Guns don't kill people - DPChallenge Forums

02/23/2012 12:01:22 PM · #126

Originally posted by jagar:

So except for the fact that I have to go through a long process to get a firearms license and even then it can only be for hunting or for a shooting range, what other rights have I not got that you do ?

we are allowed to use the weapons to defend our property.

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 12:01:48.

02/23/2012 12:04:09 PM · #127

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by jagar:

So except for the fact that I have to go through a long process to get a firearms license and even then it can only be for hunting or for a shooting range, what other rights have I not got that you do ?

we are allowed to use the weapons to defend our property.

So in your eyes this one law constitutes greatness?

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

02/23/2012 12:04:27 PM · #128

Originally posted by mike_311:

And it should continue to stay that way!

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

02/23/2012 12:06:51 PM · #129

John, you guys have way better coffee and dessert. :)

02/23/2012 12:08:06 PM · #130

Originally posted by jagar:

i dont think anyone ever said that.

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 12:08:40.

02/23/2012 12:14:19 PM · #131

Originally posted by dyridings:

Originally posted by jagar:
So in such a great country why is there so much crime? I'm not being cynical I'm just generally curious, one would think greatness would bring less crime.

Because of our rights. If they banned the "right to bear arms" and all our other constitutional rights... it wouldn't be such a great country.

Above it was said.

02/23/2012 12:15:49 PM · #132

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by jagar:

So except for the fact that I have to go through a long process to get a firearms license and even then it can only be for hunting or for a shooting range, what other rights have I not got that you do ?

we are allowed to use the weapons to defend our property.

So in your eyes this one law constitutes greatness?

i dont think anyone ever said that.

I know I didn't say that... I simply re-quoted other things that were written. I DO think that this is a great country... I love the US. What I don't love is that our rights are constantly being debated or restricted, or worse, taken away. I cherish the rights that we have, and they were put in place for a reason.

Funny that I'm chiming in on this discussion... my son just turned on American Dad on NetFlix and it just so happened to be about guns. Eerie coincidence?

Fujifilm XF 10-24mm f/4 R IOS

02/23/2012 12:16:36 PM · #133

Originally posted by jagar:

So in such a great country why is there so much crime? I'm not being cynical I'm just generally curious, one would think greatness would bring less crime.

Here you stated/implied that it was such a GREAT country. I simply reiterated that fact for you with your choice of words

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 12:17:28.

markwiley

Fujifilm X-Pro2

02/23/2012 12:18:20 PM · #134

Originally posted by mike_311:

using the argument that misusing a gun isn't a good reason to take away the right to own one. freedom of speech gets misused all the time, should we take that away too?

Guns are being misused a in manner that is killing or injuring tens of thousands of US citizens a year. My point is the right to bear arms is doing more harm than good.

I do not understand your argument regarding freedom of speech. What do you consider the misuse of the right of free speech? People are using it all of the time to express things that I completely and totally disagree with, but that is not misuse. However, if they use speech in a manner that needlessly puts others in danger (like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater) then this is a misuse and the right is indeed taken away.

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 12:18:41.

02/23/2012 12:22:32 PM · #135

Originally posted by mike_311:

early American settlers viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes:

deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
participating in law enforcement;
enabling the people to organize a militia system.

now whether or not you your anyone outside of the US feels that those rights are warranted isn't the point. its that we have these rights, among many others, that IS important, its these rights that makes our country is what it is. Its these rights that have allowed the American people of years past to prosper and make this country as great as it is in such a short time.

People with thoughts such as yours are what scares me the most. Oh a crazy person with a gun, let just take away all guns and it wont happen anymore. Wrong, criminals will still be criminals, they just wont use guns, they'll use something else. Too many people want to take away the rights afforded to us in the interest of "safety".

We as Americans need to hold dearly to our rights becuase they have been slowly eroding away, especially post 9/11.

I think greatness was also mentioned here hence my initial question.

02/23/2012 12:24:51 PM · #136

Originally posted by markwiley:

Originally posted by mike_311:
using the argument that misusing a gun isn't a good reason to take away the right to own one. freedom of speech gets misused all the time, should we take that away too?

Guns are being misused a in manner that is killing or injuring tens of thousands of US citizens a year. My point is the right to bear arms is doing more harm than good.

I do not understand your argument regarding freedom of speech. What do you consider the misuse of the right of free speech? People are using it all of the time to express things that I completely and totally disagree with, but that is not misuse. However, if they use speech in a manner that needlessly puts others in danger (like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater) then this is a misuse and the right is indeed taken away.

Just to throw this out there... you do realize that prescription drugs are a MAJOR problem in the United States. With regards to teenagers (and adults) most times it does more harm than good. Doctors write them out like they are going out of style, teens get their hands on them and get high or worse, kill themselves. And countless adults abuse them.

Does that mean that we should ban all prescription drugs? Of course not. It should be regulated, but not banned. Same with guns. They should be regulated, but not banned.

I am sure people will find a way to dissect this, so go ahead

02/23/2012 12:27:38 PM · #137

Originally posted by jagar:

So in your eyes this one law constitutes greatness?

you singled out this one particular right. it is a GREAT country for ALL the rights it affords.

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

02/23/2012 12:28:22 PM · #138

Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by mike_311:

early American settlers viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes:

deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
participating in law enforcement;
enabling the people to organize a militia system.

now whether or not you your anyone outside of the US feels that those rights are warranted isn't the point. its that we have these rights, among many others, that IS important, its these rights that makes our country is what it is. Its these rights that have allowed the American people of years past to prosper and make this country as great as it is in such a short time.

People with thoughts such as yours are what scares me the most. Oh a crazy person with a gun, let just take away all guns and it wont happen anymore. Wrong, criminals will still be criminals, they just wont use guns, they'll use something else. Too many people want to take away the rights afforded to us in the interest of "safety".

We as Americans need to hold dearly to our rights becuase they have been slowly eroding away, especially post 9/11.

I think greatness was also mentioned here hence my initial question.

So what am I missing here?

ubique

Olympus PEN-F

02/23/2012 12:28:53 PM · #139

Originally posted by gun nuts:

(various infantile ravings)

Originally posted by jagar:

(various sensible things)

John, you've got to stop baiting these poor, defenceless bastards. It's just too cruel, mate.

02/23/2012 12:33:33 PM · #140

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by jagar:

So in your eyes this one law constitutes greatness?

you singled out this one particular right. it is a GREAT country for ALL the rights it affords.

I actually agree that its a great country, but it definitely wont lose anything by abandoning that one right, saying it would is like saying Europe is not as great, when in fact we have fewer problems crime wise.

02/23/2012 12:34:27 PM · #141

Originally posted by dyridings:

Originally posted by markwiley:

Originally posted by mike_311:
using the argument that misusing a gun isn't a good reason to take away the right to own one. freedom of speech gets misused all the time, should we take that away too?

Guns are being misused a in manner that is killing or injuring tens of thousands of US citizens a year. My point is the right to bear arms is doing more harm than good.

I do not understand your argument regarding freedom of speech. What do you consider the misuse of the right of free speech? People are using it all of the time to express things that I completely and totally disagree with, but that is not misuse. However, if they use speech in a manner that needlessly puts others in danger (like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater) then this is a misuse and the right is indeed taken away.

Just to throw this out there... you do realize that prescription drugs are a MAJOR problem in the United States. With regards to teenagers (and adults) most times it does more harm than good. Doctors write them out like they are going out of style, teens get their hands on them and get high or worse, kill themselves. And countless adults abuse them.

Does that mean that we should ban all prescription drugs? Of course not. It should be regulated, but not banned. Same with guns. They should be regulated, but not banned.

I am sure people will find a way to dissect this, so go ahead

I agree they should be regulated, the gun lobby's wouldn't be happy about that though and that would mean less cash for the candidates, long live democracy.

02/23/2012 12:37:47 PM · #142

Originally posted by jagar:

Its the whole taking away rights thing that bothers me.

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 12:38:00.

02/23/2012 12:38:02 PM · #143

Originally posted by jagar:

I agree they should be regulated, the gun lobby's wouldn't be happy about that though and that would mean less cash for the candidates, long live democracy.

So we do agree on some things. Regulation is the key. I don't think that banning guns is the answer... anymore than I think banning alcohol or cars or knives or prescription drugs or anything else that DOES have a use in this country. I can't speak for everyone in the thread, or the US, but I would assume most would agree that regulation is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of the people.

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

02/23/2012 12:39:26 PM · #144

Just to get back to a part of the discussion about the care and handling of firearms.

My husband had a pistol permit (as they were colloquially called) after going through
training and obtaining a license. He was careful with his firearms.

When Mace came out in self-defense canisters, I obtained one, after getting a short course
from the local police on how to use it, and receiving a license. In this case, the
need for a license (and training) was explained because this item of self-defense could be used
against the victim (without proper training in its usage).

I suppose this could also be said of firearms.

I applaud those who have training and know how to use firearms. Don't you wish everyone did?

Why, oh why, is there so much reluctance to require training before lawfully using firearms?

Message edited by author 2012-02-23 12:44:45.

02/23/2012 12:40:11 PM · #145

Originally posted by dyridings:

Originally posted by jagar:

I agree they should be regulated, the gun lobby's wouldn't be happy about that though and that would mean less cash for the candidates, long live democracy.

So we do agree on some things. Regulation is the key. I don't think that banning guns is the answer... anymore than I think banning alcohol or cars or knives or prescription drugs or anything else that DOES have a use in this country. I can't speak for everyone in the thread, or the US, but I would assume most would agree that regulation is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of the people.

we dont need more regulation we just need to start putting people who murderous commits crimes to death, right away, instead of keeping them alive for decades on the public's dime.

bhuge

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

02/23/2012 12:40:48 PM · #146

Originally posted by mike_311:

I will agree with this, and I think everyone here would also agree with this. The question is what weapons should you be allowed to use to defend your property?

What about land mines? Or maybe an RPG? Both would be very effective and deterring these roaming rapist and murderers that everyone is afraid of.

We have to draw a line somewhere, and in my opinion guns are overkill for self defense. In most situations mace or a taser would be just as effective while still being non-fatal. If you draw the line at guns, all criminals will probably have a gun, which forces all "defenders" to also have a gun to be on an even playing field. It becomes an arms race where everyone has to have the most deadly widely available weapon.

I don't agree with the statement "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns". It's proved time and again that outlaws in places like Japan don't typically use guns. They are not widely available which severely limits their use. You can even see the same thing in the US. RPG's are outlawed, so we should be seeing all the criminals use them but we don't.

I think the biggest issue isn't even directly related to guns. The US has some serious issues with fear mongering. Watch any news program and you would think that there are four rapist and murderer queued up outside every home waiting to break into the house. In reality this stuff is insanely rare. So rare that gun related accidents are much more likely to kill you then the random murderer.

I love this country, but this countries love for guns is one of the few reasons I would want to live elsewhere.

02/23/2012 12:42:27 PM · #147

Originally posted by sfalice:

Just to get back to a part of the discussion about the care and handling of firearms.

My husband had a pistol permit (as they were colloquially called) after going through
training and obtaining a license. He was careful with his firearms.

When Mace came out in self-defense canisters, I obtained one, after getting a short course
from the local police on how to use it, and receiving a license. In this case, the
need for a license was explained because this item of self-defense could be used
against the victim.

I suppose this could also be said of firearms.

I applaud those who have training and know how to use firearms. Don't you wish everyone did?

Why, oh why, is there so much reluctance to require training before lawfully using firearms?

It's the assumptions of the ignorant.

I do agree that people should have a permit/license/and be properly trained before obtaining a firearm. The sad truth of it is that this is not always the case.

It's the people that do NOT know how to use the weapon or have any type of education with regards to it that scare me.

Doesn't mean I think that the right should be taken away... just regulated... like I previously stated.

Just my two cents. :)

02/23/2012 12:43:30 PM · #148

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by dyridings:

Originally posted by jagar:

I agree they should be regulated, the gun lobby's wouldn't be happy about that though and that would mean less cash for the candidates, long live democracy.

So we do agree on some things. Regulation is the key. I don't think that banning guns is the answer... anymore than I think banning alcohol or cars or knives or prescription drugs or anything else that DOES have a use in this country. I can't speak for everyone in the thread, or the US, but I would assume most would agree that regulation is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of the people.

we dont need more regulation we just need to start putting people who murderous commits crimes to death, right away, instead of keeping them alive for decades on the public's dime.

I do agree with you there. I am for the death penalty... but that's another discussion. lol

02/23/2012 12:44:30 PM · #149

Originally posted by bhuge:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by jagar:

So except for the fact that I have to go through a long process to get a firearms license and even then it can only be for hunting or for a shooting range, what other rights have I not got that you do ?

we are allowed to use the weapons to defend our property.

I will agree with this, and I think everyone here would also agree with this. The question is what weapons should you be allowed to use to defend your property?

What about land mines? Or maybe an RPG? Both would be very effective and deterring these roaming rapist and murderers that everyone is afraid of.

We have to draw a line somewhere, and in my opinion guns are overkill for self defense. In most situations mace or a taser would be just as effective while still being non-fatal. If you draw the line at guns, all criminals will probably have a gun, which forces all "defenders" to also have a gun to be on an even playing field. It becomes an arms race where everyone has to have the most deadly widely available weapon.

I don't agree with the statement "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns". It's proved time and again that outlaws in places like Japan don't typically use guns. They are not widely available which severely limits their use. You can even see the same thing in the US. RPG's are outlawed, so we should be seeing all the criminals use them but we don't.

I think the biggest issue isn't even directly related to guns. The US has some serious issues with fear mongering. Watch any news program and you would think that there are four rapist and murderer queued up outside every home waiting to break into the house. In reality this stuff is insanely rare. So rare that gun related accidents are much more likely to kill you then the random murderer.

I love this country, but this countries love for guns is one of the few reasons I would want to live elsewhere.

Landmines... now THAT's an idea... keep those pesky dogs from getting in my garbage... and great for the unexpected visit from the inlaws. lmao