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10/20/2011 11:50:54 AM · #51 |
| keep basic. eliminate filters in basic. |
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10/20/2011 11:51:14 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
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+1 LOL |
Going to the store for more popcorn...
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10/20/2011 12:14:03 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by giantmike:
Sorry tnun and ShutterPug, but I don't think your arguments hold much water.
Level Playing Field: Simply isn't true. In fact, basic editing makes the playing field even less even in that post processing experts can much more easily get around the confines of Basic, while those of us with less skill are stuck.
Scaring Newbies: Is we named it "Normal" editing instead of "Advanced", I'm sure it wouldn't be as scary.
I'm not really calling you two out, it's just that I see these arguments the most often for keeping Basic, and I think they just don't work. |
I agree this argument doesn't hold any water for me either. Here is my side of the argument. Basic editing makes it so that you must have an expensive camera good equipment and all the accessories to take a good shot. If you don't then you must be very creative and it really limits what you can shoot. I had an idea for the baby toddler challenge but I knew I couldn't shoot it because my make shift studio wouldn't accommodate it.
People say it isn't fair because only those who know how to use photoshop will win. But the tutorials on how to use photoshop are free and anyone can access them. Having a fancy camera and all the accessories are not available to everyone.
My argument is that getting rid of the basic challenges would actually level the playing field more. Of course you still have to take good photographs and have good ideas to win. But at least you won't be limited by the fact that you didn't have a big expensive flash to take with you on a shoot or that you don't have a studio background in every color under the sun.
That said, I actually do enjoy the challenge of an occasional Basic editing challenge. I just wish they had a rule that we could only have 1 a month. I think the majority of the challenges should be Advanced, with one a month in basic or minimal and one a month in expert. |
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10/20/2011 12:22:56 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by giantmike:
Sorry tnun and ShutterPug, but I don't think your arguments hold much water.
Level Playing Field: Simply isn't true. In fact, basic editing makes the playing field even less even in that post processing experts can much more easily get around the confines of Basic, while those of us with less skill are stuck.
Scaring Newbies: Is we named it "Normal" editing instead of "Advanced", I'm sure it wouldn't be as scary.
I'm not really calling you two out, it's just that I see these arguments the most often for keeping Basic, and I think they just don't work. |
i agree with this. when i first started on this site i was intimidated by the advanced rule set but the more i started to edit the i hated to restrictions of basic editing, basic editing now seems too minimalist. i also felt that entering a basic challenge put me on a level playing field, but it turns out that since other techniques i was unfamiliar with what people were getting away with in basic was putting me at a disadvantage.
advanced editing really isn't advanced, its toolbox should be included into what basic editing is, considering expert editing is where the real photo manipulation comes into play.
Minimal editing: final picture created mainly in the camera.
Normal editing: final picture created with camera and editing.
Expert editing: final picture created mainly in the editing.
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10/20/2011 12:30:22 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by sjhuls:
I agree this argument doesn't hold any water for me either. Here is my side of the argument. Basic editing makes it so that you must have an expensive camera good equipment and all the accessories to take a good shot. If you don't then you must be very creative and it really limits what you can shoot. I had an idea for the baby toddler challenge but I knew I couldn't shoot it because my make shift studio wouldn't accommodate it.
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And this argument doesn't fly either.
Photography is about capturing light. Basic and Minimal editing require finding good light (at least to take a decent picture) because one can't compensate for it with global editing (unless, of course, one has topaz adjust). Advanced and Expert editing allow one to 'make' the light if it wasn't there to begin with. |
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10/20/2011 12:38:17 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by sjhuls:
I agree this argument doesn't hold any water for me either. Here is my side of the argument. Basic editing makes it so that you must have an expensive camera good equipment and all the accessories to take a good shot. If you don't then you must be very creative and it really limits what you can shoot. I had an idea for the baby toddler challenge but I knew I couldn't shoot it because my make shift studio wouldn't accommodate it.
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And this argument doesn't fly either.
Photography is about capturing light. Basic and Minimal editing require finding good light (at least to take a decent picture) because one can't compensate for it with global editing (unless, of course, one has topaz adjust). Advanced and Expert editing allow one to 'make' the light if it wasn't there to begin with. |
Sure it does, if I could have edited my background separate from my subject in a current challenge, I wouldn't be getting the comments about noise. My equipment produces noise on anything above ISO 400. I know it's hurting my score, but in basic there's nothing I can do about it. |
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10/20/2011 12:41:27 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by sjhuls:
I agree this argument doesn't hold any water for me either. Here is my side of the argument. Basic editing makes it so that you must have an expensive camera good equipment and all the accessories to take a good shot. If you don't then you must be very creative and it really limits what you can shoot. I had an idea for the baby toddler challenge but I knew I couldn't shoot it because my make shift studio wouldn't accommodate it.
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And this argument doesn't fly either.
Photography is about capturing light. Basic and Minimal editing require finding good light (at least to take a decent picture) because one can't compensate for it with global editing (unless, of course, one has topaz adjust). Advanced and Expert editing allow one to 'make' the light if it wasn't there to begin with. |
I think her point was that even with Basic and Minimal editing, you still can "make" the light, it "just" requires strobes, reflectors, power generator... Most of the ribbons I won with these rule sets involve such gear. It is kind of "unfair" to those not having access to similar equipment: permitting more editing is a way to decrease that gear advantage, since you can also model the light that way (even if it's much more limited than adjusting it during the photo shoot). |
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10/20/2011 01:22:52 PM · #58 |
Personally, I would like to see:
Minimal - what you see is what you get. No editing allowed.
Advanced - edits/filters/spot edits allowed
Expert - anything goes.
For me, the current Basic rule-set is a hybrid between minimal and advanced that I feel doesn't truly satisfy any particular niche. You can edit your image, but not completely. It should be an either or situation, either you can edit your image any way you want (advanced), or you can not edit it at all (minimalist). The in-between scenario doesn't accomplish anything in my opinion and leaves me feeling handcuffed when I see no value to it. Why partial editing -- what is the basis/rationale of this?
Anyway, back to work.... |
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10/20/2011 01:28:37 PM · #59 |
| Maybe "level playing field" is misrepresentative. I would only favour basic over minimal/minimalist because I shoot jpeg and this allows me to adjust colour and contrast, albeit globally. There will always be people with more experience/equipment than others, but when it comes to shooting the scene AT THE TIME and or SEEING the shot, it's anyone's game. My resistance to eliminating basic editing is no doubt a result of my own inexperience and reluctance to "advance" myself. As well, I have reached a stage in life where I like to reduce the variables. (Globally within my microcosm). |
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10/20/2011 01:35:38 PM · #60 |
I think the variety of editing rules is fine just as it is, people have different preferences with regards to how they like a photo to look and to the work involved in the post processing. I don't usually enter expert editing challenges, partly because i'm lazy and partly because i don't have Photoshop. Shooting for basic or for a minimal challenge has helped improve my photography much more than advanced or expert, being there at the right time, getting the composition right in the camera and using the available light correctly (i hardly ever use a flash) becomes far more important. I guess that is why we have the variety because everybody feels differently about this.
Message edited by author 2011-10-20 13:37:57. |
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10/20/2011 01:38:40 PM · #61 |
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10/20/2011 01:44:04 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Down with the Basic!! More Expert!! |
+1 :) |
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10/20/2011 01:54:39 PM · #63 |
Its important to correctly characterize fairness arguments and not go overboard.
In sports, its not fair to have a heavyweight fight a lightweight. Its also not fair to men's basketball teams against women's, and the final analogy, its not fair to race all different types of cars on a track- hence "stock car" racing.
SO, one way to level the field, although somewhat asinine and costly would be to sell a camera, a DPC camera advance point and shoot, to who ever could afford it, with a free membership for the year. 2x per month there is a challenge involving this camera, you have to take the shot and directly upload it to the site, where it is "normalized" for size by the site council. Then it would be fair.
Until then, leave it like it is and keep so called "fairness" arguments out of it, its art, self juried, not sports. |
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10/20/2011 01:59:34 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Popcorn is ready! |
I got one of those 44oz "bladder busters" from the concession stand...pass the corn. |
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10/20/2011 02:13:00 PM · #65 |
| yo, blindjustice. not talking so much about what is fair anymore, but about what I want and why it might be a good thing. (Correctly characterize fairness arguments?) |
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10/20/2011 02:25:24 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Originally posted by MargaretN:
Down with the Basic!! More Expert!! |
+1 :) |
You can't +1 yourself! :) |
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10/20/2011 02:46:48 PM · #67 |
Why do the rule sets matter?! Masterful photographers know how to adjust their options and present an image accordingly.
Wishful thinking on my part since I struggle in every rule set, but I'm sure I've met one or two mercurial souls out there who can do it all and well beyond DPC.
Maybe the goal shouldn't be to change the rules but rather to expand the skill set.
Just my two cents
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10/20/2011 03:01:49 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Popcorn is ready! |
I got one of those 44oz "bladder busters" from the concession stand...pass the corn. |
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10/20/2011 03:03:40 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by tnun:
yo, blindjustice. not talking so much about what is fair anymore, but about what I want and why it might be a good thing. (Correctly characterize fairness arguments?) |
I wasn't trying to call you out, just say that everyone pulls the "Fairness" card for their own purposes, its not fair.... thats not fair... etc. If its all about what we want... well thats a different thing. |
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10/20/2011 03:29:45 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by hihosilver:
Why do the rule sets matter?! Masterful photographers know how to adjust their options and present an image accordingly.
Wishful thinking on my part since I struggle in every rule set, but I'm sure I've met one or two mercurial souls out there who can do it all and well beyond DPC.
Maybe the goal shouldn't be to change the rules but rather to expand the skill set.
Just my two cents |
+1M Kind of what I wanted to say, but didn't accomplish! :P |
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10/20/2011 03:46:54 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by gcoulson:
For me, the current Basic rule-set is a hybrid between minimal and advanced that I feel doesn't truly satisfy any particular niche. You can edit your image, but not completely. It should be an either or situation, either you can edit your image any way you want (advanced), or you can not edit it at all (minimalist). The in-between scenario doesn't accomplish anything in my opinion and leaves me feeling handcuffed when I see no value to it. Why partial editing -- what is the basis/rationale of this?
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+1
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10/20/2011 03:50:04 PM · #72 |
| We've got four of editing rules with differing relaxation of rules that I believe work well. I don't see why any change is required. Yes, it sucks not being to spot edit but then it wouldn't be called a challenge would it ;P |
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10/20/2011 04:47:15 PM · #73 |
My only problem with basic is I seem to spend more time trying to figure out just what is and isn't legal than I do actually editing my picture. For example I just read in a previous thread that lens correction in lightroom is illegal in basic, which I never would of thought it would be. But after it being brought up I imagine it's due to distorting your image or being able to remove vignette.
Being that there are so many ways to achieve the same result I feel basic handicaps the beginner more than advanced does. For example. If I have a picture of a red fence against a blue sky, using the magic wand to select the fence and changing it to yellow would be illegal, as would using the select>color range tool to do the same. But you can achieve the same result by using hue/sat on the red channel which is far more advanced then the magic wand a beginner would use.
Edit, there's also replace color which looks to be legal in basic which would achieve the same result and it might be possible to do with selective color but that would be beyond what I'm capable of
Message edited by author 2011-10-20 16:51:38. |
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10/20/2011 04:54:10 PM · #74 |
| I'm now looking for the official get rid of the Official Get rid of basic editing petition thread petition thread... |
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10/20/2011 06:52:27 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by pointandshoot:
keep basic. eliminate filters in basic. |
And Sharpen happens to be the one and only filter I use often. Gee thanks. |
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