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04/01/2009 02:48:36 PM · #1 |
For those that do believe in one or the other:
I'm a Christian with no church. By this I mean my relationship with God is a personal one because, until now, I've believed that all I can do is follow my heart. If I die and go to Heaven I doubt He will take "Well, my pastor said it was OK." as an excuse for doing something wrong in His eyes. I do attend a church (Of which I'm 1 of 2 foreigners) when time allows, but the messages being taught are done so in a way that I can appreciate. The last one was "Have your story ready." It talks about how as a Christian we should be ready to tell our story when someone asks. That it is not to be pushed on people...of course using versus from the Bible.
What I can't seem to wrap my head around is how of many denominations truly use fear as a way of getting people to follow their faith. I don't have many friends of faith in Japan, many are agnostic or atheist and religion is not a real party conversation for many unless it's to make fun of it. However, I had an encounter with a Catholic gentleman, someone I had seen at work now and again. He was much older than myself, in his 50's at least, and I asked him what he thought my future in the afterlife would be like so long as I put my faith in Jesus and God...his answer was "The only true Church is the Catholic church. It might be hard to swallow, but that's it." I took that to mean that I wouldn't be going to a nice place when I died. So how does one really know which church to follow? I didn't grow up in a Christian home, after attempts with 'cooler' religions, I found my way to Christianity. My story is long and I won't share it now, but I wonder how someone who has grown up in a time when science is providing answers to questions we thought not answerable, a life where I hold onto my faith even after watching Charles Dawkins talk about a world without religion...how do I know what is best? How can I really know I'm on the right path?
I ask this forum because I know that there are people from all over the world who come from different backgrounds here that could possibly (even partially) answer this question. PM's are fine if you don't want it in the open. |
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04/01/2009 03:07:47 PM · #2 |
Hrmmm... As far as I'm concerned, the idea of "one true faith" (when choosing between "flavors" of Christianity) is a bunch of hokum; it's *marketing* basically. I refuse to believe that God is gonna be making decisions based on which sect did a better job promoting their flavor, be it through fear or acceptance. And, even IF there were a particular approach to Christianity that carried God's exclusive imprimatur (sort of like "By Appointment to Her Majesty the Queen") I sure as heck don't think it would be the Catholic faith, which (in my eyes) has deviated so far from Christ's basic teachings as to constitute in many ways a mockery of what it means to be a Christian.
But I'm just one voice, and you'll hear more I'm sure :-)
R.
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04/01/2009 03:22:55 PM · #3 |
//www.allaboutgod.com/how-to-get-to-heaven.htm
Maybe this will help!! :)
It's all about Jesus. |
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04/01/2009 03:24:47 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Hrmmm... As far as I'm concerned, the idea of "one true faith" (when choosing between "flavors" of Christianity) is a bunch of hokum; it's *marketing* basically. I refuse to believe that God is gonna be making decisions based on which sect did a better job promoting their flavor, be it through fear or acceptance. And, even IF there were a particular approach to Christianity that carried God's exclusive imprimatur (sort of like "By Appointment to Her Majesty the Queen") I sure as heck don't think it would be the Catholic faith, which (in my eyes) has deviated so far from Christ's basic teachings as to constitute in many ways a mockery of what it means to be a Christian.
But I'm just one voice, and you'll hear more I'm sure :-)
R. |
As a practicing Catholic I will try my best not to make a mockery of what it means (in your eyes) to be a Christian.
However, passing judgement on how others choose to celebrate their faith is something I choose not to do. |
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04/01/2009 03:25:04 PM · #5 |
The Bible tells you to put your faith in Jesus, Christian and or Catholic churches are simply assemblies where people can gather and be taught. Unfortunately some people also associate attendance to be the way to either achieve salvation and or be the proof they are saved which is totally wrong. I grew up in a Catholic church and watched as my Grandmother who had attended church daily worry about her salvation because she became to ill to make it to service, it was sad to see that she did not understand it is not the act of going to church but rather her faith in Christ alone that provided her salvation.
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 15:29:16. |
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04/01/2009 03:30:01 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
As a practicing Catholic I will try my best not to make a mockery of what it means (in your eyes) to be a Christian.
However, passing judgement on how others choose to celebrate their faith is something I choose not to do. |
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be *mocking* anybody: I make a strong distinction between *Catholics* and the hierarchy that governs their church. I spoke intemperately, and I do apologize to you (and any other Catholics who may be reading this thread). I'll go back in my hole now...
R.
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04/01/2009 03:33:02 PM · #7 |
Just wanted to keep this post where I can find it for when I get a chance read more.
God Bless,
~D~ |
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04/01/2009 03:47:05 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Damzel:
Just wanted to keep this post where I can find it for when I get a chance read more.
God Bless,
~D~ |
I've done that before. You can also use the 'Watch' thead feature. :-)
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04/01/2009 04:07:53 PM · #9 |
Wellll. . .I know this is a very controversial subject, and I think it is rare that anyone would change their own belief system based on what anyone would say here, but to answer your question "How does one know what to believe", I did alot of research and study and found that there is so much hard evidence -- and I'm talking about evidence totally separate from the Bible: scientific evidence, historic and journalistic evidence (by historians and journalists of the day that were NOT Christians) -- anyway -- the evidence that there did exist a man that nothing bad (except a maverick spirit) was ever found against him -- and that he really did die on a cross -- and many people, both religeous and not -- physically saw him the following week -- and a body was never produced to prove it wrong -- soooooooooooooo I'm going to believe THAT evidence and believe what THAT man said -- which was that we all need a saviour, and He is it -- but the invitation is to EVERYONE: catholic, budhist, atheist, new age, muslim, EVERYONE to receive him as their saviour and be saved. Unfortunately, He also said that He was/is God in human form, and therefore is the only one with that distinction to save. And those who choose not to receive this saviour won't be.
As for any of the other religions, I would also ask for hard, convincing evidence of its truth. Someone passionately believing something -- or just wanting something to be true because it makes them feel good doesn't make it so.
That's my 2-cents.
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 16:12:52. |
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04/01/2009 04:10:20 PM · #10 |
Great questions and I appreciate the candor of your post. It is hard to admit we don't know everything, but you can take solace in the fact that nobody knows everything. Before this thread explodes into noise, I'll weigh in.
I think you may want to take the beliefs you have as a Christian and divide them into three piles:
Core - these are the utmost essentials of Christianity. What beliefs are non-negotiable? You may actually be surprised at how few there are.
Doctrines - these are beliefs that basically separate denominations. They may be very important to individuals, but are not held across the catholic (read with a little 'c', that is, "universal") church.
Opinions - these are positions that are open to interpretation and debate among Christians.
I can't tell how far down the road you are from your post, but working on putting your beliefs into these piles will be helpful. In the end, the core beliefs are all that are important. Next, understanding doctrines helps you understand where different Christians are coming from. Finally opinions are there to be argued at will or simply ignored. You can save yourself confusion and distress when you hear someone arguing that an opinion is a core belief, etc.
If you want to PM, I'm happy to share my opinion on what falls where. Finding other friends to explore your faith with is also important. While going to a church is not a "requirement", it is probably the easiest to wind up in left field when you are going it alone.
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 16:11:59. |
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04/01/2009 04:28:36 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
While going to a church is not a "requirement", it is probably the easiest to wind up in left field when you are going it alone. |
See, that's where I have the problems.
I don't go it alone, I do what I believe it is that God tells me, NOT what someone in a pulpit with his/her own agenda wants me to buy into.
The church I attend is very careful NOT to tell people how to live, and instead asks them how they choose to be as good as they want to be in the way of what it is that's their faith and belief system.
They believe in the inherent worth and dignity of everyone, and the interdependent web of all existence.
Leaves a lot of wiggle room, has no creeds or doctrine, and pretty much leaves you to however you want to go about following what you believe to be right and just.
There are Catholics, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, scientists, and huimanists all coexisting just fine among each other in our congregation, and what I like MOST about it is that it's a place where I go to worship, seek answers, pursue the spiritual path I recognize, and strengthen my faith.
What a concept, huh?
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04/01/2009 04:32:51 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
While going to a church is not a "requirement", it is probably the easiest to wind up in left field when you are going it alone. |
See, that's where I have the problems.
I don't go it alone, I do what I believe it is that God tells me, NOT what someone in a pulpit with his/her own agenda wants me to buy into.
The church I attend is very careful NOT to tell people how to live, and instead asks them how they choose to be as good as they want to be in the way of what it is that's their faith and belief system.
They believe in the inherent worth and dignity of everyone, and the interdependent web of all existence.
Leaves a lot of wiggle room, has no creeds or doctrine, and pretty much leaves you to however you want to go about following what you believe to be right and just.
There are Catholics, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, scientists, and huimanists all coexisting just fine among each other in our congregation, and what I like MOST about it is that it's a place where I go to worship, seek answers, pursue the spiritual path I recognize, and strengthen my faith.
What a concept, huh? |
It's quite a concept, but not one within Christianity. Heavyj is asking about Christianity here so I just answered with that in mind.
I'm not even saying one needs to go to a church to hear what they are supposed to believe, but it seems logical that if you search with a number of people and are bouncing ideas off them, it's less likely everybody will leave the path at the same point. Having others to explore with can help prevent errors of belief. (That may honestly not even make sense to you since I'm not sure a UU even believes that an "error of belief" is possible.) |
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04/01/2009 04:39:31 PM · #13 |
To paraphrase C.S. Lewis (since I cannot remember it precisely):
The House of God has many rooms, each appointed differently, some spartan and some plush. You are free to enter each room and spend time to see if it suits you. You are free to wander the hall and look at the rooms thru the open doorways.
The Rules of the House are these: Whether in the hallway or any room, you must not disturb those in the other rooms. And you must, eventually, leave the hall and select a room.
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 16:40:17. |
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04/01/2009 04:44:18 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What a concept, huh? |
The only thing is. . .if Jesus really is the embodiment of truth, which as I mentioned, there is an unbelievable amount of hard evidence that He is, then it is a scary concept that will find alot of people thinking they are just fine when in fact, tho they live a good open-minded life accepting of any "truth" that anyone wants to believe in -- they will find themselves without a saviour, which is essential to eternal life according to Jesus.
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 16:45:55. |
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04/01/2009 04:44:57 PM · #15 |
Man, that was some pretty good memory! :)
I hope no reader will suppose that "mere" Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions-as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires andchairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think, preferable.
It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.
In plain language, the question should never be: "Do I like that kind of service?" but "Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?"
When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 16:45:36. |
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04/01/2009 04:50:41 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
While going to a church is not a "requirement", it is probably the easiest to wind up in left field when you are going it alone. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
See, that's where I have the problems.
I don't go it alone, I do what I believe it is that God tells me, NOT what someone in a pulpit with his/her own agenda wants me to buy into.
The church I attend is very careful NOT to tell people how to live, and instead asks them how they choose to be as good as they want to be in the way of what it is that's their faith and belief system.
They believe in the inherent worth and dignity of everyone, and the interdependent web of all existence.
Leaves a lot of wiggle room, has no creeds or doctrine, and pretty much leaves you to however you want to go about following what you believe to be right and just.
There are Catholics, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, scientists, and huimanists all coexisting just fine among each other in our congregation, and what I like MOST about it is that it's a place where I go to worship, seek answers, pursue the spiritual path I recognize, and strengthen my faith.
What a concept, huh? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's quite a concept, but not one within Christianity. Heavyj is asking about Christianity here so I just answered with that in mind.
I'm not even saying one needs to go to a church to hear what they are supposed to believe, but it seems logical that if you search with a number of people and are bouncing ideas off them, it's less likely everybody will leave the path at the same point. Having others to explore with can help prevent errors of belief. (That may honestly not even make sense to you since I'm not sure a UU even believes that an "error of belief" is possible.) |
Well.....though I'm probably not allowed to call myself Christian by the adherents to teh "Rules", I *DO* believe that Jesus lived and had much good to teach us. I just don't buy an awful lot of what's held to be true, yet unproveable, and have caught a fair amount of flack for merely having the audacity to question aforementioned unproveable info.
Back to.....I have a problem with much of the organized sects who have that whole "Ours is THE WAY, the ONLY way, and you'll burn in Hell if you don't listen to us.".
My only question to them is......What if you're wrong?
I have a hard time figuring out what it is that God wants from me, I certainly wouldn't presume to tell someone else how they're supposed to live as God wants them to.....and I don't want anyone to tell me what God wants from me, either, 'cause I'm pretty sure God'll tell me....or give me a hint.....8>)
I'm right up there with the OP....."my relationship with God is a personal one"
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04/01/2009 04:52:03 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What a concept, huh? |
Originally posted by SandyP:
The only thing is. . .if Jesus really is the embodiment of truth, which as I mentioned, there is an unbelievable amount of hard evidence that He is, then it is a scary concept that will find alot of people thinking they are just fine when in fact, tho they live a good open-minded life accepting of any "truth" that anyone wants to believe in -- they will find themselves without a saviour, which is essential to eternal life according to Jesus. |
I follow God's direction to the very level best of my fallible human ability.
What I want to know is who other than God can tell me how to live?
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 16:52:38.
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04/01/2009 04:53:49 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by SandyP:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What a concept, huh? |
The only thing is. . .if Jesus really is the embodiment of truth, which as I mentioned, there is an unbelievable amount of hard evidence that He is, then it is a scary concept that will find alot of people thinking they are just fine when in fact, tho they live a good open-minded life accepting of any "truth" that anyone wants to believe in -- they will find themselves without a saviour, which is essential to eternal life according to Jesus. |
Hard evidence of a person existing is hardly hard evidence of that person being divine. There is hard evidence of the Ancient Greeks existing, so by your logic, the Greek Mythos and all the deities existing within must also be fact, no? (Just to use one example.) What a person that existed claims does not mean that those claims are truth. |
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04/01/2009 04:54:39 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? |
Who answers these questions other than God?
I trust no one other than Him for my salvation.
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04/01/2009 04:58:07 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What a concept, huh? |
Originally posted by SandyP:
The only thing is. . .if Jesus really is the embodiment of truth, which as I mentioned, there is an unbelievable amount of hard evidence that He is, then it is a scary concept that will find alot of people thinking they are just fine when in fact, tho they live a good open-minded life accepting of any "truth" that anyone wants to believe in -- they will find themselves without a saviour, which is essential to eternal life according to Jesus. |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Hard evidence of a person existing is hardly hard evidence of that person being divine. There is hard evidence of the Ancient Greeks existing, so by your logic, the Greek Mythos and all the deities existing within must also be fact, no? (Just to use one example.) What a person that existed claims does not mean that those claims are truth. |
That's kind of where I am.......I have such a hard time with recorded history......it is just that, history, with no actual veracity BECAUSE of interpretation, translation, whatever situational and cultural twists that may have been applied over the last two millenia.
I would certainly not presume to be able to sift fact from fiction under all these conditions, so who is able to, and what are their qualifications?
What about divine translation? Is there such a thing?
How do *I* know what's true????
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04/01/2009 04:59:03 PM · #21 |
| The hard evidence pertains to the resurrection not just that he existed. If a man was undeniable killed and buried, then in 3 days, he is alive again and it is in historic and journalistic records by people who were not necessarily believers, then that is enough evidence in my mind to say that he is more than "just a man", and what he says is worth hearing. Not to mention the historic records of the miracles he performed while he was here. |
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04/01/2009 04:59:41 PM · #22 |
DrAchoo - that is beautiful.
I will add my two sense about "church" : Jesus told us that the truth would set us free. This is seemingly very opposite to a lot of the official doctrines of the various denominations that tend to bind and shame and hold onto members for all they're worth. "Churches" that manipulate and dictate aren't doing anybody, particularly God, any favors. Just a humble opinion. We should be, as you say, in a one-to-one relationship with the God who created us, and not in a "please save me" relationship with men in vestments.
Peace and joy in Christ, and His church.
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04/01/2009 05:02:46 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by SandyP:
The hard evidence pertains to the resurrection not just that he existed. If a man was undeniable killed and buried, then in 3 days, he is alive again and it is in historic and journalistic records by people who were not necessarily believers, then that is enough evidence in my mind to say that he is more than "just a man", and what he says is worth hearing. Not to mention the historic records of the miracles he performed while he was here. |
I think our definition of 'hard evidence' differ greatly, then. |
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04/01/2009 05:09:16 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
DrAchoo - that is beautiful.
I will add my two sense about "church" : Jesus told us that the truth would set us free. This is seemingly very opposite to a lot of the official doctrines of the various denominations that tend to bind and shame and hold onto members for all they're worth. "Churches" that manipulate and dictate aren't doing anybody, particularly God, any favors. Just a humble opinion. We should be, as you say, in a one-to-one relationship with the God who created us, and not in a "please save me" relationship with men in vestments.
Peace and joy in Christ, and His church. |
AMEN! :)
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04/01/2009 05:17:19 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
DrAchoo - that is beautiful. |
Maybe we should just recommend the OP read Mere Christianity. You can find worse places to start.
The text can actually be found here: Mere Christianity
Message edited by author 2009-04-01 17:17:34. |
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