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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Do troll 1, 2, and 3 votes affect outcome?
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05/28/2011 02:32:37 PM · #26
Originally posted by mariuca:

...I call them "people who do not like my pictures"


I think most trolls are just "angry" people. If I enter to a challenge and hit by low votes to start with, I get irritated, and some people are taking revenge just voting low for that... specially new people here, excepting to receive good votes for their "good" work (in their mind)... nothing to lose.

...and I think some people just doesn't believe in "10" level voting, they are only going up to "5" for the highest.

and yes, trolls do affect the outcome, here is a sample

Second place with 7.2108
First place with 7.2118

Roz's photo is awesome, no doubt, but you just see how close sometimes votes can get
05/28/2011 04:25:16 PM · #27
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

and I think some people just doesn't believe in "10" level voting, they are only going up to "5" for the highest.

Yes and there are many who don't believe in giving less than "6" to balance them out. Several have admitted that here in the forums. Each of them is entitled to their opinion which is expressed by how they vote.

Originally posted by FocusPoint:

and yes, trolls do affect the outcome, here is a sample

I assume that you’re referring to the one "2" vote you received as the troll. You have to be careful taking that single vote out of context. All 166 votes you received impacted your average. You had nine more "10" votes than Roz's shot. Did you deserve them any more than you deserve the single "2" vote? If that "2" were a "5" and just one of your "10" votes was a "7" you still would have finished 2nd. If you lost a few more of those "10" votes you may have finished lower than you did.

All votes have mathematical impact you can't single out just the ones you don't like.
05/28/2011 05:02:30 PM · #28
Originally posted by DJWoodward:

Originally posted by FocusPoint:



[quote=FocusPoint]and yes, trolls do affect the outcome, here is a sample

I assume...


A man of numbers making assumptions? ;)
05/28/2011 05:07:14 PM · #29
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by mariuca:

...I call them "people who do not like my pictures"


I think most trolls are just "angry" people. If I enter to a challenge and hit by low votes to start with, I get irritated, and some people are taking revenge just voting low for that... specially new people here, excepting to receive good votes for their "good" work (in their mind)... nothing to lose.

...and I think some people just doesn't believe in "10" level voting, they are only going up to "5" for the highest.

and yes, trolls do affect the outcome, here is a sample

Second place with 7.2108
First place with 7.2118

Roz's photo is awesome, no doubt, but you just see how close sometimes votes can get


Leo, I think you need a break from DPC dude. Relax, shoot for you and not the voters, maybe you'll get a ribbon because of it, who knows?

Trolls are voters/members. I would love to see all your voting since you joined. I'm sure you never voted a 1 or 2 on a single photo in a challenge.

Yes, a wee bit of sarcasm, but just a wee bit.

There are just as many people who give unnecessary high votes to mediocre or bad images on this site you know, why aren't these people being pointed out for their lack of diversity in voting? You could also call these people trolls, they do the same damage, in that they skew the final outcome.
05/28/2011 05:30:28 PM · #30
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

and yes, trolls do affect the outcome, here is a sample

Second place with 7.2108
First place with 7.2118

Roz's photo is awesome, no doubt, but you just see how close sometimes votes can get


I'm not sure I see your point. Between these two fine photos there were only 3 sub four votes. One on Roz's, a 3 and two your photo, a 2 and a 3. No ones were cast on either. How do you equate that to trolls impacting the outcome?
05/28/2011 05:36:22 PM · #31
Try shooting for the brown some time, and you will find the 9,8,7 (I never seem to get 10s on those, they are more rare than the 1s) equally annoying and random as the usual 1,2,3. It is amusing to watch your score climb during the week and be annoyed. We rarely notice the anti-trolls, buy they are just as real as the trolls; or unreal as them.
05/28/2011 05:52:11 PM · #32
The system is flawed, yes its flawed for everyone, but that doesnt mean its still not flawed. I have no viable answer on how to fix it just a couple opinions.

The scale is 1 to 10 (doenst matter where you go, that still means the same thing) 1 is the worst, 10 is the best (or vice versa).

So, do either of those pictures (in the example below) resemble the worst you have ever seen or even close to it? No of course not. If you voted a 2 or a 3, its not because thats the worst you have ever seen, its because you are edited your voting scale for some other reason and no necessarily because you are malicious or anything. But as soon as you do that, you change how the scale works. In the end, it does balance out for the most part, but not always so you will always have anomalies.

However, if you follow a scale the way it is made, 1 = Worst, 10 = Best, then neither of those pictures should have received 1-3. Even if the picture does not match the voters taste, they should at least know the difference between a good quality picture and one that just inst their style.

And if you go by that, then the average new voter will start high, as most new pictures will be the best they have seen, then slowly as they view more and more work there scores will lower down to what the true average is. Now, sure, suppose if someone truly believes they are the best photographer on the planet, and they are here on DPC, then they will vote lower, because to them, everything but theirs is garbage.

Sadly, there is a counter argument for everything, life is about opinions, and even if we got the system to where you vote 1-2 you have to leave a comment, most will adjust their scores above that as to not have to. The average will get raised, and 3 will be the new 1. Its all a no win in the end.

I think the site should post something on proper scoring (like a car show, or a talent show, there are rules to voting) Layout what the scale means, use words on the score board to reiterate it. I still think it should be two scales, one for technical and one for visual, but I know most of you are against that (that way if a voter hates the piece, he could vote 1 for visual but still give it a 9 for technical giving an average vote of 5.5 as an example)

But dont get upset that some users are voicing their feelings on the voting system, its an opinion, opinions bread discussion, discussion leads to change. This site I am sure is not the same as it was 5 years ago, and wont be the same 5 years from now.
05/28/2011 05:58:47 PM · #33
Those pictures were the worst according to some and the best according to some. It's not a flaw, just a fact. Everyone sees things differently.
05/28/2011 06:01:35 PM · #34
Originally posted by jbsmithana:


I'm not sure I see your point. Between these two fine photos there were only 3 sub four votes. One on Roz's, a 3 and two your photo, a 2 and a 3. No ones were cast on either. How do you equate that to trolls impacting the outcome?


I am guessing he is using one of these two possibilities.

FocusPoint
Actual - 7.2108: 166 votes
Optn 1 - 7.2682: 164 votes (remove anything less then 4)
Optn 2 - 7.2650: 166 votes (replace anything less then 4 with average)

Roz
Actual - 7.2118: 170 votes
Optn 1 -7.2637: 169 votes (remove anything less then 4)
Optn 2 -7.2353: 170 votes (replace anything less then 4 with average)

05/28/2011 06:04:58 PM · #35
The scale is [Bad < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >Good] It is not Worst to Best.

In the examples given some 8% though they were closer to Bad and 91% felt they was closer to Good.
05/28/2011 06:07:57 PM · #36
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Those pictures were the worst according to some and the best according to some. It's not a flaw, just a fact. Everyone sees things differently.


I completely disagree, and I would be willing to wager we could take that to the streets and ask as many people as you wanted if this is the WORST (or even one of the worst) pictures they have ever seen that you would be hard pressed to find even one person who says either of those are.
05/28/2011 06:08:11 PM · #37
Originally posted by Socom:

I am guessing he is using one of these two possibilities...


Why should we be able to selectively throw away just the votes we don't like? They have no less validity than the votes we do like.
05/28/2011 06:09:11 PM · #38
Originally posted by DJWoodward:

The scale is [Bad < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >Good] It is not Worst to Best.

In the examples given some 8% though they were closer to Bad and 91% felt they was closer to Good.


your mixing words, its the same thing..

If your using good or bad, that means that based on that scale there cant be anything better then good. (that would mean its the best) otherwise we would have to let people vote 11
05/28/2011 06:09:16 PM · #39
Originally posted by Socom:

This site I am sure is not the same as it was 5 years ago, and wont be the same 5 years from now.

Not the same? The search results for "Vote" from 2002-03 would seem to indicate that things have stayed remarkably the same. One sample thread ...

Originally posted by Steve Brown, c. 1978:

STABILITY n. Facing the same contradictions year after year.
05/28/2011 06:12:24 PM · #40
Originally posted by DJWoodward:

Originally posted by Socom:

I am guessing he is using one of these two possibilities...


Why should we be able to selectively throw away just the votes we don't like? They have no less validity than the votes we do like.


I am not saying we should, I honestly dont have an answer, doesnt mean I dont think there is something wrong tho, I just think when your voting on something there should be some uniformity like any voting situation. To make sure its not person choice, so sure, we can do the throw out the high and the low, fine with me, or we could go to two scales, technical and visual, just saying, doesnt hurt to talk options. maybe something will come of it that is better then it is. Maybe not.
05/28/2011 06:12:54 PM · #41
Originally posted by Socom:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Those pictures were the worst according to some and the best according to some. It's not a flaw, just a fact. Everyone sees things differently.


I completely disagree, and I would be willing to wager we could take that to the streets and ask as many people as you wanted if this is the WORST (or even one of the worst) pictures they have ever seen that you would be hard pressed to find even one person who says either of those are.


Again this is selective editing of the voting experience. You can't take the one picture out of the context of all of the other pictures in the competion and expect a similar response. In the #2 picture of the example one person voted it a "2" considering all factors such as the challenge theme, technicals, other pictures and yes personal bias and that is Ok.
05/28/2011 06:15:25 PM · #42
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Socom:

This site I am sure is not the same as it was 5 years ago, and wont be the same 5 years from now.

Not the same? The search results for "Vote" from 2002-03 would seem to indicate that things have stayed remarkably the same. One sample thread ...

Originally posted by Steve Brown, c. 1978:

STABILITY n. Facing the same contradictions year after year.


look at your highest rated photos, all early in the sites history, allmost all have no 1,2 or 3's. And no offence to langdon but there is no way this image would not get a 1 today. so to me.. thats change.
05/28/2011 06:20:21 PM · #43
Originally posted by DJWoodward:

Originally posted by Socom:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Those pictures were the worst according to some and the best according to some. It's not a flaw, just a fact. Everyone sees things differently.


I completely disagree, and I would be willing to wager we could take that to the streets and ask as many people as you wanted if this is the WORST (or even one of the worst) pictures they have ever seen that you would be hard pressed to find even one person who says either of those are.


Again this is selective editing of the voting experience. You can't take the one picture out of the context of all of the other pictures in the competion and expect a similar response. In the #2 picture of the example one person voted it a "2" considering all factors such as the challenge theme, technicals, other pictures and yes personal bias and that is Ok.


And that may be the case, not saying its not, but, when you get as many excellent shots that have 1's and 2's then odds are something else is effecting that voting scale, im not talking about one or two, were talking about every challenge. Were are also not talking abstract art where you dont know what your looking at and its all a matter of taste or impression, unless were doing an abstract challenge, then I agree its almost all about taste and impression.

which goes back to, there should be two scales, one for technical and one for visual (taste), I think that would be the most fair to both the voter and the photographer.
05/28/2011 06:22:37 PM · #44
Originally posted by Socom:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Socom:

This site I am sure is not the same as it was 5 years ago, and wont be the same 5 years from now.

Not the same? The search results for "Vote" from 2002-03 would seem to indicate that things have stayed remarkably the same. One sample thread ...

Originally posted by Steve Brown, c. 1978:

STABILITY n. Facing the same contradictions year after year.


look at your highest rated photos, all early in the sites history, allmost all have no 1,2 or 3's. And no offence to langdon but there is no way this image would not get a 1 today. so to me.. thats change.


You really can't use that shot as an example of change. It was one of the first challenges and there were only 20 entrants. There is no way that this shot represents the DPC norm today or any time in the last 10 years.
05/28/2011 06:22:56 PM · #45
Looking at images in isolation (not with the rest in the competition) is not viewing the whole picture (no pun intended). On their own, images may very likely rate higher, however, in context, the rating is lower since the rating is used as a placement value. This is but one way of dealing with voting. It may not be yours but that does not make it wrong.
05/28/2011 06:24:58 PM · #46
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Looking at images in isolation (not with the rest in the competition) is not viewing the whole picture (no pun intended). On their own, images may very likely rate higher, however, in context, the rating is lower since the rating is used as a placement value. This is but one way of dealing with voting. It may not be yours but that does not make it wrong.


I guess then there is where I am confused, I could have sworn we were told not to look at them as a whole, but each one individual. If that is not the case, then you are correct and I will start handing out ones
05/28/2011 06:26:11 PM · #47
Originally posted by Socom:

which goes back to, there should be two scales, one for technical and one for visual (taste), I think that would be the most fair to both the voter and the photographer.


The idea sounds good in theory but a balance must be maintained between ease of use and value though. If there is a scale for technical and visual why not one for DNMC or any other factor that voters consider. Pretty soon you have a voting process that takes 5 times as long to complete and voters stop voting.

Also the more factors you have to average the more the final average will push toward the center. Doing as you suggest final averages will be forced toward the center of the scale. Check out the voting expirement I tried referenced on my profile.

Message edited by author 2011-05-28 18:28:52.
05/28/2011 06:31:33 PM · #48
Originally posted by Socom:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Looking at images in isolation (not with the rest in the competition) is not viewing the whole picture (no pun intended). On their own, images may very likely rate higher, however, in context, the rating is lower since the rating is used as a placement value. This is but one way of dealing with voting. It may not be yours but that does not make it wrong.


I guess then there is where I am confused, I could have sworn we were told not to look at them as a whole, but each one individual. If that is not the case, then you are correct and I will start handing out ones


It is suggested, but not required. Everyone has the right to vote in any manner they feel is appropriate for themselves, however. Some vote each image on its own as it relates to the challenge. Others vote images in comparison. Others vote images with almost NO consideration for what the challenge is.

No way is inherently wrong. It's what makes the whole process so interesting and ecclectic. (and frustrating and maddening).

C'est la vie.
05/28/2011 06:32:04 PM · #49
Ok, look.. I give.. you guys will not hear of other possibilities, or even contemplate changes or allow for discussions without shooting down every idea or thought someone on here doesnt agree with. Its this is the way it is and thats that. As I said, there is a counter argument for everything, I am open to trying new things, apparently you are not. Fine, leave it, ignore those that are more and more complaining and or leaving, the way it is is the best it will ever be. I am wrong.

p.s. How many times in this thread or other ones have I said, lets do two voting scales, one technical and one visual, each time that part is ignored. Hell we could do like the Olympics do, technical score, visual score, remove the high and low from each one then average the two.

p.s.s just saw your comment on the above. I am done with this thread. I'll leave it for someone else to discuss.

Message edited by author 2011-05-28 18:33:57.
05/28/2011 06:34:01 PM · #50
Originally posted by FocusPoint:


I think most trolls are just "angry" people.

... and of course we can establish that trolls exist for a fact and then determine that they are "angry:

Originally posted by FocusPoint:

If I enter to a challenge and hit by low votes to start with, I get irritated, and some people are taking revenge just voting low for that... specially new people here, excepting to receive good votes for their "good" work (in their mind)... nothing to lose.


I am sure you get irritated, but what basis do you have to think that people know which one is your entry and that they are out to get revenge?

Originally posted by FocusPoint:

...and I think some people just doesn't believe in "10" level voting, they are only going up to "5" for the highest.


Yet another example of pure speculation based on nothing but supposition.

I can appreciate your frustration, but if things bother you that much perhaps you should simply forego the competitions altogether...it might prove beneficial.

Ray
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