| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/19/2022 12:02:18 PM · #351 |
Dragging this one out to vent my spleen......
So, these Nationalist Christians (Can we call 'em Nat Cs???) have now redefined Christianity in such a way that virtually all of the good and decent aspects of Christ's teachings don't mean shit.
I have always had and followed my own faith & beliefs as part of a personal journey as it would never occur to me to tell someone how to live or what to believe.
What these Nat Cs have done, and the way that they are literally trying to turn the USA into a controlling Christian nation despite the fact that one of the original premises of the founding fathers was freedom *FROM* religion, is an absolute disgrace and IMNSHO makes them look like any other dangerous wacko religious extremists.
It's sobering and scary all at once.
|
|
|
|
09/19/2022 12:31:24 PM · #352 |
Not so much freedom *from* as freedom *of*, FWIW. The former implies "no religion should exist" while the other proposes that one should be free to choose one's religion or, by extension, to opt to be irreligious. It's an important distinction.
That said, it's correct that Jefferson and most other Founding Fathers envisioned the United States as a place where all religions would be tolerated equally, and in fact Jefferson EXPLICITLY included Muslims in this category.
Originally posted by Library of Congress Sources:
In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."
...
The Founders of this nation explicitly included Islam in their vision of the future of the republic. Freedom of religion, as they conceived it, encompassed it. Adherents of the faith were, with some exceptions, regarded as men and women who would make law-abiding, productive citizens. Far from fearing Islam, the Founders would have incorporated it into the fabric of American life. |
What's happening with this Christian Nationalist attempt to hijack the country and legislate so-called "Christian Values" is ludicrous and reprehensible, and the sheer hypocrisy of it is stunning. In so many ways these people have hijacked Christianity itself. What they profess is, to me, total corruption of the Christian ideal. And that's not even mentioning that our constitution promises that this will never happen.
Message edited by author 2022-09-19 12:33:39. |
|
|
|
09/19/2022 01:01:33 PM · #353 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
So, these Nationalist Christians (Can we call 'em Nat Cs???) ... |
Get someone to post this meme on Twitter and it'll be all over the 'net ... ;-)
Like so many autocratic groups, those who were formerly "conservatives" or "Republicans" are now using the venerable rhetorical trick of blaming the opposition for what they themselves are doing. I'm planning on making a "What they Say vs. What they Do" chart....
In the meantime, I'm encouraging my kid to move out of the Caliphate of Texas -- Christian Sharia is no better than any other kind ... :-( |
|
|
|
09/22/2022 12:15:09 PM · #354 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Not so much freedom *from* as freedom *of*, FWIW. The former implies "no religion should exist" while the other proposes that one should be free to choose one's religion or, by extension, to opt to be irreligious. It's an important distinction. |
I used the phrasing neither carelessly nor thoughtlessly. If you don't know that many of our earliest settlers sought freedom *FROM* religion, you don't know our early history that well. Though there was carryover from the Church of England, its growth was not as England would have had it be. Despite initial efforts to establish the Church of England and various denominations in Christianity here, the efforts of greater, more intelligent men prevented the infiltration of government.
From the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS FOUNDATION
Bill of Rights in Action
FALL 2010 (Volume 26, No. 1)
Tyranny: "The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom: The Road to the First Amendment
Many colonists came to America to escape religious persecution. But colonies soon adopted laws that limited religious freedom and forced to people to pay taxes to support churches they did not believe in. Dissenters started protesting to abolish those laws. An important change came in 1786 when Virginia passed the Statute for Religious Freedom. Drafted by Thomas Jefferson, the new law served as a model for the First Amendment. It established a clear separation of church and state and was one of Jefferson̢۪s proudest accomplishments."
Also: "The Civil Rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, nor on any pretext infringed."
I can also list a stream of various quotes from our statesmen of the era such as Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Paine, Washington all casting aspersions on the stranglehold that Christianity had on their history and the distinct need to escape it by separating any connection between church and state, hence, freedom *FROM* religion.
As someone who can elucidate that the hate, death, and misery of religion has so far and away eclipsed all the other causes of human suffering and death put together, it's a distinction I make because IMNSHO, religion is an evil, man made construct designed solely for the control and oppression of other humans by various forms of threats, oppression, and in some rare cases, rewards.
I remember a while back in one of these threads here on DPC where someone genuinely asked how one was supposed to have a moral compass without religion.
Just f*cking wow.......
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
That said, it's correct that Jefferson and most other Founding Fathers envisioned the United States as a place where all religions would be tolerated equally, and in fact Jefferson EXPLICITLY included Muslims in this category. |
It's sort of funny how sometimes this unevolved group of patriarchal, colonialist, misogynistic, racist jerks had moments of true clarity. Too bad they didn't practice it more in their own lives.
Originally posted by Library of Congress Sources:
In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."
...
The Founders of this nation explicitly included Islam in their vision of the future of the republic. Freedom of religion, as they conceived it, encompassed it. Adherents of the faith were, with some exceptions, regarded as men and women who would make law-abiding, productive citizens. Far from fearing Islam, the Founders would have incorporated it into the fabric of American life. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
What's happening with this Christian Nationalist attempt to hijack the country and legislate so-called "Christian Values" is ludicrous and reprehensible, and the sheer hypocrisy of it is stunning. In so many ways these people have hijacked Christianity itself. What they profess is, to me, total corruption of the Christian ideal. And that's not even mentioning that our constitution promises that this will never happen. |
And it's not just the Nat Cs. Their version of it has become kind of a mantra for the general support of the authoritarianism and elitism that's running rampant amongst the people most responsible for representing us, the common man. That's the part I don't get.
I live in Pennsylvania, one of the battleground states. There's this unbelievably scary guy who has a sickening level of support who has one of his planks as "Returning Pennsylvania to God.". This is a guy who openly chartered buses to take people to D.C. on January 6th and was there himself.
And people support this f*cking wacko? He wants to cut our already strained educational system by over 30%. He is a full supporter of not accepting the election if he loses, and is of course, another of tRump's minions.
We also have a guy running for Senate who has no connection to this state whatsoever. He's a celebrity quack who has twelve homes scattered around the globe who's been defrocked and had his credentials yanked.
This is the pool from which we're supposed to pick our leaders and representatives???
The "Live out your days in Europe" programs are looking better and better. I could see myself living in an old stone house eating olives, feta, and a baguette whilst sipping wine and watching the grass grow.....
|
|
|
|
09/22/2022 12:19:16 PM · #355 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'm planning on making a "What they Say vs. What they Do" chart.... |
I would most like to see that!
Originally posted by GeneralE:
In the meantime, I'm encouraging my kid to move out of the Caliphate of Texas -- Christian Sharia is no better than any other kind ... :-( |
Yah, really! That state is severely f*cked up. Abbott's a special kind of scumbag. Them and Florida.
I laughed my ass off at the outcome of the immigrant outsourcing.
Massachusetts made DeSantis look exactly like the heartless, racist asshole that he is.
Message edited by author 2022-09-22 12:38:47.
|
|
|
|
09/22/2022 01:10:49 PM · #356 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I laughed my ass off at the outcome of the immigrant outsourcing.
Massachusetts made DeSantis look exactly like the heartless, racist asshole that he is. |
I hadn't heard about "Reverse Freedom Rides" until last night. It does seem to really echo, if not completely copy something else that was disguesting. I was listening to an old podcast about it from a couple of years ago.
Reverse Freedom Rides |
|
|
|
09/22/2022 01:42:02 PM · #357 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Yah, really! That state is severely f*cked up. Abbott's a special kind of scumbag. Them and Florida. |
Unfortunately,. I live in Texas and it seems we are in a stupid contest with Florida. Since they obviously coordinated on this latest cruel stunt, I am not sure who is winning this week.
I know many great people who are religious (one friend is a pastor, now living in California) and they try to follow what they see as the teachings of Jesus. They see eye to eye on most things with this atheist. Modern evangelicals are ruining their good name, however.
Donating $50 every paycheck to Beto and occasionally to Collier for the Lt Gov race. I can't believe all these midterm races are polling so close, so maybe I am wrong about what is moral. But every time I apply critical thinking to the issues, I cannot come up with any right wing perspective.
Message edited by author 2022-09-22 13:43:34. |
|
|
|
09/22/2022 02:10:50 PM · #358 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
maybe I am wrong about what is moral. But every time I apply critical thinking to the issues, I cannot come up with any right wing perspective. |
+1 |
|
|
|
09/22/2022 03:29:41 PM · #359 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
maybe I am wrong about what is moral. But every time I apply critical thinking to the issues, I cannot come up with any right wing perspective. |
Yeah.... I have some severe problems with that.
I know a couple people who I genuinely think are decent people who are Repugnican. I try not to go too deep with them, but even with circling around the edges, their suspension of disbelief is *SO* strong that I simply cannot stomach it and have to stop discussing it.
|
|
|
|
09/22/2022 04:17:58 PM · #360 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
maybe I am wrong about what is moral. But every time I apply critical thinking to the issues, I cannot come up with any right wing perspective. |
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will finally know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix |
|
|
|
09/22/2022 05:38:18 PM · #361 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will finally know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix |
YES .. !!!! ..
|
|
|
|
09/22/2022 06:13:38 PM · #362 |
Wow... wish I'd never stumbled on THIS thread. Seeing the views expressed by people who I admire as great photographers makes me very very sad indeed. Never meet (or learn more about) your heroes, lol.
Very quickly fleeing this conversation and going to pretend it doesn't exist. Or perhaps it's opposite day every day here. |
|
|
|
09/22/2022 06:58:57 PM · #363 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Wow... wish I'd never stumbled on THIS thread. Seeing the views expressed by people who I admire as great photographers makes me very very sad indeed. |
Interesting. Perhaps rather than go with the veiled insult, and this *IS* rant, you could elaborate as to why, and how you could possibly disagree with any kind of reasonable supporting discourse.
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Never meet (or learn more about) your heroes, lol. |
I'm sure I'm not one to whom you're referring, but I'm fairly sure nobody here is looking to be idolized.
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Very quickly fleeing this conversation and going to pretend it doesn't exist. |
Interesting way to deal with it. Take a shot, then leave. Sounds exactly like the kind of thing we see all the time from across the aisle.
I know I'm fully able to support my position with facts, common sense, and decency.
I won't necessarily turn the other cheek if you strike me, though.
Figuratively speaking, considering the venue, but we've always in the past been able to express opposing views.
It seems to be harder, very very much harder. And despite who you may want to blame, this has definitely been since the 2016 election ramped up.
And the problems have not diminished and neither has the catalyst.
|
|
|
|
09/23/2022 08:06:29 AM · #364 |
I'm starting to wonder if most religious Christians have actually read the bible. It's batshit crazy.
David wants to bang King Saul's daughter. Saul isn't having it but gives him an out. David needs to bring him 100 Philistine foreskins for the privilege. David is really desperate to smash his daughter, so he one up's Saul and brings him back 200 Philistine foreskins.
Or the story of Lot where a father has to bang his two daughters to repopulate the area.
Or .......
Yes, that's really in the book that these religious zealots believe.
Originally posted by yo_spiff:
maybe I am wrong about what is moral. But every time I apply critical thinking to the issues, I cannot come up with any right wing perspective. |
Unfortunately that's a feature, not a bug.
|
|
|
|
09/23/2022 01:56:15 PM · #365 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I'm starting to wonder if most religious Christians have actually read the bible. It's batshit crazy. |
I'm still upset that Noah managed to retain all those wild critters in Australia that kill you but got a pair of gay unicorns so we don't have them any more.
Originally posted by yo_spiff:
maybe I am wrong about what is moral. But every time I apply critical thinking to the issues, I cannot come up with any right wing perspective. |
Originally posted by Venser:
Unfortunately that's a feature, not a bug. |
True that......
|
|
|
|
09/23/2022 02:30:40 PM · #366 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Venser:
I'm starting to wonder if most religious Christians have actually read the bible. It's batshit crazy. |
I'm still upset that Noah managed to retain all those wild critters in Australia that kill you but got a pair of gay unicorns so we don't have them any more... |
I still want to know what he fed the T rexes -- I don't think the unicorns would have held them for forty days ... |
|
|
|
09/24/2022 09:09:32 AM · #367 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Figuratively speaking, considering the venue, but we've always in the past been able to express opposing views.
It seems to be harder, very very much harder. And despite who you may want to blame, this has definitely been since the 2016 election ramped up.
And the problems have not diminished and neither has the catalyst. |
You will note how much of an opinion I bother to express publicly these days.... The world is divided between those who want to be able to critically analyze and justify their positions and those who feel they have all the justification they need, without further input being welcome. |
|
|
|
09/24/2022 12:29:17 PM · #368 |
| My dad used to describe the conservatives' mantra as "My mind's made up -- don't confuse me with the facts." |
|
|
|
09/24/2022 01:25:22 PM · #369 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
My dad used to describe the conservatives' mantra as "My mind's made up -- don't confuse me with the facts." |
And that wasn't helped much by the public wack-ola who coined the term "Alternative Facts".
Only in America.....8>(
|
|
|
|
09/24/2022 01:27:27 PM · #370 |
Originally posted by Cory:
You will note how much of an opinion I bother to express publicly these days.... The world is divided between those who want to be able to critically analyze and justify their positions and those who feel they have all the justification they need, without further input being welcome. |
If I haven't learned anything else in life, I have found that the deeper I delve into virtually any subject, I not only find an answer to a question about it that I had, but almost without fail, a number of new questions I hadn't enough info about to want answers.
Message edited by author 2022-09-24 13:28:02.
|
|
|
|
04/24/2025 11:16:09 AM · #371 |
While poking around Rant I discovered this thread. To be honest I haven't managed to read through of all of it so maybe this was already quoted:
“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”
Douglas Adams was an atheist as can be guessed from this quotation ;) |
|
