field by making sophisticated effects available at the bush of a button. But is this "basic"?
Here's what I believe; the line between basic and advanced editing has become so blurred it's no longer a valid distinction. "Basic Editing" should be dropped. Instead, our baseline ruleset should be what we now call "Minimal Editing", with a couple changes; we should be allowed to clone dust, and we should be allowed to rotate in whatever increments we choose, not just 90-degree increments. I'm in favor of continuing to require minimal editing to use JPG originals.
That's my 2 cents' worth... :-) It may be repeating what others have said, but I haven't read the whole thread...
R. |
Thanks much for that Robert, I agree with everything you say :)
People jumped on me a page or two ago because they thought I intended to suggest we go with just Advanced and above rule sets. Nothing of the sort! I just see Basic as being in this awkward middle ground that can still be forgiving of lazy shooting and does not level the playing field for beginners.
If we truly want to challenge ourselves to get everything right with the capture, something like Minimal would make more sense to achieve this. In addition to what you suggest to be changed in the Minimal rule set to make it maybe a little less "frustrating" at times, I would like to see at least some cropping latitude (maybe just one or two edges of the frame). I am not looking to be able to shoot wide and zoom in with my decision later by cropping. I would just like to have better control of putting my subject in a pleasing portion of the image without ending up with a trash can or some guy picking his nose in one corner of the frame in order to do so.
Message edited by author 2012-03-09 12:32:50. |
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03/09/2012 12:45:45 PM · #144 |
| I agree with Bear and Brent. The addition of the ability to use Topaz and some of the other plugins made Basic much more like advanced and in the hands of good Photoshoppers, way above the skills and budget of new photographers. It would be good to balance out all the Expert challenges with more Minimal challenges but at the very least allow cropping as all viewfinders are not 100% and many times, even with careful composition, stray things end up on the edge of the frame. |
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03/09/2012 01:11:43 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by mrchhas:
I look at gyaban as an example: he is obviously amazing at post processing but quite often uses the basics of photography to achieve the effects. it's a pity he doesn't enter more basic or minimal entries; it'd be interesting to see how he places. look at this image for example:
...amazing but it has the basics in the classic theory of photography and he busted his a** to get the shot. |
For what's is worth, I've entered many basic editing challenge in the past, even several minimal editing ones. It can be fun, but honestly I don't feel like entering them much more: I have the feeling that my time is poorly invested there. Why? Because I don't fully like the photos I shot for these challenges: most of the time, I even don't show them outside of DPC. And I also cannot post-process them more to get something I would like better, because they have been specifically designed for basic editing.
For example, if you look at this one  , I knew I wanted a strong vignette. Adding a vignette is forbidden in basic editing, so what to do? Use modifiers on my lighting, to make it very directional, and get naturally dark edges. But then, I got some harsh shadows. I was simply stuck with that result, despite the fact I perfectly knew what to do to get where I wanted (i.e. use softboxes and add the vignette in post-processing). Pure frustration, and many hours of work for a shot I don't like in the end due to arbitrary restrictions. And this is just a little example, almost all my shots realized in basic editing only made it to DPC, not even my Flickr gallery, because I don't like them enough like that, and can't correct efficiently what I dislike. So, why bother?
Message edited by author 2012-03-09 13:12:21. |
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03/09/2012 01:59:01 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
"Basic Editing" should be dropped. Instead, our baseline ruleset should be what we now call "Minimal Editing", with a couple changes; we should be allowed to clone dust, and we should be allowed to rotate in whatever increments we choose, not just 90-degree increments.
R. |
Just to clarify, Robert, if we allowed non-90 degree rotations, wouldn't we then need to allow cropping? Otherwise we'd be creating new image area (and the images would be odd-looking). |
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03/09/2012 02:04:46 PM · #147 |
I do see a value in a rules set which doesn't allow for cropping, as that develops a very specific range of skills, not just in terms of exclusion of elements, but also of having to work with a specific ratio, as arbitrary as this might be.
as for allowing more freedom of processing, I am a bit in doubt about that, but perhaps I shouldn't.
there'll always be people with a precise idea of what makes photography autonomous as an art, and willing to set their own limits to frame what they like to say. |
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03/09/2012 02:42:15 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by gyaban:
For what's is worth, I've entered many basic editing challenge in the past, even several minimal editing ones. It can be fun, but honestly I don't feel like entering them much more: I have the feeling that my time is poorly invested there. Why? Because I don't fully like the photos I shot for these challenges: most of the time, I even don't show them outside of DPC. And I also cannot post-process them more to get something I would like better, because they have been specifically designed for basic editing.
For example, if you look at this one , I knew I wanted a strong vignette. Adding a vignette is forbidden in basic editing, so what to do? Use modifiers on my lighting, to make it very directional, and get naturally dark edges. But then, I got some harsh shadows. I was simply stuck with that result, despite the fact I perfectly knew what to do to get where I wanted (i.e. use softboxes and add the vignette in post-processing). Pure frustration, and many hours of work for a shot I don't like in the end due to arbitrary restrictions. And this is just a little example, almost all my shots realized in basic editing only made it to DPC, not even my Flickr gallery, because I don't like them enough like that, and can't correct efficiently what I dislike. So, why bother? |
bingo. |
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03/09/2012 02:55:01 PM · #149 |
| I'm all for getting rid of basic, as long as we have as many minimal challenges as expert, fare is fare, if it's just so we have more expert and hardly any minimal, I'll not hang around for long for sure. We all have our preferences and there should be equal ground for all tastes, if basic goes then most challenges will be advanced, that will be great I think but when we have an expert challenge we should also have a minimal challenge, if we don't it wouldn't be fare. |
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03/09/2012 02:56:55 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by gyaban:
For what's is worth, I've entered many basic editing challenge in the past, even several minimal editing ones. It can be fun, but honestly I don't feel like entering them much more: I have the feeling that my time is poorly invested there. Why? Because I don't fully like the photos I shot for these challenges: most of the time, I even don't show them outside of DPC. And I also cannot post-process them more to get something I would like better, because they have been specifically designed for basic editing.
For example, if you look at this one , I knew I wanted a strong vignette. Adding a vignette is forbidden in basic editing, so what to do? Use modifiers on my lighting, to make it very directional, and get naturally dark edges. But then, I got some harsh shadows. I was simply stuck with that result, despite the fact I perfectly knew what to do to get where I wanted (i.e. use softboxes and add the vignette in post-processing). Pure frustration, and many hours of work for a shot I don't like in the end due to arbitrary restrictions. And this is just a little example, almost all my shots realized in basic editing only made it to DPC, not even my Flickr gallery, because I don't like them enough like that, and can't correct efficiently what I dislike. So, why bother? |
bingo. |
bingo? I must be on the wrong site, if you achieve a blue ribbon but not prepared to share your image outside of dpc maybe this is the wrong site to be on? Gyaban is an excellent photographer and better than I'll ever be but I sometimes wonder if he (or anybody else for that matter) are better at making silk purses out of..... to coin a phrase.
Now, I've been away for a while so not up on the dynamics of dpc today however if I were new to the site and read this I'd probably move on.
I wonder just how many people would be happy submitting their original in their notes? I would and maybe that would show the masses that their boring flat image could be a ribbon winner with some deft post processing?
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