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05/07/2004 11:23:34 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by autool:
I've got 33 done so far in the rust challenge. I decided that if you other guys are trying it, the least I could do was my share.
Thanks for the encouragement on this format.
Happy clicking!
Dick |
NP Dick. I PMed you BTW concerning this. :)
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05/07/2004 12:18:30 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by orussell:
NP Dick. I PMed you BTW concerning this. :) |
Back at you. |
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05/07/2004 12:47:48 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by autool:
Originally posted by orussell:
NP Dick. I PMed you BTW concerning this. :) |
Back at you. |
Right back at you Dick. And thanks for the comment/multi tierred vote BTW. That's two challenges in a row you got me. Excellent stuff!!
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05/07/2004 12:51:50 PM · #79 |
I received my comment from you autool. These types of comments used to be frequent and I haven't seen them around lately. Unfortunately, I don't find them very helpful. Say you give me a score of 2 (which you didn't, but just as an example) for Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing . So which is it? It doesn't tell me what's wrong with it at all. I think that this is a great way of commenting if people want to know their score, but it doesn't really help me at all to fix the shot or to know what the heck was wrong with it.
You gave me a 4 for meeting the challenge for rust, which pretty much ruined my score from you, but WHY do you feel it didn't meet the challenge well. There's plenty of rust. So really your comment didn't help me at all with my image. But I definately know your score. Even a simple "too dark" or "needs more dof" would be perfect. That's just my opinion.
I do think it's great that you're taking the time to comment though, and appreciate that time.
Multiple check boxes with an average could be ok, but I wouldn't wat to vote that way. It we be less personal for me, and I'd feel like a robot voting on images. I personally LIKE looking at the image and adding my own individual words on an image. Words from ME relating directly to that image. It makes the people know that I took the time and looked at THAT image. I don't want my final score of an image calculated by a computer. I look at a photo, and think...that's a 6 or that's a 2. And I'll tell you why. It's not an average of everything. Some things weigh more heavily for me that others.
This may work for some people though, just not for me. |
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05/07/2004 01:02:21 PM · #80 |
hbunch7187,
You are an exception to the rule when it comes to participation and well though out comments. I myself would rather see those than any other. Some of us just are not as articulate as you are, and at least I, envy you.
My little voting format is very cumbersome to use, but if something similar was incorporated into the site, then I might have time to add comments to those that I feel could use further explanation.
Thanks for letting me know that I scored yours; I will make it a point to make further comments after the challenge.
Dick
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05/07/2004 01:03:49 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
I received my comment from you autool. These types of comments used to be frequent and I haven't seen them around lately. Unfortunately, I don't find them very helpful. Say you give me a score of 2 (which you didn't, but just as an example) for Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing . So which is it? It doesn't tell me what's wrong with it at all. I think that this is a great way of commenting if people want to know their score, but it doesn't really help me at all to fix the shot or to know what the heck was wrong with it.
You gave me a 4 for meeting the challenge for rust, which pretty much ruined my score from you, but WHY do you feel it didn't meet the challenge well. There's plenty of rust. So really your comment didn't help me at all with my image. But I definately know your score. Even a simple "too dark" or "needs more dof" would be perfect. That's just my opinion.
I do think it's great that you're taking the time to comment though, and appreciate that time.
Multiple check boxes with an average could be ok, but I wouldn't wat to vote that way. It we be less personal for me, and I'd feel like a robot voting on images. I personally LIKE looking at the image and adding my own individual words on an image. Words from ME relating directly to that image. It makes the people know that I took the time and looked at THAT image. I don't want my final score of an image calculated by a computer. I look at a photo, and think...that's a 6 or that's a 2. And I'll tell you why. It's not an average of everything. Some things weigh more heavily for me that others.
This may work for some people though, just not for me. |
Heather,
In case you haven't read all the thread, EddyG did a couple of mock-ups for the voting pages. This one gives the voter the option to comment on each aspect of scoring. Thought I'd save you the trouble of going back through the entire thread. :)
Cheers,
Owen
Message edited by author 2004-05-07 13:04:23.
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05/07/2004 01:12:51 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by orussell:
In case you haven't read all the thread, EddyG did a couple of mock-ups for the voting pages. This one gives the voter the option to comment on each aspect of scoring. Thought I'd save you the trouble of going back through the entire thread. :)
Cheers,
Owen |
I saw that. Thank you. I just don't think it would work for me, in the way that I don't know if I could assign an exact number for each aspect. My votes are just how I feel about an image. Like I said, not really an average of all things, but rather the image as a whole. If that makes sense. I do prefer the comment with scoring better than the simple "Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 7". I just don't think it would work for everyone. Especially me.
EDIT: No offense meant to anyone, as it's a good idea and some people will like it just fine, it's just not for me I don't think.
Message edited by author 2004-05-07 13:13:56. |
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05/07/2004 01:14:30 PM · #83 |
I like the idea of checkboxes to convey common criticism and numbered evaluation check box for various components of a grading rubric. I think the overall score should perhaps still be a matter of overall impact to the human. Thus, a computed score is not bad, it just needs to be possible to amend it based on overall impact. I am most interested in whether what I am doing is going to have others motivated to buy pictures from me or not. If people give me feedback on a component by component basis, this is very, very helpful.
I think based on the feedback I have gotten on my first submission, my second is remarkably improved over the first. Thank you all, for both voting and taking time to make comments. |
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05/07/2004 01:20:34 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Originally posted by orussell:
In case you haven't read all the thread, EddyG did a couple of mock-ups for the voting pages. This one gives the voter the option to comment on each aspect of scoring. Thought I'd save you the trouble of going back through the entire thread. :)
Cheers,
Owen |
I saw that. Thank you. I just don't think it would work for me, in the way that I don't know if I could assign an exact number for each aspect. My votes are just how I feel about an image. Like I said, not really an average of all things, but rather the image as a whole. If that makes sense. I do prefer the comment with scoring better than the simple "Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 7". I just don't think it would work for everyone. Especially me. |
I agree it's not for everyone and if ever implemented should be entirely optional. Also I believe certain aspects of voting within this method should have voter assignable weighting; not every voter feels the same merit should be given to all the voting elements. BTW Heather, thanks for being one of the few SC members to voice an opinion on this issue. :)
Regards,
Owen
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05/07/2004 01:29:48 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by orussell:
BTW Heather, thanks for being one of the few SC members to voice an opinion on this issue. :)
Regards,
Owen |
No problem, I think I'm one of the few that are actually home this time of day. Stupid second shift job. lol I wonder if it would get more attention in the "web site suggestions thread"? Or if the title was proposed voting format? Honestly, There have been so many "how I vote" threads, that this one might just get looked over as "yet another repeat thread". I do think it should be in the web site suggestions section, so I'll try to move it there.
EDIT-I'm not going to move it unless the original author wants it moved. I was gonna, but then though that if he wanted it there, he would have put it there. So it will stay unless I hear otherwise.
Message edited by author 2004-05-07 13:35:10. |
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05/07/2004 01:40:14 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
No problem, I think I'm one of the few that are actually home this time of day. Stupid second shift job. lol I wonder if it would get more attention in the "web site suggestions thread"? Or if the title was proposed voting format? Honestly, There have been so many "how I vote" threads, that this one might just get looked over as "yet another repeat thread". I do think it should be in the web site suggestions section, so I'll try to move it there.
EDIT-I'm not going to move it unless the original author wants it moved. I was gonna, but then though that if he wanted it there, he would have put it there. So it will stay unless I hear otherwise. |
No problem, move it. I only put it in general discussion so people wouldn't think I was trying to stir @#$%.
Thanks,
Dick |
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05/07/2004 01:46:19 PM · #87 |
Heather:
I'm up way too late, and it is no secret that I am a big supporter of this idea. But, I looked up your profile and found:
Comments:
Made: 2068
Frankly, with 2K comments done, I'll support anything you personally want to do. All I ssk is two things:
1) Recognize that you are the exception that everyone wants to have comment on their image. Most people have no wehere nearly the credentials that you do (aside from number of comments, I read a page of the comments that you have made, and concluded that there is no way check boxes will give anyone anywhere nearly the help you are.)
2) Hit my images when you can? If you combine the feedback you give with the feedback from Dick's system from the frequent voters/infrequent comments, there is some very very powerful feedback available.
Best, and thanks for reading this thread, and injecting a well thought out opinion.
Bill M.
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05/07/2004 01:46:31 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Originally posted by orussell:
BTW Heather, thanks for being one of the few SC members to voice an opinion on this issue. :)
Regards,
Owen |
No problem, I think I'm one of the few that are actually home this time of day. Stupid second shift job. lol I wonder if it would get more attention in the "web site suggestions thread"? Or if the title was proposed voting format? Honestly, There have been so many "how I vote" threads, that this one might just get looked over as "yet another repeat thread". I do think it should be in the web site suggestions section, so I'll try to move it there.
EDIT-I'm not going to move it unless the original author wants it moved. I was gonna, but then though that if he wanted it there, he would have put it there. So it will stay unless I hear otherwise. |
I think it would be great to change the thread title to "Proposed Voting Format". Could you do that? |
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05/07/2004 01:49:59 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I think it would be great to change the thread title to "Proposed Voting Format". Could you do that? |
I could do that if autool says I can do that. lol. |
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05/07/2004 01:55:01 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by bill_hk2002:
Heather:
I'm up way too late, and it is no secret that I am a big supporter of this idea. But, I looked up your profile and found:
Comments:
Made: 2068
Frankly, with 2K comments done, I'll support anything you personally want to do. All I ssk is two things:
1) Recognize that you are the exception that everyone wants to have comment on their image. Most people have no wehere nearly the credentials that you do (aside from number of comments, I read a page of the comments that you have made, and concluded that there is no way check boxes will give anyone anywhere nearly the help you are.)
2) Hit my images when you can? If you combine the feedback you give with the feedback from Dick's system from the frequent voters/infrequent comments, there is some very very powerful feedback available.
Best, and thanks for reading this thread, and injecting a well thought out opinion.
Bill M. |
Thanks for the compliments. I'll try to hit your shots when I get back from work. Gotta go do that responsibility thing at the pet store again. blah.
PS Read a few pages of my crits when I first started here, I definately had WAY too much time on my hands. LOL. I'd write paragraphs. |
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05/07/2004 02:00:00 PM · #91 |
Just received one of Dick's formated voting notes and found it helpful -- certainly better than no comment :)
I'm trying it out so thanks for the idea and have completed about 10 so far. What I like is that it not only provide more info to folks quickly, it has me more consistantly think about each shot. I don't feel compelled (as yet) of making the math work so apologies to those that note the final number isn't arithmatically an average ;)
I have added some comment to make it a bit more personal -- |
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05/07/2004 02:43:10 PM · #92 |
| I just got my first as well, containing scores and text. I found it much more helpful than the usual comment! |
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05/07/2004 03:16:12 PM · #93 |
Just thought I'd add my voice to those suggesting it should not even be an option: I don't like the option it gives people to further enumerate my photos, rather than evaluate them.
Ed
PS. I'd be absolutely in favour of a scale that went: 1 2 3 4 5 5.5 6 7 8 9 10
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05/07/2004 03:28:27 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by e301:
Just thought I'd add my voice to those suggesting it should not even be an option: I don't like the option it gives people to further enumerate my photos, rather than evaluate them.
Ed
PS. I'd be absolutely in favour of a scale that went: 1 2 3 4 5 5.5 6 7 8 9 10 |
Ed,
I have re-evaluated my no options opinion. If something were set up similar to the last sample it leaves all options open, and I am very much in favor of that.
In fact there has been mentioned by some observers that this format is computerized! I don’t see that to be the case at all, it still needs the voters’ input and final submission. The biggest advantage is that it makes the whole process more user friendly. :<)
Dick
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05/08/2004 01:42:08 AM · #95 |
I have received a comment in this format from both autool and orussell on my Rusted entry. After having received both of them, I have to honestly say that they are not nearly as using half of the space to tell me what you liked or did not like about the photo.
Don't get me wrong, I like the break-down of the vote as it allows me to see what you think of each aspect of the photo; but these are just statistics, and statistics are only useful after they have been compiled. If, at the end of the voting, the component votes from several individuals were compiled it would say something, but standing alone is says very little. And just in case I am still giving the wrong impression, I would love to see a break-down of the averaged component scores at the end of each challenge. But I just do not think each one needs to be displayed as a comment. A simple 'I like the texture of the rust.' is far more informative as a single comment -- sorry.
While I am at it, I like the suggestion to have checkboxes for the more common issues, but once again, they would be of most use only as compiled statistics. These I do not feel would take away from the comments that are being received, but would supplement them nicely.
Once again, for clarity, it was not my intention to come off as being against the idea -- I just do not see its value in the comment section. Of course, without the sites backing on this it has no where else to be. :(
David
/edit: to complete a thought I typed past without voicing.
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 01:44:01. |
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05/08/2004 09:04:57 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
I have received a comment in this format from both autool and orussell on my Rusted entry. After having received both of them, I have to honestly say that they are not nearly as using half of the space to tell me what you liked or did not like about the photo.
Don't get me wrong, I like the break-down of the vote as it allows me to see what you think of each aspect of the photo; but these are just statistics, and statistics are only useful after they have been compiled. If, at the end of the voting, the component votes from several individuals were compiled it would say something, but standing alone is says very little. And just in case I am still giving the wrong impression, I would love to see a break-down of the averaged component scores at the end of each challenge. But I just do not think each one needs to be displayed as a comment. A simple 'I like the texture of the rust.' is far more informative as a single comment -- sorry.
While I am at it, I like the suggestion to have checkboxes for the more common issues, but once again, they would be of most use only as compiled statistics. These I do not feel would take away from the comments that are being received, but would supplement them nicely.
Once again, for clarity, it was not my intention to come off as being against the idea -- I just do not see its value in the comment section. Of course, without the sites backing on this it has no where else to be. :(
David
/edit: to complete a thought I typed past without voicing. |
I do believe you are correct in saying that this would be a more useful tool if it were incorporated into the site in such a way as to provide statistical analysis at the end of the challenge. With input from persons like yourself we can come up with something that benefits all users. Thanks.
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05/08/2004 09:08:20 AM · #97 |
Comments
I just received a comment in the “Rusted” challenge, using this format from orussell. Thanks Owen. He rated my picture as follows.
Composition 6
Technical 5
Appeal 6
Fits challenge 7
With an average of 6
This information tells me that in his opinion it is a pretty average kind of picture, or nothing to write home about. Even though the comments are kind of empty, at least I know that he considered each of these areas when he evaluated it. I must agree that I entered a rather poor shot in this challenge and nothing stands out as outstanding, to give it the WOW factor warranting anything higher.
This picture also has 16 other very helpful comments that show that they took the time to look at it and make constructive criticism. They are commended!
At this time, that leaves 189 votes that gave me no feedback at all. I feel that a format similar to this suggested format would give me some additional information on what they thought also.
Dick
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05/08/2004 09:54:52 AM · #98 |
I've been on sites in the past where this type of more comprehensive voting is used. Those sites no longer use that type of rating matrix. The simple reason is time. While this type of voting can be somewhat more helpful, it is more time consuming. Is it better to vote in depth on just 20% of the images and comment extensively? Of is it better to vote on more images with fewer comments? This is really an apples and oranges issue.
The bottom line is that most people seem to want real, thoughtful comments. They don't want a series of numbers. They don't want a cut and paste "nice image". They want to know that you looked at the image and saw something worthy of comment.
Try as you might, you can't force people to comment. People vote on challenges in their spare time. Due to the number of participants, it's really difficult to comment on a large percentage of images. Not to mention there are just times where you can't think of something to say!
I'm going to pick on Owen for a minute- on autool's image you gave his composition a 6. Does that tell him anything? Well, it tells him you think it's better than average.
Now what if you told him- "you know I think if you tightened your crop, and then moved about 2 feet to the left you would have a stronger image." Which has more impact? Does it take you longer to vote on 5 categories than it does to write a sentence with a *specific* example of something that can be corrected?
For me, I'd rather have the specific example. And I honestly think that is really what people want.
Just my thought, your mileage might vary. :)
--Clara
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05/08/2004 10:02:58 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by blemt:
I've been on sites in the past where this type of more comprehensive voting is used. Those sites no longer use that type of rating matrix. The simple reason is time. While this type of voting can be somewhat more helpful, it is more time consuming. Is it better to vote in depth on just 20% of the images and comment extensively? Of is it better to vote on more images with fewer comments? This is really an apples and oranges issue.
The bottom line is that most people seem to want real, thoughtful comments. They don't want a series of numbers. They don't want a cut and paste "nice image". They want to know that you looked at the image and saw something worthy of comment.
Try as you might, you can't force people to comment. People vote on challenges in their spare time. Due to the number of participants, it's really difficult to comment on a large percentage of images. Not to mention there are just times where you can't think of something to say!
I'm going to pick on Owen for a minute- on autool's image you gave his composition a 6. Does that tell him anything? Well, it tells him you think it's better than average.
Now what if you told him- "you know I think if you tightened your crop, and then moved about 2 feet to the left you would have a stronger image." Which has more impact? Does it take you longer to vote on 5 categories than it does to write a sentence with a *specific* example of something that can be corrected?
For me, I'd rather have the specific example. And I honestly think that is really what people want.
Just my thought, your mileage might vary. :)
--Clara |
I have a good example why this type of voting does help:
My abstract has been plummeting from a good start all week, it was down to 5.2 at one point. I have 12 comments all positive, one constructive. Some of the comments said it was gallery worthy, their wall worthy, blue ribbon choice. Yet I now have a 5.49; probably 50th percentile. Not at all in tune with the glowing comments. So where is the feedback from those people who have been dragging my score down (I've seen lots of threes go by when I looked). What does that tell me? They don't like my photo? It's technically bad? It doesn't meet the challenge? I shouldn't have given it that title?
If there were these categories, or at least one that rated the picture, and one that said "meets the challenge", I could tell the difference when people were voting me down because they felt I didn't meet the challenge, or they didn't connect with the picture, or felt it was bad overall. I've never gotten a comment as detailed and constructive as your example.
In short, I think the multidimensional scaling, and cut and paste comments even, helps us to understand why we are getting that below average score from 150 people, which is only offset by the higher scores of the commenters.
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 10:07:21. |
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05/08/2004 10:03:11 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
You can check it out in action here. "Auto-comment Only" puts the scoring breakdown into the comment box, allowing you to add additional comments. "Auto-vote only" votes the computed score. Useful if you don't want to leave a detailed analysis of your breakdown, or if you added additional comments. Takes you to the next image. "Auto-comment & Vote" puts the scoring breakdown into the comment area, votes the computed score, and takes you to the next image.
My code isn't totally tested, but the concept appears sound... |
I love it man!!! It´s exactly what I'd like to see implemented!!! Thanks and three hurrays for you!!! |
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