Honestly, what's the big deal about Gay Marriage?

Konica Minolta AF D 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 DT

03/08/2004 12:48:05 PM · #326

grace's comment above reminds me of the quote attributed to Pastor Martin Niemoller, pacificist, advocate for intellectual freedom and head of the anti-nazi confessing church:

In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.

fluxn

Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D

03/08/2004 01:22:04 PM · #327

Here's my first contribution to the thread:

1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.

2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs more children.

3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if Gay marriage is allowed, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.

7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire counrty. That's why we have only one religion in America.

fluxn

Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D

Konica Minolta AF D 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 DT

03/08/2004 01:22:28 PM · #328

cont...

8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.

RonB

03/08/2004 01:40:31 PM · #329

I've sat this one out for, perhaps, too long. It was easier to sit it out when folks insisted that the Bible not be brought into the arguments, so I respected that. But now that the scriptures are being attacked, I feel obligated to respond to that attack. As Jacko stated in another thread "All I know is if you want to put forth a view in here, you better be ready to back it up. No freebies".
It seems that some will (mis)quote the bible to support their positions, and some will (mis)quote it to destroy the position of those who oppose them. Since the letter to Dr. Laura is of the latter variety, I feel that it is only fair to respond. In my usual style, I will respond point by point.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me begin by saying that the ficticious writer, like many others, has unfortunately fallen into the trap of trying to interpret and/or misuse scripture out of context. For a proper perspective, one needs to consider the WHOLE of scripture. So, the first thing that must be done, is to see what the REST of scripture has to say. With that in mind, I will attempt to answer the questions as though they were legitimate. In many of my answers I will refer to Romans 13 ( that's in the New Testament ). That passage informs us that "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established ... therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience." In other words, God commands us to obey man's laws in a given matter if those laws are not in conflict with His own, but we are not to obey them if they ARE in conflict with His own. For example: If man's law says that we must bow down and worship a statue of our governor, then we must disobey man's law, for God's law ( Exodus 20:3) states that "You shall have no other gods besides me"; but if man's law says that we may NOT own slaves, then we must obey man's law ( since nowhere does God's law say that we MUST own slaves ). Hopefully that distinction is clear. On another note, many of God's ordinances dealt with resources and remedies that are no longer available - for example: the Tent of Meeting ( later, the Temple ) or the Altar contained therein; the Temple that housed the Altar, and the altar itself, was completely destroyed in 70 A.D. As such, many of the activities and/or remedies are impossible to carry out in modern times. For those, we must trust that God, Himself, will see to it that His Law is fulfilled on the Day of Judgement. So, with that in mind. . .

1. Should you smite your neighbors because they complain about the odor of a burning bull? Of course not. Unless you are a PRIEST who is burning the bull at THE ALTAR ( which, as noted earlier, is impossible to do ), then not only do your neighbors have every right to complain, but they may eventually turn you in to the authorities for violating local or state ordinances that prohibit open burning within their respective jurisdictions. It should be noted that these prohibitions do not mean that God would NOT be pleased with the aroma if you WERE a PRIEST and burned a bull at the altar in accordance with his instructions.

2. See Romans 13. In most civilized nations, Man's law, says that you may NOT sell your daughter into slavery; God's law does not say that you MUST sell her into slavery; therefore, you must obey man's law.

3. How can you tell if a woman is in her menstrual period? YOU probably can't, if she is not your wife. But you have misinterpreted scrupture - it does not say that you "are allowed no contact" with the woman during her period. It merely states that such IF such contact were to occur, it would result in your being unclean until evening. So, if you are at all concerned about being unclean, even for a short time, then you should avoid ALL women, just to be on the safe side.

4. See Romans 13. Again, in most civilized nations, Man's law says that you may NOT own slaves ( either foreign or domestic ); God's law does not say that you MUST own slaves; therefore, you must obey man's law. For the record, your neighbor is wrong. Here in the U.S., both Mexicans and Canadians fall under the equal protection of our Constitution.

5. If you can prove that your neighbor works on the Sabbath, then you must call for a meeting of the elders before the Tent of Meeting, provide your proof, obtain a conviction from the elders, and then, if so ordained, take the man out and have the congregation stone him to death. Now, as I have already stated, the Tent of Meeting ( Temple ) was destroyed; also, I feel that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to ascertain just who "the elders" are anymore, so this is another one of those situations that will just have to wait until the Day of Judgement, and let God sort it out.

6. Are there 'degrees' of abomination? Yes, there are. There are things that are detestable to MAN but not to GOD, and there are things that are detestable to GOD but not to to MAN. We must be absolutely certain to consider GOD's view as the ultimate governing authority. In the case of shellfish, your neighbor has every right to feel that eating shellfish is destable. He is acting in good faith. However, this scripture should NOT be interpreted as meaning that GOD considers the eating of shellfish detestable - for the scripture never says that. It merely says that MAN should consider it detestable, not that GOD does. By the way, this scripture is quoted extensively by gays and lesbians as rationalization to convince others that the statement in Leviticus 18:22 which states that GOD considers homosexual relations as detestable, should be ignored UNLESS you consider the eating of shellfish as equally detestable. You MUST note the difference: GOD considers homosexual relations to be detestable, but nowhere in scripture does it state that GOD considers the eating of shellfish to be detestable.

7. Does your vision have to be 20/20 to approach the altar of God? Yes, it does. That is made VERY clear in scripture. However, the question arises: Are you a priest? Because, if not, you have no right to be approaching the altar in the first place ( and I'm going to assume that you are NOT a priest, otherwise you wouldn't be asking these questions ). Then again, as stated earlier, the Temple and Altar have been destroyed anyway, so you couldn't approach the altar even if you wanted to. So, in summation, no, you need have no worry that you wear glasses.

8. Wow. Has no one ever told you that Death is not the remedy or punishment for EVERY violation of God's ordinances? Scripture does NOT say that a man who trims his hair should be killed. It only says that God says not to trim your hair. Scripture does not prescribe any particular punishment for trimming your hair. I take that to mean that whatever the "punishment" is, it will be administered by God, Himself. My advice to you, therefore, is to "let go, and let God".

9. May you play football if you wear gloves? Yes, you may. But, it's a precaution that you probably don't need to take. The footballs used in the NFL, by all NCAA college football teams, and by every high-school team that I know of are not made of pigskin - they're made of cowhide. So unless you are using a football that you KNOW to be made out of pigskin, you should assume that it is NOT. At any rate, if you DO come in contact with a football, just be sure to bathe before leaving the locker room, and you'll be just fine.

10. All this smiting, and stoning, and burning. For some reason, you seem to have a real anger management issue. Have you considered psychiatric treatment? If not, you really should. Let me say, once, again, that Death is NOT the punishment for EVERYthing. There are reasons why God instructed His people to NOT do certain things, but, for MANY of them, he did not prescribe specific punishments ( though, you will notice, he did seem to be quite severe in prescribing punishments for sexual immorality - He didn't seem to hem and haw about that at all ). At any rate, as far as your kin are concerned: If it makes you feel better, you could take it upon yourself to warn them of the scriptural prohibitions, and suggest that they repent. But I don't think that that approach will earn you any kudos, and may, in fact, cause familial discord, so please do so carefully, if you do so at all. Finally, you should not be burning anyone to death at a private family affair. Burnings like that MUST be carried out by the whole community, in accordance with scripture. And, once again, scripture requires that you bring charges to the elders at that ( destroyed ) Tent of Meeting. I'm afraid that this is another one you will just have to leave to the Day of Judgement. Sorry about that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards

Ron

03/08/2004 01:51:33 PM · #330

We can argue about the bible (but I don't know enough to argue intelligently about it), but what I think needs to be established first is that the bible gets to pick what the law will be regarding civil rights. And if so, whose bible? And what if you're not of that religion? This is not a religious question about whether gay marriage is sanctioned by any Church. This is a question about whether gay marriage should be illegal. Lots of things are legal that are forbidden in the scriptures of some religion. So when someone can make the link for me how religion gets to rule this debate, I'll concede the point, but before then, I don't think God has anything to do with this.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

03/08/2004 02:20:19 PM · #331

Originally posted by RonB:

Here in the U.S., both Mexicans and Canadians fall under the equal protection of our Constitution.

Which is none, right ? I.e., they get the same amount of protection, its just no protection at all.

Internal law might apply I guess, unless of course a big super power considers you an 'enemy combatant' and doesn't want to give you any rights at all.

Edit: I take that back. Seems some Mexicans are getting their constitutional rights over international law, after all.

Message edited by author 2004-03-08 14:24:28.

RonB

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

03/08/2004 02:56:09 PM · #332

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by RonB:
Here in the U.S., both Mexicans and Canadians fall under the equal protection of our Constitution.

Which is none, right ? I.e., they get the same amount of protection, its just no protection at all.

Mexicans and Canadians, as well as all other non-citizens, are STILL granted the protections afforded citizens under Amendments IV through VIII. And these rights are afforded even to those who enter our country illegally.

Ron

muckpond

Nikon D200

03/08/2004 03:49:07 PM · #333

Originally posted by frisca:

So when someone can make the link for me how religion gets to rule this debate, I'll concede the point, but before then, I don't think God has anything to do with this.

Amen.

(pun intended)

JPR

Sony Alpha a55

Sony DT 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Super Wide Angle Zoom

03/09/2004 12:07:28 AM · #334

I haven't even read this thread until now because I didn't feel like getting into the debate. Now that I finally made it here I feel I need to express my opinion. My opinion is that I have great respect for many of you who have voicesd your opinions in this ridiculous argument. You will know who you are if you read the rest of this post. Consider this a handshake of understanding.

That said, I will start with a few questions that are in my brain:

You're gay and you're going to get married... Do you call each other husband if you are both men and wife if you are both women? Certainly I understand the view stated that the term "partner" makes you seem like some crime-team, but it seems like the best solution to me. Of course, the whole issue of what the term marriage means is all mixed up anyway. To me, an athiest, a marriage is the union of a husband and a wife. It's simply a self-created linguistic brain-block I know I shouldn't dwell on. It has nothing to do with religion.

How can you possibly be gay and religious? Gay Christian sounds like a cut and dry oxymoron to me. Of course, I'll leave the real question, "How can you be religious?" on the table as well. And I'm not saying you have to be an athiest, but a strict follower of a doctrine that says you are going to hell...you make yourself ok with that?!

Personally, I was the most intrigued by the post about the agnostic who married the Catholic girl (I apologize but it's too far to scroll down to so I might not get my facts right.) It made me very happy. Being an atheist, I had nearly reached the conclusion that the only way I was going to settle down with a life partner was if I found a nice athiest or agnostic girl. It's great to see that such a relationship can work with mutual understanding. There are good religious people out there and religion plays a very beneficial role in many lives and in many communities. The whole concept, however, besides the basic desire to want to believe in some force and life hereafter, is completely absurd and anyone with half a brain not blinded by blind faith could see it. Religion, as a whole, is responsible for the worst things in history and is by nature ignorant and intolerant.

I also wouldn't want to get married in a church but if my future wife wants that to make her happy being an atheist gives me the ability to engage in any ceremony she desires. What matters to me is the bond of love between the people.

I admire the gay people that I know because they tend to use the brains nature gave them more than most straight people. Of course, being straight, I completely understand the desire for straight people to be straight and a bit put-off by the idea of homosexual unions. Deal with it...

fluxn: loved your posts!

As others have already stated, I'm feeling a bit embarassed to be an American as well. The fact that anyone here, in the media, or anywhere for that matter, can argue against gay marriage and actually think they have even a shred of a convincing material is overwhelmingly mindblowing. Some old book? Did you see the Passion yet? Jesus was a raving lunatic! Do you know how many jesuses there are in the US alone today. Thousands...all locked up in mental institutions where they belong. Your second coming is drooling in a staight jacket somewhere. Just cause he was the first and people as a whole were stupider and Mary got raped it makes the stories true. Oh yeah, the magical powers. Like there aren't stories of magicians and forces from all over the place. Somehow all those powers got attributed to "dark elements." We should all start believing everything we read. That's a healthy way to live. I think some of you really didn't evolve from apes. Even monkeys could see the right side of this argument, assuming they weren't religious monkeys of course.

Sorry for the rant. Even thinking about religion makes me a bit angry as I'm sure you can tell.

I wish there was something I could do to change the world into an unreligiously moral place, although based on my experiences I'm amazed that we've made it as far as we have.

ChrisW123

Canon EOS-1000D Rebel XS

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

03/09/2004 12:46:23 AM · #335

Originally posted by JasonPR:

I admire the gay people that I know because they tend to use the brains nature gave them more than most straight people. Of course, being straight, I completely understand the desire for straight people to be straight and a bit put-off by the idea of homosexual unions. Deal with it...

LOL, yeah gay people are more intelligent then straight people, generally? This is a biased and ridiculous statement and shows how people are trained to be ultra sensitive, no matter how ridiculous the statement is. The second statement, "I understand the desire for straights to be straight..." is another example of how liberals have completely screwed up poeple's thinking, to the point of making them actually feel GUILTY for being straight.

leaf

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/09/2004 01:17:34 AM · #336

Originally posted by JasonPR:

I wish there was something I could do to change the world into an unreligiously moral place, although based on my experiences I'm amazed that we've made it as far as we have.

if you are looking for oximorons.. i think that one is quite a fine one there. 'unreligiuosly moral place'... what is morality without religion... whatever i 'feel' is right?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/09/2004 01:22:24 AM · #337

Originally posted by leaf:

Originally posted by JasonPR:

I wish there was something I could do to change the world into an unreligiously moral place, although based on my experiences I'm amazed that we've made it as far as we have.

if you are looking for oximorons.. i think that one is quite a fine one there. 'unreligiuosly moral place'... what is morality without religion... whatever i 'feel' is right?

No, it is "doing the right thing" of your own volition because it IS the right thing, not because you are threatened with eternal damnation (or Federal prison) if you don't.

I have a highly developed enough moral sense to have been declared a CO by the Selective Service System, yet am not what you'd traditionally call a "religious" person.

Message edited by author 2004-03-09 01:27:06.

mbardeen

Canon PowerShot G3

03/09/2004 03:50:35 AM · #338

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Originally posted by JasonPR:
I admire the gay people that I know because they tend to use the brains nature gave them more than most straight people. Of course, being straight, I completely understand the desire for straight people to be straight and a bit put-off by the idea of homosexual unions. Deal with it...

LOL, yeah gay people are more intelligent then straight people, generally? This is a biased and ridiculous statement and shows how people are trained to be ultra sensitive, no matter how ridiculous the statement is. The second statement, "I understand the desire for straights to be straight..." is another example of how liberals have completely screwed up poeple's thinking, to the point of making them actually feel GUILTY for being straight.

When I read "they tend to use the brains nature gave them more than most straight people" I understood it as "more willing to think for themselves," as opposed "being told what to think and not questioning it." The use of one's brains has nothing to do with how intelligent one is. Regardless, it's probably a biased claim - one's sexuality probably has no direct correlation with their open mindedness.

Secondly, your arguments would carry more weight if you didn't make the same mistake that you just accused Jason of making. The phrase "how liberals have completely screwed up people's thinking" is blatently biased and ridiculous - it makes you sound like a nutter. Sweeping statements blaming one particular group of people (no matter what their label) for some perceived wrong are usually biased and compeletely ridiculous. Unless it's the government that is being blamed. ;)

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

03/09/2004 08:01:41 AM · #339

Originally posted by leaf:

So only religious people are moral? Which religion is the one with the correct morals since they all differ?

RonB

03/09/2004 08:19:38 AM · #340

Originally posted by JasonPR:

Religion, as a whole, is responsible for the worst things in history and is by nature ignorant and intolerant.

Wow. What a sweeping statement. I DO wish you would create a list of the ten worst things in history and then declare which of them Religion, as a whole, was responsible for ( And you can't count "natural" disasters and then blame them on God ). For example, I don't believe that either Genghis Kahn or the Adolph Hitler was "religious", unless you call Secular Humanism a "religion" as I do - but then that would make YOU "religious".
To say that religion is by nature ignorant falls flat on its face when you consider that thousands of the greatest works of art and music were created to glorify God. Are you implying that secular art and music are the works of non-ignorant people but that religious art and music are the works of ignorant people?
To say that religion is by nature intolerant is a view held only by those who are themselves intolerant, otherwise they would tolerate religious viewpoints, without considering them to be intolerant.

I'll be looking forward to you list of the worst things in history.

Ron

robsmith

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG for Canon

03/09/2004 08:59:51 AM · #341

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by JasonPR:
Religion, as a whole, is responsible for the worst things in history and is by nature ignorant and intolerant.

Wow. What a sweeping statement. I DO wish you would create a list of the ten worst things in history and then declare which of them Religion, as a whole, was responsible for ( And you can't count "natural" disasters and then blame them on God ). For example, I don't believe that either Genghis Kahn or the Adolph Hitler was "religious", unless you call Secular Humanism a "religion" as I do - but then that would make YOU "religious".
To say that religion is by nature ignorant falls flat on its face when you consider that thousands of the greatest works of art and music were created to glorify God. Are you implying that secular art and music are the works of non-ignorant people but that religious art and music are the works of ignorant people?
To say that religion is by nature intolerant is a view held only by those who are themselves intolerant, otherwise they would tolerate religious viewpoints, without considering them to be intolerant.

I'll be looking forward to you list of the worst things in history.

Ron

There you go Jason, make a list - but please only include items which Ron allows.

gpierson

Sony DSC-P52

03/09/2004 10:23:30 AM · #342

"Religion" is a word esily thrown around here (and generalized). To me, it is spirituality that is important-a relationship with God. Jesus was a man that showed Chritians how to live morally, ethically, just. I think if he were faced with this issue he would turn to love and not damnation. It is so easy to get confused about "religion" and Christianity by those films featuring southern preachers or catholic preists beating their congregation into submission(literally & figuratively), it really is not that way everywhere and tends to give "religion" a bad name. I think God has a plan for everyone christian or not. Spirituality helps me understand it a little better.

GoldBerry

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

03/09/2004 11:04:59 AM · #343

Originally posted by JasonPR:

JasonPR feels it, therefore it is true, apparently that's end of discussion. *slaps forehead* Thanks for all the insight. lol. All jokes aside, your post is the most beligerant and offensive I've ever read, but you will not be judged for it by me or anyone else on this earth. I do, however, wish you luck in life. Hope you find whatever it is you're looking for in life...not only will I *hope* but I'll pray.

Message edited by author 2004-03-09 11:07:30.

leaf

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/09/2004 11:27:01 AM · #344

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by leaf:

Originally posted by JasonPR:

I wish there was something I could do to change the world into an unreligiously moral place, although based on my experiences I'm amazed that we've made it as far as we have.

if you are looking for oximorons.. i think that one is quite a fine one there. 'unreligiuosly moral place'... what is morality without religion... whatever i 'feel' is right?

So only religious people are moral? Which religion is the one with the correct morals since they all differ?

No not at all, I think everyone know's what it is to be moral. We all have a conscience.

MadMordegon

03/09/2004 12:55:46 PM · #345

"Your second coming is drooling in a staight jacket somewhere."

LOL

nice rant, partly true too ;)

GoldBerry

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

03/09/2004 01:19:42 PM · #346

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

"Your second coming is drooling in a staight jacket somewhere."

LOL

nice rant, partly true too ;)

Partly true? Please, share with us some personal stories and fact [I said FACT, not what you heard at the pub the other night when talking to your equally atheist buddies] to back up these claims. So far, everything you guys have said was purely personal opinion based on some anger. Seriously, I'm not antagonizing you, I'm waiting........for my own curiosity.

Message edited by author 2004-03-09 13:21:09.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

03/09/2004 01:26:35 PM · #347

The Bible said slavery was okay. I agree it did not say you must own slaves, but it says it's okay. Obviously slavery is not okay. Even if you killed my dog, me taking you or your daughter as my slave is just wrong. Some religons may say slavery is acceptable and other countries may allow it, but I do not believe that you think slavery would be okay, even if it was legal. Thus, maybe the bible isn't always right. Maybe it's okay to disagree with the bible. I beleive that was the point being made.

03/09/2004 01:32:09 PM · #348

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"Your second coming is drooling in a staight jacket somewhere."

LOL

nice rant, partly true too ;)

Partly true? Please, share with us some personal stories and fact [I said FACT, not what you heard at the pub the other night when talking to your equally atheist buddies] to back up these claims. So far, everything you guys have said was purely personal opinion based on some anger. Seriously, I'm not antagonizing you, I'm waiting........for my own curiosity.

I don't think anyone is attempting to assert fact. I think the thought being raised here is what joan osborne asked "what if God were one of us? Just a slob like one of us?" The JPR seems to be making is that the world is full of skeptics.. how are you going to identify who is God and who is just a lunatic?