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02/13/2009 09:22:42 AM · #101 |
| I think in commenting on the technical side (too soft, sharpened too much, too shallow of depth of field, background too noisy) you're commenting on why the photo didn't resonate with you. Some people only react positively to technically perfect photos--the probably aren't into abstract art either. |
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02/13/2009 09:26:31 AM · #102 |
This goes out to all newbies and veterans of DPC.
Rather than get bent out of shape over the whole
voting system, take a look at the "favorites" section.
If you're trying to push yourself to be a better
photographer, whether technically or aesthetically,
Take a look at your work and say to yourself "why
would someone want to make that a favorite?"
So therefore you could get a bunch of low votes,
but still get the satisfaction of knowing that
your work is evoking some kind of reaction.
Just by looking at all the different photos within
these challenges we're all learning. There doesn't
need to be a written statement with the low voting
to justify it. Take it for what it's worth.
And just for the heck of it:
Learning through seeing article. |
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02/13/2009 09:31:59 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I think in commenting on the technical side (too soft, sharpened too much, too shallow of depth of field, background too noisy) you're commenting on why the photo didn't resonate with you. Some people only react positively to technically perfect photos--the probably aren't into abstract art either. |
Yeah, but that's a slippery slope.....when you get into things that are vague (Bokeh comes to mind) then you're too much subject to interpretation and what is incorrect technically to one person, isn't to another, so what can you draw from that in the way of help?
If you're careful to express that for your tastes, it's too soft, too noisy, or the lighting/saturation/contrast doesn't work for you, fine, but I don't care to be told my image was too grainy when I upped the noise to achieve the effect that I wanted.
No matter what you do, someone'll bitch! LOL!!!
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02/13/2009 11:14:29 AM · #104 |
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02/13/2009 11:50:11 AM · #105 |
I have only entered three challenges here and so far have not done very well, for both technical reasons and lack of imagination. However I disagree on changing the voting rules. If you take away the 1 or 2 ratings for a lack of comments then you'll only narrow the gap between the best and the worst scores. They will still fall where they do now. If we aim for a score above 6 and get there by discounting 1s and 2s then a 6 is not that valuable. I love DPChallenge. I see how MY entry stacks up and how far I have to go. I consider the photographs at the top well deserved and when I get there I'll be very pleased. I still like my photographs when I submit them but hopefully DPChallenge will improve my skill along with my taste and creativity.
Message edited by author 2009-02-13 11:52:47. |
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02/14/2009 01:26:23 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by olbol:
Know what? Never occurred to me before, but I will come back to the apple competition after the vote, will look up some of the guys I marked at 1 or 2 (3 and 19 entries respectively, yeah, a bit more than advertised 5%) and see what they offered for other titles. If I see same half-arsed approach, I will feel proven, otherwise, I'll try to be more cautious. |
I think that's a fair approach as I think, judging by the comment I got from you, that I may be one of the offenders but I do not feel that I approached the topic half-arsed. |
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02/14/2009 01:45:39 AM · #107 |
| I've just been looking through the challenge scoring on DP Review. In one challenge with 199 entries only the top 6 scored as above average (2.75 or above). Even worse, there is no option to leave comments on entries meaning that 97% of entrants will score below average and have absolutely no idea why! |
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02/14/2009 07:20:44 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by bcenu:
You guys are getting a little off the subject here, although all opinions are noteworthy, but my point of starting this thread is that I, and many other newer members to this site, could not give a rat's a@*e if we get a 1 vote, but the reason why would be a big help in explaining and maybe helping the improvement in the quality of our submissions.
Too many times people who are scoring well and think they have a reasonably popular shot (due to a good average vote) get shot down with a 1 out of the blue with no reason given. This is the bane of many posters during the Current Challenge forums.
It may be due to a number of different reasons, discussed earlier in this thread, but they are the voter's reasons and if I am to improve I would like to be advised as to why they are voting this way.
If it is to boost their own score or just to piss people off I guess we will never hear from them.
As I point, I normally comment on the lowest scores I give first because I figure the better scores, if I don't get time to comment on them, know they have a good shot as indicated by the higher votes they accumulate. |
Everyone in here is judging and scoring according to their own personal sets of reasonings. There is only personal tastes to judge it by. To try to match everyone's personal tastes is an impossibility. Trying to do so, is only setting yourself up for a fall because you'll be tailoring your form of photography to suit what wins in here. However, what wins in here, doesn't necessarily make it in other venues. What gets voted a 1 in here, may score a win, prize or 1st place elsewhere.
As someone else has said in this thread, earlier on, those who want to learn, do so through side challenges, thread discussions and from other members whose work they admire. THAT is where one truly learns. The challenge scores are "tainted" by all sorts of different criteria.
There are members in here who are earning a living with their photography and yet, can't score above a 5 very often in the challenges. There are members in here who have never done much at all with their photography or, those who have never even entered a challenge but, are sitting, judging YOUR work and handing out a score to your work. There are those who have all of the latest equipment and higher priced cameras and fully know how to use it and others who are just starting out with a point and shoot camera and nothing else. THEY are handing out scores to you as well. There are ranges and reasons so varied that to judge your photography, according to these scores or even according to their comments, is really only setting one up to become more confused than ever over your own style of photography.
Technicals can be learned. That's where the side challenges and the discussion threads and other members can offer their knowledge and can help us to learn. Creativity is subjective and can't be taught. It's something that comes from within. Tips can help but, again, that's not learned in the mainstream challenges. That is also better left for side challenges or other members whose work you admire.
In short, the mainstream challenges are a game. They are not to be taken seriously as a judge of your ability, talent or merit as a photographer. Please don't fall into that trap.
For what it's worth...I have debated many times to bring back the idea of having that 1 to 3 vote scorer have to give a reason why they are voting it a 1 to 3. I've maintained that through personal experience (when I first started here), it made me stop and think about a shot more fully. Did it really deserve a 1 to 3 score? That's made me re-think my score. If I truly felt that it deserved a 1 to 3 score (ie: it was a DNMC or a really poor quality photo, totally out of focus or perhaps, one that I felt was an intentional snub entry like a black box) then, I gave my reason and gave it that score. However, I also recognized that it stopped people from habitually scoring 1's to 3's, without some hassle in doing so. At that time, it wasn't mandatory as you could click off of that box but, it did make me stop and think more about the photo first! That, however has been shot down several times by saying "it's annoying". I would think that the only one's it's annoying to are the ones who love to hand out the 1's and 2's to the majority of shots in a challenge. No one should feel the need to hand out that many 1's, 2's or 3's in any challenge in my opinion but, there are those who have begged to differ. :(
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02/14/2009 07:33:43 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by molinski4611:
This goes out to all newbies and veterans of DPC.
Rather than get bent out of shape over the whole
voting system, take a look at the "favorites" section.
If you're trying to push yourself to be a better
photographer, whether technically or aesthetically,
Take a look at your work and say to yourself "why
would someone want to make that a favorite?"
So therefore you could get a bunch of low votes,
but still get the satisfaction of knowing that
your work is evoking some kind of reaction.
Just by looking at all the different photos within
these challenges we're all learning. There doesn't
need to be a written statement with the low voting
to justify it. Take it for what it's worth.
And just for the heck of it:
Learning through seeing article. |
Very true...but, remember too that there are all kinds of styles of photography. There is a mainstream favorite look in here. True Street Photography, for example isn't especially well embraced by voters in DPC. So, that's a dangerous curve to get onto as well. If one is only wanting to do well in DPC challenges and nowhere else, then yes, that is a totally viable way of learning to achieve the higher scores. However, if one is wanting to learn to better themselves all the way around as a photographer, learning technicals and usage of photography equipment can be learned through the challenges but, you may be sacrificing other styles of photography or developing your own style by focusing solely on achieving what does well in here. Diversity and trial with all styles of photography is going to be what makes you a well rounded photographer....whether it does well in here or not. :) |
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02/14/2009 11:13:09 PM · #110 |
Alright, I read this thread a few days, and decided to mull over my concept of the opposing views. On one hand, you have people who feel that because you vote someone a 1 or 2, you should comment on why you feel their photo fell short. And on the other hand, you have people who feel they should have the right to vote whatever number they wish without leaving a comment because some lousy shots do not even warrant the respect of a critique.
After careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that both sides are right. If you leave a 1 or a 2 for a vote, you should comment... but if the submission is so insufferable, without any thought, talent, or creativity, then no comment should be warranted.
So what to do??? If both sides are right??? Well it breaks down like this. I have to say that my vote is to leave it the way it is. Here is why. If you force people to leave a comment for voting a 1 or a 2, chances are, the comment they are going to leave, is not going to be one that helps the photographer to actually learn anything from. After all, that is the reason behind leaving a comment, or at least it should be. On my latest challenge, I had someone leave a comment on my photo telling me it was a good macro, but my title distracted from the photo. That is something that I never thought of, I need to pay more attention to the title. That was a great comment because #1) the person was not forced to leave it and 2) I learned something from it... If you force people to leave comments, you are going to end up inevitably with comments that are condescending, uninformative, and forced.
Having said that, the great and all powerful Oz has spoken. Which to everyone in the world but my dog, means absolutely nothing. Anyway, I encourage everyone who has developed talent in photography to leave comments on photos that they consider to be sub-par. I am somewhat shy about leaving comments because quite honestly, I am new to the world of photography, took it up in May of 08, so I am not the best judge of how someone could improve, because I myself am learning as I go, and am relying on comments from people who are well versed in the world of photography. So in other words, experts... leave comments... and mods... don't force them too... and all will be well. |
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02/15/2009 08:36:16 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by Sirashley:
I am somewhat shy about leaving comments because quite honestly, I am new to the world of photography, took it up in May of 08, so I am not the best judge of how someone could improve, because I myself am learning as I go, and am relying on comments from people who are well versed in the world of photography. ... |
Encourage yourself to leave comments anyway. Even if you don't have unlimited technical expertise, you are still the world expert on how you react to an image. Boil that down to the specifics: "I am enjoying ..." a particular aspect of the image or "I am not enjoying ..." another aspect, and do so honestly. Think about composition, lines, repetition, focus, depth of field, emotions, literary allusions, color, contrast, framing, exposure, meaning, motion, complexity, simplicity, originality, ... and whatever else matters. Doing this will force you to pay closer attention to what makes any image more or less appealing for you. Like magic, you will notice more about your own images, even as you compose them. For me, that has been an excellent way to accelerate learning, even though my brain sometimes feels stretched doing this exercise. |
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02/15/2009 09:22:39 AM · #112 |
| Definitely leave a comment, even if you feel you don't have the expertise. I think photographers get into the habit of thinking what *should* make a good photograph. (it has great diagonal, offset leading lines--isn't it wonderful!) Yet to someone else, they're superfluous and distracting. A truly great photograph appeals to everyone, not just people with huge amounts of experience. |
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02/15/2009 09:26:23 AM · #113 |
Maybe giving the voter a guideline while they vote would help place your cursor on a rating 1-10
You need to have an account to vote.
When you pass your cursor over a number you see the following
1 - VERY POOR - (There is a brief description for each rating)
2 - POOR
3 - NEEDS CONSIDERABLE IMPROVEMENT
4 - BELOW AVERAGE
5 - AVERAGE
6 - ABOVE AVERAGE
7 - VERY GOOD
8 - EXTREMLY GOOD
9 - EXCELLENT
10 - PERFECTION
Message edited by author 2009-02-15 10:00:24. |
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02/15/2009 12:31:45 PM · #114 |
| Wow Bob, you know, I never thought of leaving comments in that respect but it totally makes sense. I'm going to start doing that from now on, I started commenting on some of the apple challenge photos last night and you are right. I think by commenting, it can help me to get a better feel for my own photography, and how I can improve. Thanks for the advice :) |
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02/15/2009 01:29:22 PM · #115 |
| Commenting has been one of the strongest learning experiences for me. There may be some people that upon getting your comment will look at your average and blow it off. That is their prerogative to interpret the comments and weigh them. Sometimes you may leave a critique on an aspect of the shot that they like. sometimes critiques will be in conflict with each other, especially regarding composition. |
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02/15/2009 01:30:26 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by wdamman:
4 - BELOW AVERAGE
5 - AVERAGE
6 - ABOVE AVERAGE
7 - VERY GOOD
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Very good idea, but 5.5 is average making 5 below average and 6 above average.
Mentally a lot of voters see an 'average' image and give it a 5. Others see an 'average' image and decide whether to give a 5 or 6. |
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02/15/2009 01:45:08 PM · #117 |
Ok, the low votes on lousy pictures isn't much of an issue here. The low votes on photos average a 6 or higher is ridiculous. How about a comment being mandatory if you are giving a score of 4 or more points lower than the pictures current average. If you are giving a significantly different vote than the majority of the people, it would be helpful to know your reasoning. It may be a perfectly valid reason--but since it's so unusual, it would be worth knowing.
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02/15/2009 01:59:17 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, the low votes on lousy pictures isn't much of an issue here. The low votes on photos average a 6 or higher is ridiculous. How about a comment being mandatory if you are giving a score of 4 or more points lower than the pictures current average. If you are giving a significantly different vote than the majority of the people, it would be helpful to know your reasoning. It may be a perfectly valid reason--but since it's so unusual, it would be worth knowing. |
I think it may stop people voting if they have to leave a comment for certain scores.
As a comparison DPR challenges average around 40 votes per entrant and there is NO commenting. |
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02/15/2009 02:31:57 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Ok, the low votes on lousy pictures isn't much of an issue here. The low votes on photos average a 6 or higher is ridiculous. How about a comment being mandatory if you are giving a score of 4 or more points lower than the pictures current average. If you are giving a significantly different vote than the majority of the people, it would be helpful to know your reasoning. It may be a perfectly valid reason--but since it's so unusual, it would be worth knowing. |
From my perspective, the problem with this is it serves to reinforce the herd mentality. Let me explain why:
Let's examine the case of "Voter X", who thinks that the most important element in scoring should be originality, creativity, elements like that. Voter X is very consistent, but he gives really low scores to what he considers to be derivative works, no matter how well they are executed. He has almost never given a score higher than 4 or 5 to what turned out to be the eventual ribboners, and frequently he has scored them 3 or less. Aesthetically, he marches to the beat of a different drummer than most DPCers do.
Now, I'd like to assume that you have NO quarrel with this voter, that you agree he has the absolute right to follow his own aesthetic in his voting. But even so, you are basically opining that this voter, *because* he is out of step with the DPC consensus, should be saddled with an *obligation* to explain his votes. To open himself up for criticism and even possibly ostracism, because he's not in lockstep. Not only that, you're asking that he be *required* to do his commenting on images that he has no interest in. See?
Meanwhile, the really weak images, the ones that are scoring in the low 4's and the high 3's, well THESE images NOBODY Is giving a vote that's "more than 4" off the consensus, basically, so NOBODY is *required* to comment on those?
End result: if you don't fit into the herd, you're forced to expose yourself, to justify your aesthetic position.
NOT a good idea, IMO. Well-intended, but not a good idea.
R.
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02/15/2009 02:36:10 PM · #120 |
| I'm going on the assumption (probably faulty) that all votes are valid votes. I'm just trying to figure out why my picture got two 1's this time around. Assuming that the votes were real, it makes me extremely curious! Inquiring minds and all that. |
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02/15/2009 02:52:24 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I'm going on the assumption (probably faulty) that all votes are valid votes. I'm just trying to figure out why my picture got two 1's this time around. Assuming that the votes were real, it makes me extremely curious! Inquiring minds and all that. |
My attitude: in the end it's not really important, if it's only a couple real low votes. I just accept that some people are interested in what I'm doing, for whatever reason, and I'm not trying to target my images at those people anyway. For example, when I do heavily tone-mapped work I get quite a few low votes even on high-scoring images, and I just assume these voters don't like that kind of photography. No explanation needed, basically, from my perspective. And on images that I get a LOT of low votes, I can pretty much figure out myself that they just aren't working for a lot of people, right?
In fact, I usually know going in that this is gonna happen, like with lensbaby shots, for example. A whole LOT of people just don't *like" blurry photographs, and who am I to argue with that? :-)
R.
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02/15/2009 02:56:13 PM · #122 |
I've received 17- 1's in the 4 challenges I have entered. This bothered me at first but not anymore. Sure I would like to break into the top 10 sometime, but what I appreciate most are the comments, few and far between, that indicate one of my photos have had an impact on someone. I really don't believe that a truly great photo appeals to everyone. To me, this photo is great (not mine) -->  but the majority didn't think so. When I need a lift, I join a side challenge. A bit of a love-fest sometimes, but plenty of creativity and good feedback there. I think most voters vote from the gut, which can be hard to explain sometimes.
Message edited by author 2009-02-15 22:03:54. |
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02/15/2009 06:32:59 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by wdamman:
Maybe giving the voter a guideline while they vote would help place your cursor on a rating 1-10
You need to have an account to vote.
When you pass your cursor over a number you see the following
1 - VERY POOR - (There is a brief description for each rating)
2 - POOR
3 - NEEDS CONSIDERABLE IMPROVEMENT
4 - BELOW AVERAGE
5 - AVERAGE
6 - ABOVE AVERAGE
7 - VERY GOOD
8 - EXTREMLY GOOD
9 - EXCELLENT
10 - PERFECTION |
I don't know if this is still the case but when I was active over there a while back everyone would just vote in the 7-10 range regardless of quality of the photo.
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02/15/2009 06:39:45 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by tph1:
I've received 17- 1's in the 4 challenges I have entered. This bothered me at first but not anymore. Sure I would like to break into the top 10 sometime, but what I appreciate most are the comments, few and far between, that indicate one of my photos have had an impact on someone. I really don't believe that a truly great photo appeals to everyone. To me, this photo is great --> but the majority didn't think so. When I need a lift, I join a side challenge. A bit of a love-fest sometimes, but plenty of creativity and good feedback there. I think most voters vote from the gut, which can be hard to explain sometimes. |
I like the picture, very much! |
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02/15/2009 06:54:22 PM · #125 |
I have enjoyed reading some very thoughtful comments in this thread & after mulling it over, I came to this conclusion:
A 1-2-3 vote is a 'neh' vote. Do I really care why the voter had a 'neh' reaction to my shot? Nope, I don't care. They didn't like it. I don't care why.
The people I really want to hear from are the people who vote 8-9-10. These votes are much more rare & I am dying to know why you liked my shot well enough to give it such a high vote.
I don't respond well to negative reinforcement. If I had to be immersed in criticism here, or always give out criticism, I wouldn't stay. I want to know what it was about the photo that got to you in a positive way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for vapid praise. "Nice shot!" is not going to give me the information I need about what it was about the shot that made you decide to give it a higher vote.
Since that's what I want, that's what I'm gonna start dishing out. Thoughtful appreciation. |
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