Mormonism - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

02/26/2008 02:40:38 PM · #26

Here's a simple question (not letting you guys off the hook for my tougher questions above):

Which texts are important? There are so many Mormon texts that I'm never clear on which are felt to be holy and which are merely Mormons expositing on their faith. I know the Book of Mormon is considered holy as is the Bible (KJV). I believe Pearl of Great Price is also and Doctrines and Covenants (although I'm not quite as sure there), but how about things like "Articles of Faith" or other writings of past Presidents?

drewbixcube

Canon EOS-7D

02/26/2008 03:09:17 PM · #27

I will be watching this thread, as just yesterday a local radio host did an hour special with a previous president of the ex-mormon group (previously linked in this thread). He explained being raised Mormon, graduating from BYU, and then having his faith questioned in graduate school. In his research to back up his beliefs he started poking holes in Mormonism and eventually decided to leave the faith. It was a very interesting show, and I am with Doc in always wanting to learn more..after all, life is too short to believe the wrong religion ;-)

I hope this thread stays civil and on track, and hopefully I can contribute some questions when they crop up in my head.

A short answer to Doc's last question about writings was given yesterday on the radio. Some of the papers and books (sorry I don't remember specifics) written by LDS prophets and presidents are considered their views, not the official views. It was equated to a catholic priest or cardinal giving opinions, that don't exactly line up with the sayings of the pope or catholic church.

edit:spelling

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 15:10:56.

hihosilver

Nikon D200

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

02/26/2008 03:11:32 PM · #28

Upfront I will say that I have no weight to add in this discussion and you may regard this comment as directly from the peanut gallery.

However, I always find how people align themselves with organized religion (including such curious and rather cultist aspects like plural marriage) endlessly fascinating as an expression of how people apply religious concepts into practical reality and their every day lifestyle. Inquiring minds want to know...and I'd definitely be interested to learn more about Mormonism as a whole and its evolution to thrive within our world.

Thank you,

DrAchoo. I added this thread to my watch list and I'm looking forward to seeing how your questions are answered and how it will all unfold (unless it turns into a religious rant...YIKES!). Then, I won't stay for the burning and pillaging...;-)

StevePax

Canon PowerShot S50

02/26/2008 03:14:05 PM · #29

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'll jump on this one, I guess. I haven't posted here in ages!

Like any other church, there are lots and lots of writings out there, many by prominent and official church leaders. However, the official set of "canonized" scripture is the Bilble (both Old and New Testaments), the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. The "Articles of Faith" you mention are actually included as well, and are part of either the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price (I honestly forget which, since my personal copy has them all bound together in a single volume). All other writings could be considered peripheral to these. However, it's also very important to note that the prophet and president of the Church is considered very much a prophet just as Moses or Isaiah were in the Bible, so his teachings as an official prophet of God should be taken as equal to the scriptures, as well as that of past prophets and presidents of the church.

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 15:14:57.

02/26/2008 03:23:30 PM · #30

Originally posted by StevePax:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Here's a simple question (not letting you guys off the hook for my tougher questions above):

Which texts are important? There are so many Mormon texts that I'm never clear on which are felt to be holy and which are merely Mormons expositing on their faith. I know the Book of Mormon is considered holy as is the Bible (KJV). I believe Pearl of Great Price is also and Doctrines and Covenants (although I'm not quite as sure there), but how about things like "Articles of Faith" or other writings of past Presidents?

I'll jump on this one, I guess. I haven't posted here in ages!

Like any other church, there are lots and lots of writings out there, many by prominent and official church leaders. However, the official set of "canonized" scripture is the Bilble (both Old and New Testaments), the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. The "Articles of Faith" you mention are actually included as well, and are part of either the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price (I honestly forget which, since my personal copy has them all bound together in a single volume). All other writings could be considered peripheral to these. However, it's also very important to note that the prophet and president of the Church is considered very much a prophet just as Moses or Isaiah were in the Bible, so his teachings as an official prophet of God should be taken as equal to the scriptures, as well as that of past prophets and presidents of the church.

Thanks for that answer. It's helpful, although I still get lost in all the stuff.

What happens when one text contradicts another? Is there a hierarchy of importance?

I'm still not letting people off my questions above. Someone go up and answer them... :)

02/26/2008 03:31:25 PM · #31

Hello,
I joined the Mormon church 30 years ago, after years of studying different faiths and belief systems. My own father was a Nazarene minister for 50 years. I can only speak of what I believe and have discovered, not what "we" or "they" believe. The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling and that is what I have done over the years of my lifetime. When I investigated the Mormon church, I found something happening within me, something good. I can only say after MUCH study, prayer and fasting, I had a powerful spiritual experience within myself and many questions were answered. I have determined that we will never find the answers to all our questions and just because one group believes a certain way doesn't mean it is right for another individual. There are still some things about the Mormon group that I don't understand, but after comparing it to all the others faith or religious groups I studied, this one was one I felt most at home with. I think some people in all faiths will attain to heaven or the next lifetime. Paul said he went into the 3rd heaven, which indicates to me that there must be more than one level. I have never been sealed in the temple, mainly because I haven't come across a Mormon man that I felt I wanted to be sealed to for eternity (perhaps that is yet to happen) and also because I have no other family other than my children that are members of this church. But I don't believe that will keep me out of the place I belong after this life on earth. I certainly believe that my salvation lies in the hands (and blood) of Jesus Christ, but I can't be a sheep that just follows the leader without some intelligent thought. I've just rambled on to say for me, the Mormon faith has helped me along the way.

DrAchoo, there are many, many texts from the past and some yet to be discovered. It's up to the individual to read and study and decide. Just because someone says it is God's word, doesn't mean it is so. And believe me, I have read and studied, but still cannot tell another person, "This is truth and that is not." I can only know what is right for me.

02/26/2008 03:37:24 PM · #32

Originally posted by classycam:

I have determined that we will never find the answers to all our questions and just because one group believes a certain way doesn't mean it is right for another individual.

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

02/26/2008 03:43:51 PM · #33

Originally posted by Zeuss:

Hereâ��s some interesting facts about Christianity in general:

Scholars suggest that the Jesus story is borrowed from other religions. Pagan mythical parallels can be found for almost every item in the New Testament: the Last Supper, Peter's denial, Pilate's wife's dream, the crown of thorns, the vinegar and gall at the crucifixion, the mocking inscription over the cross, the Passion, the trial, Pilate's washing of hands, the carrying of the cross, the talk between the two thieves hanging beside Jesus, and so on. There were many crucified sun gods before Jesus. There was the crucifixion of Antigonus, the "King of the Jews," and Cyrus, a Messianic figure. Prometheus and Heracles wear mock crowns, and in some versions of the story, Prometheus is executed by crucifixion. Babylonian prisoners dressed as kings for five days, then they were stripped, scourged, and crucified. I can give you the parallels of Buddha, Horus of Egypt, Mithra, Krishna of India, Prometheus of Greece, and others, making any research of Biblical passages a waste of time.

With these facts known, Christianity is becoming suspect of a fraud. Maybe we should also discuss the Council of Nicea where this committee got together to decide whom they would adopt as their savior, which gospels were to be recognized, and which were to be discarded. The votes were not unanimous.

These myths violate natural law, contradict science, and fail to correspond with reality or logic. You might be more wise to spend your time learning how to separate truth from fantasy.

There may very well be a god. But be cautious of any religion. They are all man made and they serve that manâ��s purposes.

I do agree with the above. If I followed only my logic, I think I would be crazy by now. Even if all religions are myth, they satisfy some need that most people have to serve something beyond themselves. When I purchase a car, I study the different brands and ask the dealer about the one it sells. I don't go to Ford to ask about Chevrolet. That's just a simple example but I believe it applies to searching for a personal religion or group. Some people don't need it, but some people do. Some religions have done extreme damage and harm to civilization. Again, every person needs to read, study, ponder and go within to find the answers.

hihosilver

Nikon D200

02/26/2008 04:01:59 PM · #34

Originally posted by classycam:

Again, every person needs to read, study, ponder and go within to find the answers.

Although never one to disregard the words of the wise, I find this response somewhat cryptic. So, while I'm sitting here in the peanut gallery, I can't help but wonder what external guidelines did you internalized and align within yourself from the Mormon religion that revealed the benefits of driving the Porche over the Ferrari (to use your own automobile analogy)?

(Personally, I think everyone should ride a horse and save on gas!...;-)...)

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

02/26/2008 04:11:09 PM · #35

Faith and Works:

For Mormons, salvation is ultimately dependent upon faith (in Jesus Christ and God -- aka, "Heavenly Father" -- which are believed to be two separate and distinct holy beings), the confession and forgiveness of sins (although this is not formalized, such as in the Catholic religion), and the expression of this faith in the actions and conduct of the believer (aka "works"). One must also be baptized and confirmed, either in this life or by proxy after death. The core idea behind the Mormon conception of faith and works is that neither can exist truthfully or meaningfully without the other. The person of true faith will be motivated to works in tune with that faith and against works that are in conflict.

Note that having a temple recommend is not some "get into heaven security id badge." Being "temple worthy" is important to church members because the ordinances that members complete in the temple embody the heart of the Mormon expression of faith and practice. The temple recommend is designed not so much to keep temple rites secret as to ensure that only members in good standing have access to the temples, thereby keeping access to these rituals limited to those who are most likely to respect and honor the sacred nature of these rites to the Mormon religion. Here is a good, quick page on temple ordinances.

Sacred Texts

It is also important to note that Mormons don't have as much of a problem with ambiguity in scripture as some fundamentalist religions, since Mormonism does not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible since it is acknowledged to have been a work of men (albeit inspired by God) that has been subject to multiple interpretations, translations, and such as it has moved through history. The King James version of the Bible is considered to be the most accurate version of the Bible, but is still not meant to be considered a literal, historical text. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is to be considered a literal, historical text because it is supposed to be a direct -- and angelically assisted -- translation of a directly inspired work chronicling the history of Christ's appearance on the North American continent. This all with a caveat that the current evangelical tide sweeping American religion has been affecting Mormonism as well, and the current church is much more fundamentalist than the Mormon church of my youth.

May I suggest that if Mormon practices seem outlandish in any way, it is simply because they are not familiar to you. Mormon faith and practice holds some novelty when compared with mainstream Christian practice, but the rites and beliefs are really fairly mundane and, ultimately, not that different from practices of many other Christian faiths.

option

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

02/26/2008 04:19:21 PM · #36

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Hey Zeuss

Jesus?

02/26/2008 04:26:45 PM · #37

Hey! Thanks for the reply. I appreciate you speaking from your heart. Let me push you a little on what you mean in the sentence above? Are you saying that attaining the Celestial Heaven is not for everybody or that there is more than one way to attain it?

Your willingness to question your authorities also strikes me as uncommon among LDS. Isn't that risking excommunication? I was reading some of Brigham Young's work and he was pretty much in line with the idea of "never question your leaders and the church" and if you do you are risking apostacy. Do you think you are unusual among LDS members? [/quote]

Yes, I''m saying it isn't for everyone and not everyone would be happy there. Aha, you're right........I am most uncommon. I don't know what lies beyond this lifetime other than what I have seen "spiritually" (and I have seen some things. But some people would call that a psychological mishap ;) ) The Bible speaks of the glory of the three different kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial) but doesn't go into detail. The details come from the LDS teachings. "They" say you have to do certain things to attain it. But as a lowly peon, I don't know. It seems to stand to reason and my internal truth scope doesn't tell me it is false. I would like to go to the highest degree out there, but that is up to the higher powers. And as I once told one of the leaders, "In order to go to the Celestial Kingdom, if I have to spend eternity with a man I don't particularly enjoy, just because he's my husband, then I don't want to go there." Of course he was shocked, but he didn't accuse me of apostasy.

As a child growing up in a minister's home, I often questioned things about the Bible. And my father always told me the same thing, "You don't question." Well, I'm sure it's because he couldn't answer the questions. I believe God gave me my questioning mind for a reason. After studying the LDS teachings, many of them rang true to me so I embraced them. However, if the prophet of the church told me to drink cool-aid, I wouldn't drink it unless I understood why. And yes, they would probably excommunicate me, to my advantage in that particular situation. Actually, I spoke to the Bishop of my ward concerning these things recently and he was a very understanding man. He explained things that I already believed. He said even when the Israelites were wandering in the desert, there were certain people who were spiritual enough to know they didn't need all those rituals, but that the majority of them needed it in order to learn to live a certain way, for their own progression. And today, we still have people who need to hang on to every word their leaders speak. I have learned that my internal guidance (some call it the Holy Spirit) is right on for me and I could leave the Mormon church (by choice or otherwise) and still maintain my spiritual peace. Many LDS members would totally disagree with that. But coming in as a convert is so different than being born into the church and being taught all your life as to what you should believe. I have met Mormons that believed simply because they grew up in it and had never questioned anything. I do love the church and its members as a whole and feel a wonderful spirit when I am in their presence. I do believe that it is set up the way it should be as the church of Jesus Christ. Many members can answer your questions and quote sources, but like I said, I can only tell you what is within. Anyone who really wants to know about LDS belief systems should talk to the missionaries, even they are often young and naive. I can tell you what they believe, but it's easier to tell you what is in me. You know, I just might be excommunicated when some of the LDS people read this. :) But I don't really think so.

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 16:44:21.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

02/26/2008 04:41:16 PM · #38

Originally posted by hihosilver:

Originally posted by classycam:
Again, every person needs to read, study, ponder and go within to find the answers.

Although never one to disregard the words of the wise, I find this response somewhat cryptic. So, while I'm sitting here in the peanut gallery, I can't help but wonder what external guidelines did you internalized and align within yourself from the Mormon religion that revealed the benefits of driving the Porche over the Ferrari (to use your own automobile analogy)?

(Personally, I think everyone should ride a horse and save on gas!...;-)...)

Hey, I agree, that's why I have two horses and a donkey!! I could go on for hours on this subject, but don't want to come across preachy. Like I said, I fasted and prayed and had become a minister myself. Internally, I was touched by the Holy Spirit who revealed to me in a powerful way that Jesus Christ is actually a real, alive being and that the teachings I received from studying the the LDS faith were true. After joining the church, I came across things I didn't like or believe, but that is true in all churches. However I guess the hum of the Porche engine, the shifting of gears and the feel of that fine leather won me over. ;)

cheekymunky

Canon EOS-40D

02/26/2008 04:42:36 PM · #39

Originally posted by option:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Hey Zeuss

Jesus?

LOL - that has made my day

02/26/2008 04:45:09 PM · #40

Shutterpuppy,
That was a great explanation.

02/26/2008 04:54:07 PM · #41

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

May I suggest that if Mormon practices seem outlandish in any way, it is simply because they are not familiar to you. Mormon faith and practice holds some novelty when compared with mainstream Christian practice, but the rites and beliefs are really fairly mundane and, ultimately, not that different from practices of many other Christian faiths.

Well, I'm not sure. The more I become familiar with them, the more I think they are quite different from mainstream Christianity. The idea of exaltation seems antithetical to my own beliefs. Outside Mormonism, I have never, ever heard that God was man before becoming God or that we can progress to Godhood (or whatever description you want there). In fact, there seem to be lots of passages in the Bible which seem to contradict this. And here is where things get sticky. When I talk to missionaries who come to my door and ask how the Book of Mormon stands besides the Bible, the answer is always they are different revelations of the same ideas. The Bible is presented as standing equal to the Book of Mormon. Only when pushed will they tell me that's not really the case. Why do they present it one way and then change when I ask questions? When I specifically ask, "Does the Book of Mormon reveal thruths that the Bible does not?" the answer is always "no" other than the historical data which is not contained in the Bible. Maybe these are young kids doing their best and giving me incorrect answers, but it seems fairly consistent in responses I get and I don't quite know what to do with that information.

@ classycam : Here is a text which you may or may not be familiar with. I was reading it on the lds.org library site. It's is Preventing Personal Apostacy as taught by Brigham Young. The second section paints a slightly less cheery picture than you do. What gives? Are you comfortable with this?

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 16:54:30.

02/26/2008 05:10:54 PM · #42

@ classycam : Here is a text which you may or may not be familiar with. I was reading it on the lds.org library site. It's is Preventing Personal Apostacy as taught by Brigham Young. The second section paints a slightly less cheery picture than you do. What gives? Are you comfortable with this? [/quote]

I do understand how you feel, by the way. I am familiar with the above. And yes, I am comfortable. I don't serve God out of fear, but out of a deep love that makes me want to please HIM, not man, with a desire to progress and develop spiritually. Sometimes we can't do that by following the "letter of the law." I do realize I don't think like most Mormons or even Christians. But no one, NO ONE, can force a person to believe something unless the person chooses to or simply doesn't have the brain power to think.

02/26/2008 05:14:56 PM · #43

Originally posted by classycam:

I do understand how you feel, by the way. I am familiar with the above. And yes, I am comfortable. I don't serve God out of fear, but out of a deep love that makes me want to please HIM, not man, with a desire to progress and develop spiritually. Sometimes we can't do that by following the "letter of the law." I do realize I don't think like most Mormons or even Christians. But no one, NO ONE, can force a person to believe something unless the person chooses to or simply doesn't have the brain power to think. [/quote]

We're probably more alike than different. I ask lots of questions within my own faith and it sometimes (read: often) makes people a bit uncomfortable. But I do it to know what I believe. Already you seem different than most Mormons I've known. I think it's to your own benefit. However, personally, I would be uncomfortable with a leadership who says so bluntly, "you cannot question us".

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

02/26/2008 05:17:07 PM · #44

I'm just going to do a little recap of questions I've asked which have been passed over. People can feel free to bite off a chunk:

"My final question would be then whether you live with the great fear that you cannot live up to the standard set before you? What makes you think you are "good enough" for the Celestial realm and not at risk of losing your status by the shabby things we all tend to do? And what if that standard suddenly changes? In the mid to late 1800s the standard included plural marriage. It no longer does, but that tells me that perhaps 5 years from now the standard could be different from where it currently stands. Isn't this frightening? "

And another which I only recently posted:
"Well, I'm not sure. The more I become familiar with them (Mormon practices), the more I think they are quite different from mainstream Christianity. The idea of exaltation seems antithetical to my own beliefs. Outside Mormonism, I have never, ever heard that God was man before becoming God or that we can progress to Godhood (or whatever description you want there). In fact, there seem to be lots of passages in the Bible which seem to contradict this. And here is where things get sticky. When I talk to missionaries who come to my door and ask how the Book of Mormon stands besides the Bible, the answer is always they are different revelations of the same ideas. The Bible is presented as standing equal to the Book of Mormon. Only when pushed will they tell me that's not really the case. Why do they present it one way and then change when I ask questions? When I specifically ask, "Does the Book of Mormon reveal thruths that the Bible does not?" the answer is always "no" other than the historical data which is not contained in the Bible. Maybe these are young kids doing their best and giving me incorrect answers, but it seems fairly consistent in responses I get and I don't quite know what to do with that information. "

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 17:17:47.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

02/26/2008 05:18:20 PM · #45

Fascinating thread with great answers and questions. Doc I hope you don't feel this is hijacking and forgive me if you do. I have seen the term "Sealed" being used here and I am assuming it is a term that represents marriage in the Morman religion and the eternal binding together of individuals(please correct me if I'm wrong). What happens if individuals who are sealed together decide to seperate or divorce? Is there an unsealing or is there something that is similar to what catholicism has with annulments. Just a matter of curiosity and thanks for any answers. Trevor~

ShaneBlake

Nikon D7100

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

02/26/2008 05:19:40 PM · #46

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

if i may, i'm going to have to respectfully take exception to this assertion. many of the practices of mormonism would be (are) considered apostasy by nearly all orthodox christian faiths. baptism for the dead, polygamy (though no longer practiced), blood atonement (though no longer accepted), being eternally sealed to spouse and family, the "spirit brotherhood" of satan, the additional scriptures and revelations, becoming a "god" of a "spiritual" planet, the rejection of the trinitarian view of God, Christ, and Holy Spirit...

just the ones off the top of my head, and please understand that i'm not trying to be judgemental in regards to these practices, but you can see that these teachings are quite a bit different in the other Christian faiths.

for a good civil discourse, we need to be honest about both our genuine similarities and our differences.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

02/26/2008 05:22:25 PM · #47

Trevor,
Yes, sealing is a binding for eternity and they can be unsealed if both parties agree to it.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

02/26/2008 05:23:33 PM · #48

Originally posted by classycam:

Trevor,
Yes, sealing is a binding for eternity and they can be unsealed if both parties agree to it.

Thanks!

02/26/2008 05:25:21 PM · #49

Here's a question for everyone: Since there are many polygamist groups out there and in the news lately, along with the TV show, Big Love, don't you all think polygamy will become legal again someday? This question is out of curiosity, not from my belief system. ;)