Proposed voting method - DPChallenge Forums

Sony E 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS

05/05/2004 06:44:06 AM · #30

Originally posted by nshapiro:

Let's keep this from falling off the front page until we get multi-dimensional voting! How long can we "keep this up"!

It's like a forum filibuster!

I hear ya Neil!!

kaycee

Olympus C-750UZ

05/05/2004 06:52:57 AM · #31

Your example is great. The only issue I see with this (since you already built it so that using it is optional for the voter) is that if a large number of voters used this method, you could potentially get 200 comments with 800 different scores.

Actually, the way I understand it, that wouldn't happen - the final "score" is left up to the individual voter to put down. The four areas highlighted might not even equal the average for the final score - but it would just help (IMO) to see what a commenter really liked or disliked about the shot.

willem

Sony Alpha a6700

05/05/2004 07:00:23 AM · #32

Originally posted by bill_hk2002:

Just in case anyone doesn't know, the output of Dick's system looks something like:

Composition: Subject Placement, Cropping, Background 7
Technical: Focus, Exposure, Lighting, Processing 10
Appeal: Is it Interesting, Motivating, Etc.? 6
How well it meets the challenge: 10
Total Averaged Rating 8 Dick

FWIW: I find his comments very helpful.

Bill M.

Looks structured and useful, but .... does it really help you ? I don't think so.

I rather have comments from different people telling me in words why they like or dislike an image, what kind of impression it creates, what kind of emotion is triggers, what the factors are for them which contribute to the impact, how they think it can be improved, etc.

A figure 6 in appeal does not tell me anything. I would want to know why it is a 6.

Would you rather want to know "composition 7" or "If you crop away 10% of the left I think the image get simpler and stronger" ?

If many people leave these kind of comments I get a total impression which I can use.

Message edited by author 2004-05-05 07:35:35.

soccerdad

Fujifilm FinePix S2 Pro

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

05/05/2004 09:52:36 AM · #33

Willem:

I think you are correct that free flowing comments can be better. But, there are fewer of them than I would like, and some percentage of them are fun to read, but not particularly helpful photographically.

Your comments are generally very helpful, and are structured as in your post. The problem lies in that many are not, and the proposal here would significantly improve the feedback from those voters.

The other thing that tends to be different in your comments is that you are not afraid to try and help. So, in a weak effort, your comment will say that it is a weak effort and what to work on for next time. Most don't say what they think fearing unfriendly PMs.

Personally, I find your way of commenting much more helpful.

But, right now, I have 49 votes in Rust, and a single comment. My score isn't bad, but it isn't great either. Feedback as described in this proposal wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as a comment from you, but, it would be considerably better than what I have now.

Best
Bill M.

P.S. If you have nothing to do, my image could use a comment or two. It is......ahhhh, maybe after the challenge.

cghubbell

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

05/05/2004 10:08:31 AM · #34

As a newcomer to the site, I think that a suggested rating system via checkboxes would be a great way to help people baseline their standards. I've voted on three challenges so far, and can tell that I'm still forming my guidelines, which tells me that some level setting would be helpful.

My suggestion would include the checkboxes being an optional feature, on by default for new accounts, but could be switched off entirely. In addition, I'd like to see it generate the final rating somewhere other than the final vote or comments. That could serve as a baseline. From that baseline, the voter could apply their "subjective gotcha factor" to it.

Voting is a great way to learn to appreciate the details in an image, and since one of DPC's goals is to help build photographic skills, I think anything that shorterns the learning curve is good as long as it doesn't impact more experienced users.

05/05/2004 10:12:14 AM · #35

If something like Dick suggested were ever implemented, it would be optional to vote/comment using the multi-tiered system; conventional voting/commenting is the alternative. Take a look at the mock-up EddyG did. With this the voter decides which method to use. It's very intuative and caters to everyone. Great scripting Eddy. Great idea Dick.

05/05/2004 10:40:34 AM · #36

I agree that the most effective way to critique a picture is a laudatory statement that explains all of the details of imperfection and or strong qualities. Someone that is knowledgeable and fair would hopefully do this. However I donâ��t see that happening in the majority of comments that I receive, or for that matter give.

The sample voting page that Eddy so kindly made is suggested as an alternative to the need for the inexperienced, those on a tight schedule, people with slow Internet connections, etc., etc., to offer some degree of rating when they place a vote.

It is no more â��computerizedâ�� as I notice mentioned earlier than simply clicking a vote with the system that is in place now.

I appreciate that those of you that support this idea have stepped to the plate and let the rest of DPC know. :<)

Thanks, Dick

That means you too Orussell !!!

layback

Olympus C-5060WZ

05/05/2004 10:47:53 AM · #37

I think it would cool, it would help us photographers, but will everyone take the time to do it......

layback

Olympus C-5060WZ

05/05/2004 10:49:22 AM · #38

Originally posted by Kylie:

I like it, too; it would give some uniformity even within your own voting. I would need the ability to override the automated "average" of the points, though, if there was a compelling reason to vote a different score than that which can be mathematically computed. "Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts."

I agree Kylie....

05/05/2004 11:36:09 AM · #39

Originally posted by autool:

Dick,

Thanks. Now if we can get more SC members and the Admins. to endorse it.

Owen

05/05/2004 11:47:54 AM · #40

Originally posted by orussell:

Thanks. Now if we can get more SC members and the Admins. to endorse it.

Owen

Except for Eddy, they sure have been laying low on this one.

Dick

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

05/05/2004 11:51:18 AM · #41

Originally posted by autool:

Originally posted by orussell:

Thanks. Now if we can get more SC members and the Admins. to endorse it.

Owen

Except for Eddy, they sure have been laying low on this one.

Dick

I may use a macro like yours for the Rusted challenge. Maybe you could post yours as an example for those not too familiar with Excel.

rananculus

Olympus C-4040Z

05/05/2004 11:52:44 AM · #42

I've given this proposal a couple days thought and I won't be supporting it. Here is my thinking: What I perceive that everyone wants here is more thoughtful critiques. DPChallenge was not designed for critiques, it requests only comments. While a system of standardized voting would help the commenter to be more consistent, I don't see it doing much in encouraging people to write critiques. In fact, I think the extra time that would be needed to vote would actually deter a person from spending even more time to write something thoughtful.

I support a system where there is a reward for writing critiques. Other sites like photosig and worth 1000 have such systems in place. Even with a reward system, the forums at those sites read very much like the forums here. The common thread..."Why can't I get more people to look at my work?"

Until DPChallenge bites the bullet, and ties your right to enter a challenge to your history of writing thoughtful critiques, nothing will change. A system that only trains voters to be more consistent will do nothing to get people to write thoughtful critiques.

cghubbell

Nikon D300

05/05/2004 12:11:06 PM · #43

I don't think it would be a bad idea to tie the right to submit to a certain threshold of comments (vs. only votes). It would have to be reasonable though, as I'd never get out to take pictures if I had to write a detailed critique of all the entries in this latest challenge.

The nice thing in that approach is that it would really make you think about the shots you are reviewing, which in theory should help you improve your own. If the end result would be more feedback on my entries it would be worthwhile to me since my participation here is about learning photography more than about competition.

In the end, I think the target customer needs to identified as either "I want to learn" or "I want to compete". The outcome of that analysis would impact what approach was viable.

05/05/2004 12:15:06 PM · #44

Originally posted by orussell:

I may use a macro like yours for the Rusted challenge. Maybe you could post yours as an example for those not too familiar with Excel.

Owen,
Without the SC approval/endorsement, I think I will hold off on distributing it. I don't want to cause any undo stress.

Dick

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/05/2004 01:15:42 PM · #45

Originally posted by autool:

Originally posted by orussell:

I may use a macro like yours for the Rusted challenge. Maybe you could post yours as an example for those not too familiar with Excel.

Owen,
Without the SC approval/endorsement, I think I will hold off on distributing it. I don't want to cause any undo stress.

Dick

So true Dick.

the-O-ster

Nikon D70

05/05/2004 02:35:50 PM · #46

f-32 -

i see where you are coming from and i can agree with you, but a strong part of the challenge is about understanding what you did and how to control the shot in the future. in this respect i think that explicitly indicating the strengths and weaknesses of a shot are much more beneficial than a number with no comment (people do not often leave comments - THANK YOU to those who do).

eddyG:
GREAT WORK - my opinion on the layout is that you should have one "vote" button for the one method (detailed breakout) and one "vote" button for the other method (the gut impression). it would be an either/or (and the detailed breakout would be averaged into a "one-number" vote). i would also assume that each of the four categories would be weighted differently (ie - the "meets the challenge" should be weighted more heavily than the technical). my opinion on these would be something like:

Meets the challenge - this should be the heaviest weight, since its what the challenge is ABOUT. lets say 30%

Appeal - this is kind of an overall "gut" feeling, so we could rate this heavy as well. say 30% again

Composition - this would probably be reflected in the "appeal" category already so maybe this can get knocked down to something like 25%

Technical - this should pretty much be covered under the above groups, so maybe we can give only a 15% to it

the thing to keep in mind is that the user should be able to see all his stats, so that he can still have that level of detail as a guide.

so if a photo does not apply to the challenge, but is technically a great shot, it ends up being less favorable then an amazingly appropriate (but technically weak) shot. but the user can still say - "well i did all right technically, but people dont seem to think that my shot applies to the challenge" or "i got low marks in the the technical but my shot seemed to please"

-O.

Message edited by author 2004-05-05 14:38:44.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

05/05/2004 02:38:05 PM · #47

Based on some of the feedback in this thread, I have put together...

Optional Voting Method 2.0 Demo

Again, this is all still pure HTML/JavaScript, so injecting it via something like Proxomitron into the voting page would make this possible for anybody who wants to go that far.

Changes since the initial version:
1) added the ability to enter an (optional) comment for each criteria
2) cleaned it up visually by putting ranking numbers above buttons and making the description of the voting criteria a "tooltip" (hover your mouse over the word "Composition", for example, if you forget what that criteria is about.)
3) added a checkbox to include the individual criteria rankings in the comment or not. If this is not checked, the buttons that insert a comment are disabled unless you've actually typed at least 1 comment

I want to point out that this is purely a proof of concept; please do not message the admins or others SC's to try and persuade them to get this implemented "for real" on a site-wide basis. Commenting on it in this thread is fine, but begging D&L for it will probably get you nowhere fast... =]

Message edited by author 2004-05-05 15:11:12.

mijak

Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D

Sigma 18-50mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Minolta

05/05/2004 03:12:58 PM · #48

Having spent some thoughts on the matter, I wanted to share my them in no particular order and without making any particular strong statement.

a) The auto-comment feature is the #1 no-no if this should be endorsed. It would most likely reduce the number of "real" comments. The statistics would be possible to present in other ways anyway, similar to the average is presented today.

b) Seeing the commenting of a picture as a separate issue, then if a user could choose between giving scores the way it is done today, or with the proposed method (w/o the auto-comment!!), I do not really see why not. It would give me more detailed feedback than the regular votes, if the statistics where presented to me.

c) The proposed optional method will however probably reduce your chances of getting a "10"... and who would want that? ;-)

d) Regardless how I set my scores when voting, I will always set highest value on the high quality feedback comments from y'all!

e) Personally, I would like to see some official voting guidelines like the guidelines found at KINGs page

/M