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02/26/2008 10:12:00 PM · #76
Originally posted by Zeuss:

...Were the animals loaded into the arc in 2's, or 7's? It says both.


Of every clean animal God commanded Noah to take in by 7 ( One male and females) along with the fowls of the air. Unclean animals he was commanded to take in by 2's (Male and female).

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Reference KJB - Genesis 7: 2-3

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 22:15:37.
02/26/2008 10:14:15 PM · #77
Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

May I suggest that if Mormon practices seem outlandish in any way, it is simply because they are not familiar to you. Mormon faith and practice holds some novelty when compared with mainstream Christian practice, but the rites and beliefs are really fairly mundane and, ultimately, not that different from practices of many other Christian faiths.


if i may, i'm going to have to respectfully take exception to this assertion. many of the practices of mormonism would be (are) considered apostasy by nearly all orthodox christian faiths. baptism for the dead, polygamy (though no longer practiced), blood atonement (though no longer accepted), being eternally sealed to spouse and family, the "spirit brotherhood" of satan, the additional scriptures and revelations, becoming a "god" of a "spiritual" planet, the rejection of the trinitarian view of God, Christ, and Holy Spirit...

just the ones off the top of my head, and please understand that i'm not trying to be judgemental in regards to these practices, but you can see that these teachings are quite a bit different in the other Christian faiths.

for a good civil discourse, we need to be honest about both our genuine similarities and our differences.


Your point is taken, and there certainly are some very real and distinct differences in belief between Mormonism and mainstream Christian denominations. That said, I do find that often people underestimate how strange even mainstream Christian belief is, when viewed from arms length. By way of example: 1) the Catholic belief in the literal transformation of wine and wafer of the sacrament in to the blood and flesh of Christ; 2) the apostolic practice of speaking in tongues; 3) the concept (shared by Mormons) of the virgin birth of Christ; 4) and don't forget the rapture - the belief that at some time appointed by God all the good little boys and girls and adults will be instantly whooshed into the sky, minus their clothes, leaving the rest of us sinner behind to play out some cosmic battle with the anti-christ. If you look at historical Christian practices that have now fallen out of favor -- which you seem totally willing to do in regard to the now defunct Mormon practice of polygamy and the belief in blood atonement -- you really start coming up with some outlandish stuff. Just a sampling, off the top of my head: exorcism, the patronage of saints and the "cult of Mary", witch trials, and the handling of serpents, to name a few.

The only reason that the first examples above perhaps don't seem strange or outlandish is that these, and other, beliefs and practices are familiar to us, shared by a large portion of the population, and therefore seem normal. They seem entirely strange and outlandish if you are outside the culture - say Islamic, Buddhist, or Hindi - just as the beliefs and practices of those religions likely seem strange to most U.S. Christians.

The Mormon certainly has a lot more in common in regard to doctrine and religious practice to the Catholic, the Lutheran, or any other mainstream protestant adherent, than any of those adherents have to a Muslim, for example.
02/26/2008 10:20:11 PM · #78
Haha, those are good examples SP. Certainly Christianity has collected its share of baggage over the years.

Tell me, in your view, which way it is. Mormons seem to like to include themselves with Christians when speaking in generalities ("hey, we believe in Jesus too!"), but like to separate themselves when speaking in specifics ("hey, we're really the only true church!"). Which do you see yourself as and where do you place the rest of us?

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 22:20:43.
02/26/2008 10:24:04 PM · #79
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...Mormons seem to like to include themselves with Christians when speaking in generalities ...but like to separate themselves when speaking in specifics


Yikes. Methinks us Catholics be more guilty of that...far too often.
02/26/2008 10:40:50 PM · #80
Originally posted by Arcanist:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...Mormons seem to like to include themselves with Christians when speaking in generalities ...but like to separate themselves when speaking in specifics


Yikes. Methinks us Catholics be more guilty of that...far too often.


Well, then you get the big old "for shame!". ;) Personally, I am a unifier. I hate that there are so many denominations, or rather I hate that the denominations often have nothing better to do than to fight with other denominations. I do not agree with everything Catholics claim as their doctrine, but I do know Catholics believe salvation is granted through Jesus Christ (good enough for me). Southern Baptists get under my skin more often than not, but they also believe in salvation through Jesus Christ. This is why I don't quite know what to do with Mormons. While I do think the average Mormon believes in salvation through Jesus Christ, the degree of difference on other issues is much more drastic than between, say, a Lutheran and a RC (although I'll agree with SP that it's less than say a Lutheran and a Hindi). So is there a point where those differences become important enough that ultimately they are not "part of the club"? I don't know. Luckily I'm not in charge of who gets to heaven and who doesn't. As I said before, if I see Mormons in heaven, I'm not going to be getting all mad at God because "how dare He!".

To make one thing clear, while I am a unifier, I do not believe that somehow we are all right on our differences. That doesn't make logical sense. Some denominations will be correct on some things while others are correct on others. Infant baptism...drinking and smoking...speaking in tongues. Somehow I doubt one denomination has "all the answers" and ultimately, to me, it doesn't matter. As Paul says, simply, "I preach Christ crucified."
02/26/2008 10:49:35 PM · #81
Hear Hear....oops, I actualy said something.

I must be really confused. I was raised Roman Catholic for 40 years, my father was Southern Baptist and I am now a Morman.

The bottom line is what you are comfortable with. Thank you all for taking the time to learn a little about us Mormons.
02/26/2008 10:51:46 PM · #82
AMEN Brother!!!

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Somehow I doubt one denomination has "all the answers" and ultimately, to me, it doesn't matter. As Paul says, simply, "I preach Christ crucified."
02/26/2008 10:57:01 PM · #83
This post ought to go over well:

Basically all religions are power hierarchies created by man to fulfill the innate human need to understand or create a reason for why we exist. This need is so strong that we create these religions without any proof or credence to explain or prove that a god actually exists. Religion is our insurance policy here on earth so that we can feel good about death.

The not so funny thing is that more people have been killed over religion than will ever be helped.

Let’s all live a good life and treat all people with dignity and respect and it should work out in the end.

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 22:58:11.
02/26/2008 11:01:15 PM · #84
Isn't it true that Mormons stockpile a great deal of food in anticipation of something bad happening?

That way, they will have plenty of food to last (at least a minimum, pre-determined amount of time).

I'm not talking about stocking up food to live on in case someone's power goes out for a day or so, I'm talking about food for days and weeks (month's maybe?). Also, I heard that the district church (or regional church) has an enormous food supply, in addition to the smaller neighborhood churches.

02/26/2008 11:10:38 PM · #85
Originally posted by AperturePriority:

Isn't it true that Mormons stockpile a great deal of food in anticipation of something bad happening?


We are encouraged to have a year's supply of food, yes. It's a difficult thing to do (money, space, logistical reasons). I know our family doesn't have a year's supply. However, we do have a supply of food and water that will last us for a short while should anything major (earthquake here in Utah?) happen.

Originally posted by AperturePriority:

Also, I heard that the district church (or regional church) has an enormous food supply, in addition to the smaller neighborhood churches.


The the smaller churches you reference are just chapels (places of worship) and there is no food supply there. However, the bishop will often have access to programs where in people who are in need of assistance may go to work for food (we do not believe in handouts, however, we'll do all that we can to help one another).

Speaking of the large food supply that church headquarters has... they have food, they have medical supplies, clothing, glasses, you name it, the things people need in an emergency. Take a look at this video for help to Hurricane Katrina victims. Mormons were some of the first on the scene with some of the biggest help.
02/26/2008 11:13:36 PM · #86
Originally posted by AperturePriority:

Isn't it true that Mormons stockpile a great deal of food in anticipation of something bad happening?

That way, they will have plenty of food to last (at least a minimum, pre-determined amount of time).

I'm not talking about stocking up food to live on in case someone's power goes out for a day or so, I'm talking about food for days and weeks (month's maybe?). Also, I heard that the district church (or regional church) has an enormous food supply, in addition to the smaller neighborhood churches.


This would be a wonderful thing for them to do/have done for those left behind when the rapture comes as those who are not taken into Jesus protection will certainly be in dire need when that time comes.

Originally posted by ShutterHack:

Basically all religions are power hierarchies created by man to fulfill the innate human need to understand or create a reason for why we exist. This need is so strong that we create these religions without any proof or credence to explain or prove that a god actually exists. Religion is our insurance policy here on earth so that we can feel good about death.


You are so very right in this SH. Men created these divisions, that is why Joseph Smith was SO very right when he revealed that none of the Churches are the one true church. It does not exist on this plane. It exists in the Kingdom Of God when it comes in its fullness and men will not have to identify themselves based on the 'external' creeds that they cling to or the practices that they have to perform in order to make themselves feel closer to God. Fact is we just don't understand Him so we have to try every which way we can to make ourselves feel like we do.

Bottom line regardless of all Christian sects is that we have to subscribe to the sacrifice and redemption that Christ Jesus bestowed on us as a Gift from the Almighty God. It is the most important precept of our faith and is not usually the separator in any of the Orthodox, Protestant, Latter Day or even Christian Cults. Our life choices, hierarchies and belief systems about what is going on in the supernatural/afterlife/etc are the things that cause us all to wonder who is really 'right.'

ETA: Way past my bedtime. Very happy to see a grown-up discussion on theology and Christian Divisionism for once. Night All.

Message edited by author 2008-02-26 23:16:34.
02/26/2008 11:14:06 PM · #87
Originally posted by AperturePriority:

Isn't it true that Mormons stockpile a great deal of food in anticipation of something bad happening?


Our bishop chooses families at random to live off of their food supplies for at least 2 weeks as to challenge us to keep our food storage full.

I, also, am Mormon.
02/26/2008 11:15:10 PM · #88
i was a mormon as a kid...for awhile. I was baptized over 50 times in one sitting for all the dead souls that were not mormons. They baptized me the first time at age 8 and did not allow me to eat or drink anything for 24 hours before the baptism. After it was done, i puked my brains out with the first gulping of fountain water in my dehydrated state and remained ill for an entire day. yes, they stock up food...lots of food. They also take care of each other, which is a good thing. If you are poor, they give you free food from their warehouse of stockpiled deseret brand food. As a kid, they were the only people that recognized my intelligence. Every other religion dismissed it as being evil. I am god, by the way.
02/26/2008 11:25:09 PM · #89
Hey guys, Seriously... Thx for the discussion, I have learned stuff I didn't know and the discussion is interesting. Doc, I promise, I am not trying to hijack but it might seem like it to you so sorry if this does not add anything :-) A couple of things caught my eye....

Originally posted by dwterry:

That's the one thing that disturbs us most is how the media treats splinter groups as if they were part of the mainstream.

I think that is true of any religion or anything else for that matter :-) Ask Muslims recently about been brushed with a broad generalisation with what in reality is a splinter group. I was brought up Catholic and trust me there are things that are seriously glossed over in the middle ages... the Mormon generalisations are more of recency rather then degrees IMO.

Originally posted by classycam:

Yes, sealing is a binding for eternity and they can be unsealed if both parties agree to it.

I don't get this part... How can something that was bound for eternity be unbound? I mean it seriously not rhetorically... Does that mean it was not bound for "eternity" or is this using a subject use of the term?
02/26/2008 11:28:16 PM · #90
Yaaaa! Glad to see you on here grigrigirl!

From DrAchoo:
"But classycam, wouldn't the idea of a three person godhead be enough to answer your "OUR image" riddle rather than invoking other progressed gods?'


Yes, DrAchoo, that could certainly answer the question. I suppose a council of Gods sitting around a table could also answer the question. My son, at the age of 5, asked me, "But who made God?? Someone had to make God." He couldn't accept the answer that God has always been. I was pleased to see that he inherited that questioning mind...... just as grigrigirl did!
02/26/2008 11:31:27 PM · #91
Originally posted by robs:

Hey guys, Seriously... Thx for the discussion, I have learned stuff I didn't know and the discussion is interesting. Doc, I promise, I am not trying to hijack but it might seem like it to you so sorry if this does not add anything :-) A couple of things caught my eye....

Originally posted by dwterry:

That's the one thing that disturbs us most is how the media treats splinter groups as if they were part of the mainstream.

I think that is true of any religion or anything else for that matter :-) Ask Muslims recently about been brushed with a broad generalisation with what in reality is a splinter group. I was brought up Catholic and trust me there are things that are seriously glossed over in the middle ages... the Mormon generalisations are more of recency rather then degrees IMO.

Originally posted by classycam:

Yes, sealing is a binding for eternity and they can be unsealed if both parties agree to it.

I don't get this part... How can something that was bound for eternity be unbound? I mean it seriously not rhetorically... Does that mean it was not bound for "eternity" or is this using a subject use of the term?


I have the SAME question, Robs! Always have had. There again, it is that "accepting what you are told by your leaders, without questioning."
02/26/2008 11:35:25 PM · #92
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Zeuss:

Originally posted by brimac:

Doc I agree. Once Zeuss does that someone can speak to the fact that if one really looks into the christian faith it does not contradict Science, but shows that Science and Christianity are compatible. In fact, if one really looks into the depths of real science it does prove the existance of God, and many other principles that are the foudation of christianity.


Then how is it that there was light before the sun was created to shine it?


Carl, I'm dead serious. Start your own thread. I love talking to atheists, but not on this thread.

While you are doing that though, you can read Wiki's article on the Timeline of the Big Bang specifically the time from 3 minutes post Big Bang to 380,000 years known as the "Photon Epoch"...


Hay, Doc, I find it odd that you think I'm off subject. You're discussing intricate details of religions, and I am, too. My perspective is that none of them are real. When you and others post/quote Biblical statements like they're true, then you stand to be corrected. It's not real. Mormonism, besides being false, is loaded with bigotry and male supremacy. Funny how no one has mentioned that yet. But for you, I'll bow out.
02/26/2008 11:36:35 PM · #93
OK, LOL, enough of us all feeling warm and fuzzy. More tough questions! ;)

One thing I think Mormons have trouble with (and by extension Catholics), is believing that the head of the church is able to make revelations which are to be taken at the level of scripture. Most Protestant denominations would adhere to the idea ofSolo scriptura, that is, the Bible is all that is needed to understand Christian doctrine. It saves a lot of headache when human error seems to commonly get in the way. Although Mormons worry about the proper translation of the Bible into English, does it worry the average Mormon when past revelations from Presidents are countermanded or altered? At the least it would make me worry about how "in tuned" my leaders are with God, and at worst I would worry that my faith may demand sudden change which would catch me by complete surprise (ala the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who likely thought they were doing the will of God by having plural marriages until they were told this is wrong).

How do the Mormons on the thread feel about this?
02/26/2008 11:55:28 PM · #94
I think some of what you hear can and should be taken with a grain of salt. But our basic response is this: If it is in the scriptures (remember, 4 standard works), if it is preached over the pulpit by our Prophet or discussed in General Conference (televised bi-annually around the world), then it can/should be accepted. If it's just something that is said in passing, or something taken out of context, or something that the church does not uphold as doctrine and teach to be true, well then ... that's all it is.


02/26/2008 11:57:47 PM · #95
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

OK, LOL, enough of us all feeling warm and fuzzy. More tough questions! ;)

One thing I think Mormons have trouble with (and by extension Catholics), is believing that the head of the church is able to make revelations which are to be taken at the level of scripture. Most Protestant denominations would adhere to the idea ofSolo scriptura, that is, the Bible is all that is needed to understand Christian doctrine. It saves a lot of headache when human error seems to commonly get in the way. Although Mormons worry about the proper translation of the Bible into English, does it worry the average Mormon when past revelations from Presidents are countermanded or altered? At the least it would make me worry about how "in tuned" my leaders are with God, and at worst I would worry that my faith may demand sudden change which would catch me by complete surprise (ala the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who likely thought they were doing the will of God by having plural marriages until they were told this is wrong).

How do the Mormons on the thread feel about this?


My feeling about this is a "bothered" feeling. One thing that bothered me recently is this:
The Book of Mormon teaches that the native American people and those of South America are descendants of the Jews. Recent DNA testing has provided information that shows this is not true. This was quite a shock to a lot of Mormons. Some of the scientists who were part of the project wound up leaving the church. I have a DVD that goes into great depth about it. The president of the church was asked "what if DNA results proved Native Americans and Central, South Americans weren't descendants of Jews." He answered, "That could never happen." Well, it did. Now this is a mind blower as far as I'm concerned. Some scientists explained that DNA could change over time. Well, I don't know which it is. But after much, much pondering, I decided that even if it is a blow against the truth of Mormon teachings, it doesn't change the fact that they are truly a good group of people who care and take care of each other. Jesus said, "You will know they are my desciples by the love they show for one another." I see that love with the LDS people, and of all the groups I've known, I'd rather be with them than any others. It has nothing to do with my salvation. It does have a lot to do with life on this earth. I've always felt like the president of the church receives inspiration concerning the organization of the church, and I receive inspiration concerning my personal life.
02/27/2008 12:09:11 AM · #96
I believe for man to become a god or god like is a dangerous position, Man has always shown the tendency to move into a point of self reliance which creates separation from God. To me becoming god it is contrary to what the Bible teaches so it would be interesting to hear how the Mormon belief system deals with man's sinful nature and if that nature is changed at some point where becoming a god would be beneficial rather than detrimental. In other words, if I become a god will I still truly need God?

Interesting topic, I love all the great interaction on this one.
02/27/2008 12:23:59 AM · #97
Originally posted by classycam:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

OK, LOL, enough of us all feeling warm and fuzzy. More tough questions! ;)

One thing I think Mormons have trouble with (and by extension Catholics), is believing that the head of the church is able to make revelations which are to be taken at the level of scripture. Most Protestant denominations would adhere to the idea ofSolo scriptura, that is, the Bible is all that is needed to understand Christian doctrine. It saves a lot of headache when human error seems to commonly get in the way. Although Mormons worry about the proper translation of the Bible into English, does it worry the average Mormon when past revelations from Presidents are countermanded or altered? At the least it would make me worry about how "in tuned" my leaders are with God, and at worst I would worry that my faith may demand sudden change which would catch me by complete surprise (ala the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who likely thought they were doing the will of God by having plural marriages until they were told this is wrong).

How do the Mormons on the thread feel about this?


My feeling about this is a "bothered" feeling. One thing that bothered me recently is this:
The Book of Mormon teaches that the native American people and those of South America are descendants of the Jews. Recent DNA testing has provided information that shows this is not true. This was quite a shock to a lot of Mormons. Some of the scientists who were part of the project wound up leaving the church. I have a DVD that goes into great depth about it. The president of the church was asked "what if DNA results proved Native Americans and Central, South Americans weren't descendants of Jews." He answered, "That could never happen." Well, it did. Now this is a mind blower as far as I'm concerned. Some scientists explained that DNA could change over time. Well, I don't know which it is. But after much, much pondering, I decided that even if it is a blow against the truth of Mormon teachings, it doesn't change the fact that they are truly a good group of people who care and take care of each other. Jesus said, "You will know they are my desciples by the love they show for one another." I see that love with the LDS people, and of all the groups I've known, I'd rather be with them than any others. It has nothing to do with my salvation. It does have a lot to do with life on this earth. I've always felt like the president of the church receives inspiration concerning the organization of the church, and I receive inspiration concerning my personal life.


Whoa. Ya, that's wild. I've often wondered how my own faith would be shaken if we found life on other planets. This isn't even a revelation that counters my beliefs as directly as the info you post above, but it would be enough to give me serious pause for thought. I think ultimately I would get through it (as you seem to have), but it does make you wonder.

I have always heard that The Book of Mormon has scant archeological evidence to back it up while the Bible has a strong body of general evidence (no, we don't have an ark, but we do have Jericho and the Romans etc.). What does the church say about this?
02/27/2008 12:24:17 AM · #98
sorry mom, but personally, I think joseph smith was in the woods eating those "mushrooms" when the hallucination of light and angels appeared to him. The guy was wacko. Sorry again, I am a bit drunk after attending the cheesiest academy award festival of New Orleans wedding professionals. Things like that always make me drink a few bottles of champagne. The sunshine was sure pretty, and I bet if I ate a few mushrooms, I would have seen god show me a few golden pages of lost prophecy. eeep...(running away and hiding)
02/27/2008 12:24:55 AM · #99
First off, Doc and others that have contributed to this thread, thank you. It is indeed VERY interesting.

If I may add a small thought to this discussion regarding the comment that was made regarding the the Book of Mormon as a replacement to the Bible and the imperfections or "mistakes" in the Bible.

It was explained to me by my wonderful Grandfather (who has now passed on) that the Bible has been translated many times by many different people through many different languages. We believe that to the best of man's knowledge it is correct but like a story that is passed on from person to person words can change or have different meanings between two cultural languages. Not that the Bible is incorrect more that if there is a mistake in the Bible (or Book of Mormon for that matter) it is a mistake of man not God.

The Book of Mormon is not meant to replace the Bible; it is to be used in conjunction WITH the Bible.

From the title page of the Book of Mormon:

THE
BOOK OF MORMON
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES

TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.
TRANSLATED BY JOSEPH SMITH, Jun.
First English edition published in 1830


One thing I think Mormons have trouble with (and by extension Catholics), is believing that the head of the church is able to make revelations which are to be taken at the level of scripture. Doc, I believe that it is quite the opposite. If I understand your question correctly Mormons believe that the Prophet (head of the church) receives revelation directly from the Lord. That is how I understand it, but I could be way off base here.

As far as revelation changing or being altered isn't the world we live in constantly in a state of flux? Revelation that was applicable years ago isn't now and vice versa. Again as far as MAN has correctly translated or interpreted it, man being the weak link here not the Lord.
02/27/2008 12:27:36 AM · #100
Originally posted by PapaBob:

I believe for man to become a god or god like is a dangerous position, Man has always shown the tendency to move into a point of self reliance which creates separation from God. To me becoming god it is contrary to what the Bible teaches so it would be interesting to hear how the Mormon belief system deals with man's sinful nature and if that nature is changed at some point where becoming a god would be beneficial rather than detrimental. In other words, if I become a god will I still truly need God?


Hmmm... interesting question. Here's my opinion:

If a man truly follows the teachings of Christ, he won't be the kind of man you describe ... a sinful man, one who usurps power for his own needs and glory. That would be quite the opposite of Christ. Such a man would not become exalted (or god-like).

However, one who truly follows Christ will be like Christ. And did Christ still need his Father? Absolutely.

The scriptures teach us "Be ye therefore perfect".

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 00:30:33.
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