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 02/27/2008 02:11:05 PM · #151
Originally posted by levyj413:
Umm. As opposed to all of Christianity, which is based on the idea that a body was missing, so naturally he must have risen? Regardless of how many texts you can trace to that time, that's not a logical conclusion. Or Judaism, which is based on the idea that some higher being talked to Abraham? Again, was it real or a hallucination? Or ... well, you see my point, I hope.

All religions are based on things that are taken on faith. I think it's a pretty tough argument to make that any one of them is somehow more logical than another. Note that I'm not making the atheist argument here, either. Just that you can't really distinguish based solely on evidence and logic.


As I stated, my belief in Christ's resurrection is not based on his missing body. It's based on what these people who had been following him -- expecting him to free their people -- actually did after his death. If he had just died and been buried, that would have been it. "He was a kook and he was full of it. Let's go back to fishing." Which is exactly what they did, until they met him again, risen from the dead! Then there was a radical change, and they went out and gave their lives to spread the word. People don't do that kind of thing when the person they have believed in and followed for years turns out to be a complete fraud.

You are using the phrase "taken on faith" to mean "against better judgement." I hope your beliefs are based on some concrete facts and not just vague emotional experiences or hear-say. If I have to suspend my disbelief to believe something, it is a lie, so it isn't worth believing.
 02/27/2008 02:17:45 PM · #152
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Be aware though, this question can be somewhat turned on Christianity itself. We've had to deal with an earth that is far older than 6,000 years, odd and amazing stories in the first seven chapters of Genesis, etc.


I don't believe that the Earth is merely 6,000 years old, nor do I believe scripture expects us to. Genesis isn't a science textbook, and God doesn't leave false evidence. He gave us our minds and wants us to use them.
 02/27/2008 02:25:01 PM · #153
Originally posted by superpope:
I hope your beliefs are based on some concrete facts and not just vague emotional experiences or hear-say. If I have to suspend my disbelief to believe something, it is a lie, so it isn't worth believing.


The irony in this last statement is quite rich, deep and abiding. The only "concrete facts" that mainstream Christians have to base their faith on is the history of faith by prior believers. You don't have to "suspend your belief" because you want to believe. If there was "concrete" evidence for a belief in any particular Christian sect, ideology, or practice there would be no argument, and there most clearly is.

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 14:43:31.
 02/27/2008 02:26:15 PM · #154
Getting back on topic, here's something I don't know about. How do Mormons handle sin? I'm quite sure Mormons are not perfect (call it personal experience with my own life...). If getting to heaven is dependent on "all that we can do", how can you ever live up to that? Are you really always doing all that you can do? And if not, what is the mechanism of forgiveness? And if there is a mechanism of forgiveness, then are the deeds really needed to gain highest heaven?

That's a good question. No, Mormons aren't perfect, I know that I'm definitely not. We do have pretty high standards that we are expected to adhere to though, and I do try my hardest. I don't drink, smoke, swear, I didn't have sex before marriage, I attend my church meetings each Sunday and I generally try to be a good person. But I know that I'm NOT expected to be perfect and thanks to Christ atoning for our sins, we are able to repent of the things that we do wrong. Small sins require a small repentence and large sins require something larger. If I tell a lie, it can be repented of by admitting the truth and apologizing to the person I lied to. We don't have to go to our clergy to admit every small infraction. We don't have confession like they do in the Catholic church. But if I committed a larger sin, such as adultery or something, it would probably require counsel and disciplinary action by our clergy. Each case is different and it depends on the individual circumstances and how willing the person is to repent. It could range from temporary suspension of temple privilages and other church priviledges while the person goes through a repentence process, to excommunication if the person was unwilling to repent.

We believe that we were sent to the Earth to learn and grow and be tested to see if we're worthy to return to live with our Father in Heaven. If all we had to do was just simply say that we accepted Christ, what would be the point of being here? To me that just sounds too easy, and makes our whole journey here kind of a waste of time. I believe that we're constantly progressing and learning. If I could just accept Christ and be saved as a teenager, then wouldn't I just be sitting aorund tapping my fingers waiting to die after that? What's the purpose of the whole rest of my life? To me it just doesn't make sence that I could spend my whole life being a miserable person who is horrible to everyone around them and as long as I say that I accept Christ, I'm good to go. That just has never sounded right to me. I like aspiring to high standards. It makes me free of so many things. Sure I could sin and then just repent later, but why go through all the heartache? By holding myself to high standards, I'm free from alcohol or cigarette addiction, I never had to worry about sexually transmitted disease or unwanted pregnancy or any of the other consequences that go along with those choices. I'm a happy, peaceful person with no skeletons in my closet.

So this is the way I look at it. If I'm wrong and the Mormon church is not true (and I honestly, 100% believe that it is), the worst case scenerio is that I've lived a clean, happy life free of addiction, free from the heartache of bad decisions, with a close nit family that has been taught to love and care for each other in a peaceful environment, free from all the crap that is going on in the world today. I'm not perfect and in this life I'm never going to be perfect, but I'm trying hard to be a good person in all the ways that I can. My religion makes me happy. It gives me peace and direction in my life and it makes me feel that I have a purpose for being here. When I do go through difficult times in my life, I take comfort in the fact that I have a loving Heavenly Father to turn to. I believe that I have the opportunity to be with my loved ones again after I die. That makes me happy and it gives me comfort. There are so many misconceptions about our church and people get so hung up on details that really aren't that important, but the bottom line for me is that I'm happy and secure in my decisions and I know that I'm doing what is right for me. That's something that we all have the agency to decide for ourselves.
 02/27/2008 02:41:34 PM · #155
Originally posted by PapaBob:
For believers to be made perfect relies on the forgiveness of sins which is something God would not need. So for me it becomes hard to believe we can attain the status of being a god when we struggle to even come close to living a life without sin and are totally reliant on God.


I agree 100% about the difficulty of becoming perfect here in this life.

But we believe that we won't simply 'stop where we are' at the end of this life. We believe that there will still be much work to be done in the eternities to come. This life, this time of probation, proves our willingness to return to our Father. But it's in the eternities where the greatest progress will be made.

Originally posted by PapaBob:
I think earlier you said Mormons use the bible also for scripture and teaching in a addition to the book of Mormon, is that true and if so how does this align with Mormon teaching, I would find it fascinating how this is addressed in the Mormon scriptures.


Absolutely. We view the two sets of scriptures as "two testimonies" or "two witnesses" of Christ. And although we place a lot of emphasis on the Book of Mormon, I feel we give equal priority to both. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, each of our "four standard works" (Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants) receives a full year of study each year. From that perspective, the Bible gets double the length of time of any other book (i.e. one year of Old Testament, and one year of New Testament). We really do view them as companions, each one completing the other.

02/27/2008 02:45:58 PM · #156
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by dwterry:
Here is another area where I think the LDS doctrines may differ from other religions. We view Christ's final hours as two parts:

1) It is in the garden of Gethsemane, where he prayed to his Father and suffered and sweat drops of blood, that he "atoned" for our sins.
2) And it is on the cross, where he willingly gave his life, that he paid the price that allows all of us to be resurrected.

The first act, the atonement, requires that we repent in order for the atonement to be effective in our lives (grace and works). The second act is a free gift to all. Every person who has come to earth and received a body will be resurrect (grace only, no works required).

So while everyone receives a perfected body and in that sense is "saved", those who return to live again with him (in the highest orders of his kingdom), may only do so by living a life according to his word, by repenting, by receiving the saving ordinances (baptism, etc). But even then, if it weren't for his saving grace, it would be impossible to do "enough" to wash the stains of sin from our lives, which is why we emphasize that we are "saved by grace, after all that we can do".


David, I assume that "everyone" at the beginning of the last paragraph actually means "people who have accepted Christ as the savior"? Just a clarification, not an argument about whether that's correct or not. We just have to careful about words like "everyone" where religion is concerned. :)


Actually, no. We truly believe that everyone, every saint, every sinner, and everyone in between, will be resurrected (there is an exception, referred to as the Sons of Perdition, but it is extremely hard to be so wicked as to become a Son of Perdition ... you basically have to, with full knowledge and a testimony of Christ's divinity, still deny and go against him).


02/27/2008 02:48:04 PM · #157
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
The irony in this last statement is quite rich, deep and abiding. The only "concrete facts" that mainstream Christians have to base their faith on is the history of faith by prior believers. You don't have to "suspend your belief" because you want to believe. If there was "concrete" evidence for a belief in any particular Christian sect, ideology, or practice. There would be no argument, and there most clearly is.


The Christian view of Christ and the nature of God is universal. Christ is simultaneously God and man. He died sinless as payment for our debt incurred through rebellion against God-- a debt we could not possibly pay.

The essential nature of this belief is among the reasons why all of Christendom agrees that the LDS church is a cult.
 02/27/2008 03:01:38 PM · #158
Originally posted by superpope:
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
The irony in this last statement is quite rich, deep and abiding. The only "concrete facts" that mainstream Christians have to base their faith on is the history of faith by prior believers. You don't have to "suspend your belief" because you want to believe. If there was "concrete" evidence for a belief in any particular Christian sect, ideology, or practice. There would be no argument, and there most clearly is.


The Christian view of Christ and the nature of God is universal. Christ is simultaneously God and man. He died sinless as payment for our debt incurred through rebellion against God-- a debt we could not possibly pay.

The essential nature of this belief is among the reasons why all of Christendom agrees that the LDS church is a cult.


And yet ... regarding what you have just said, we believe the exact same thing.
02/27/2008 03:03:24 PM · #159
Originally posted by superpope:
To me, the litmus test of anything worth believing is the evidence for it. Religion should be no different. If you are unwilling to question your beliefs, you\'ll believe anything.


::"Will God reveal to me today all the answers to the Question of Mormonism and beyond?"::

::...Shakes Magic 8 Ball...::

::"Not Likely...Ask Again Tomorrow"::

My first husband had a doctorate in Egyptology and specialized in the study of hieroglyphs (as opposed to archeology). This field is a highly specialized field and requires a strong linguistic background to even study the texts. He was often asked about such things as the texts in reference to aliens, the paranormal, supernatural and religious beliefs because people will always draw an alignment of such texts to create a more concrete reality out of some mystical vision.

As I read this thread while snacking on MM's in my peanut gallery, I can't help but wonder how easy to poke holes academic, scientific or otherwise in what really seems defined by a personal immersion into a spiritual experience or awakening; or an internal life journey for which "Mormanism" is just the current label for that particular perspective and lifestyle? How does anyone validate or invalidate the religious experience of another? How does the arrogance of one perspective overshadow the other? I'm stupid I guess because I don't get that...

It seems to me the whole point of this thread is to questions beliefs (in a positive way), but more importantly that we all have the right to believe even what may be to your own perspective...The Unbelievable.

Well, just my two boring cents...I'll return now, DrAchoo, to polishing my halo. ;-)
 02/27/2008 03:04:57 PM · #160
From Superpope:
If you are unwilling to question your beliefs, you'll believe anything.


I really like that statement.
02/27/2008 03:07:47 PM · #161
Originally posted by superpope:
...Christ is simultaneously God and man...


I'm not sure why I keep pointing out problems with my own religion, but in all fairness, this has not always been "universal". In the 2-3 centuries after Christ's death, this was a HUGE issue and there were wise opinions which fell on both sides of the argument. I would agree NOW that the idea that Christ was both fully human and fully God (a bizarre idea when you think about it) is almost universal.

I can't find a wiki article to talk about this debate because I can't remember the theological term for this argument. Maybe someone else can help there...
 02/27/2008 03:09:26 PM · #162
From Hihosilver:
"As I read this thread while snacking on MM's in my peanut gallery, I can't help but wonder how easy to poke holes academic, scientific or otherwise in what really seems defined by a personal immersion into a spiritual experience or awakening; or an internal life journey for which "Mormanism" is just the current label for that particular perspective and lifestyle? How does anyone validate or invalidate the religious experience of another? How does the arrogance of one perspective overshadow the other? I'm stupid I guess because I don't get that...

It seems to me the whole point of this thread is to questions beliefs (in a positive way), but more importantly that we all have the right to believe even what may be to your own perspective...The Unbelievable. "

Thank you!! Well said and a great explanation for my own way of thinking.
 02/27/2008 03:09:52 PM · #163
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by superpope:
...Christ is simultaneously God and man...


I'm not sure why I keep pointing out problems with my own religion, but in all fairness, this has not always been "universal". In the 2-3 centuries after Christ's death, this was a HUGE issue and there were wise opinions which fell on both sides of the argument. I would agree NOW that the idea that Christ was both fully human and fully God (a bizarre idea when you think about it) is almost universal.

I can't find a wiki article to talk about this debate because I can't remember the theological term for this argument. Maybe someone else can help there...


You are referring to the Nicean Creed. Here is a reference: Trinity Facts
 02/27/2008 03:11:47 PM · #164
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I can't find a wiki article to talk about this debate because I can't remember the theological term for this argument. Maybe someone else can help there...

A lot of the terms that are used come from this interesting article/sermon I came across.
 02/27/2008 03:16:44 PM · #165
Originally posted by dwterry:
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by dwterry:
Here is another area where I think the LDS doctrines may differ from other religions. We view Christ's final hours as two parts:

1) It is in the garden of Gethsemane, where he prayed to his Father and suffered and sweat drops of blood, that he "atoned" for our sins.
2) And it is on the cross, where he willingly gave his life, that he paid the price that allows all of us to be resurrected.

The first act, the atonement, requires that we repent in order for the atonement to be effective in our lives (grace and works). The second act is a free gift to all. Every person who has come to earth and received a body will be resurrect (grace only, no works required).

So while everyone receives a perfected body and in that sense is "saved", those who return to live again with him (in the highest orders of his kingdom), may only do so by living a life according to his word, by repenting, by receiving the saving ordinances (baptism, etc). But even then, if it weren't for his saving grace, it would be impossible to do "enough" to wash the stains of sin from our lives, which is why we emphasize that we are "saved by grace, after all that we can do".


David, I assume that "everyone" at the beginning of the last paragraph actually means "people who have accepted Christ as the savior"? Just a clarification, not an argument about whether that's correct or not. We just have to careful about words like "everyone" where religion is concerned. :)


Actually, no. We truly believe that everyone, every saint, every sinner, and everyone in between, will be resurrected (there is an exception, referred to as the Sons of Perdition, but it is extremely hard to be so wicked as to become a Son of Perdition ... you basically have to, with full knowledge and a testimony of Christ's divinity, still deny and go against him).


my friend in college ended up being a "son of perdition" according to his father, who was like a regional leader or something (not just a church leader, but a leader of the church leaders. bishop, maybe?) :(
 02/27/2008 03:32:48 PM · #166
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by dwterry:
Originally posted by levyj413:
David, I assume that "everyone" at the beginning of the last paragraph actually means "people who have accepted Christ as the savior"? Just a clarification, not an argument about whether that's correct or not. We just have to careful about words like "everyone" where religion is concerned. :)


Actually, no. We truly believe that everyone, every saint, every sinner, and everyone in between, will be resurrected (there is an exception, referred to as the Sons of Perdition, but it is extremely hard to be so wicked as to become a Son of Perdition ... you basically have to, with full knowledge and a testimony of Christ's divinity, still deny and go against him).


my friend in college ended up being a "son of perdition" according to his father, who was like a regional leader or something (not just a church leader, but a leader of the church leaders. bishop, maybe?) :(


According to some, I fall into this category. My family has never said this, and would be very angry with anyone that suggested it. But I've run into members who have suggested/accused(take your pick) me of being in danger of being a son of perdition. (Interesting isn't it that this extreme danger seems only to apply to men and not women...) Anyway, when confronted with the fact that I'm now an atheist who was born into the church (born under the covenant, is the LDS terminology for this), baptized and confirmed, as well as having been sealed in the temple to my first wife (also, no longer a member) I've had members recoil from me in horror. It should be noted that the church members who tend to react this way are almost invariably from Utah (the Mormons that even Mormons think take things a little too far), and have upon later knowledge turned out to be some of the biggest hypocrites in regard to their own Mormon faith and practice.

But please don't take this as some specific and unique indictment of the Mormon faith. Don't see how this is any worse than the condemnation of all unbaptized babies to hell/perdition (catholic, at least until recently), or simply the more "mainstream" practice of fundamentalist christian families condemning and shunning a child who has the audacity to be homosexual.
 02/27/2008 03:34:31 PM · #167
Originally posted by classycam:
Thank you!! Well said and a great explanation for my own way of thinking.


In my household, I have only one rule that I uphold religiously...and it pertains to the XBOX.

In the Star Wars lego game, my children may be any character they choose (even Darth Vader) BUT they are not allowed to kill...each other...;-)
 02/27/2008 03:36:16 PM · #168
Originally posted by PhotoCatcher:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by PhotoCatcher:
Originally posted by Kali:
Originally posted by grigrigirl:
I was baptized over 50 times in one sitting for all the dead souls that were not mormons.

Is there a way I can protect my name from this extreme act of proselytism?


Not to worry, the work is done for everyone. You have what is called "FREE AGENCY", it is your choice whether to accept it or not. It is not an automatic....you are in.....type of situation.


There was a big hubbub when some Jews took exception to holocaust victims being baptized by proxy. As a result, their names were removed from the archival records and, I believe, there is a mechanism for having your name removed if you want.

Baptism for the Dead is the root of why Mormons are keenly interested in geneology.


YES, Mormons are keenly interested in geneology so that we may do this work for our ancestors. We (and I) believe that this work most be completed on this earth. I have done work for my ancestors but it is still up to them whether to accept or reject the baptism. Their choice not mine.

I have chosen while still alive that my spiritual beliefs do not coincide with Mormonism, I don't feel I should have to reiterate that once I'm deceased.
 02/27/2008 03:40:58 PM · #169
Hello, time to step in again for a few answers:

Starting from the beginning, as a "Mormon", I believe that my spirit lived long before I was born as a mortal here on earth. In fact, before being born in spirit form, I was unformed as a sort of raw matter or intelligence. I was then born as a literal spirit child of Heavenly Father (and a Heavenly Mother - who is not named). All of us who have ever lived on the earth or will live on the earth went through the same process, including Jesus Christ.

There came a time when we had made as much progress as we could without a body. We wanted a body like God's (Heavenly Father). So our Heavenly Father created a plan whereby we could receive a body and come to earth to be tested. We would be given Agency to make our own choices (which would mean we'd make mistakes/sin), the ability to create other humans (sexuality) and keep our ability to reason. Since we would make mistakes, Heavenly Father included a saviour in the plan, Jesus Christ. He would come to this earth as the literal mortal son of our Heavenly Father, and a mortal mother. He would live a perfect life, and therefore be able to take on our sins in the atonement, which would satisfy the laws of justice and mercy. He would then lay down his life and take it up again.

As David Terry said, the atonement would allow us to regain the opportunity to repent and through grace and works, be able to live with Christ again. The resurrection would allow all (every person who has lived on the earth - with a very small exception) to have their spirits reunited with their bodies. This is where grace alone takes place.

There were many of us who like Heavenly Father's plan, but one especially didn't. Lucifer put forth his own plan. He would force us all to follow the rules and laws, so we would all be able to live with Heavenly Father again. In exchange, he wanted all the glory. We were given a choice as to which plan to fight for. We all fought for Heavenly Father's plan with Christ as our savior. We know this because we have mortal bodies. Those that followed Lucifer did not win and still follow Lucifer, trying to influence with deceipt.

This life is the time for us to prove ourselves and to work on allowing the spiritual side of us (our spirits) to gain mastery of our carnal side (our bodies.) We also get to be co-creators with Heavenly Father in bringing spirits to the earth and giving them bodies. We feel this gift (sexuality and reproduction) is very sacred and is to only be used between a husband and wife. It bonds two people together and it is a gift that is only available with a body. Obviously, we feel that this sacred gift is not to be used outside of marriage or by those of the same sex.

That's enough for this post.
 02/27/2008 04:04:03 PM · #170
Originally posted by karmat:
my friend in college ended up being a "son of perdition" according to his father, who was like a regional leader or something (not just a church leader, but a leader of the church leaders. bishop, maybe?) :(


Ummm... his father may have called him that (and maybe a few other choice words). But I would think (careful, gospel-according-to-David here) that about the only way to become a Son of Perdition would be to have seen Christ, had a perfect witness of his divinity, and still choose to deny him.

02/27/2008 04:09:35 PM · #171
Great news, folks! I have found the solution to all our questions!

[thumb]652279[/thumb]

Just dial Him up! (If only it were that easy!!)
 02/27/2008 04:14:12 PM · #172
Here's another paragraph or two:

As a Mormon, I believe that sometime after we die, we will all be resurrected (except the Sons of Perdition). Once all have been resurrected there will be a judgement. At that time, we will receive a placement in one of 3 Kingdoms of glory - all of which are fabulous beyond discription. Each kingdom with have various levels of progress, and all will continue to progress eternally.

In the lowest degree of glory, the Telestial Kingdom, (the glory of the stars - think of the brilliance of the stars away from the city lights), will live those who did not ever accept Christ, and who lived a life of lacking in goodness. These will not live with Christ or Heavenly Father, but will have a glory that defies imagination. There will not be families, just associations, nor will there be the ability to create.

In the middle degree of glory, the Terrestrial Kingdom, (the glory of the moon - think of the full moon away from city lights), will live those who accepted Christ and lived a good, decent life. They will live with Christ and Christ will rule over them. They will not live with Heavenly Father, nor be in families or create.

In the highest degree of glory, the Celestial Kingdom (the glory of the sun - think mid-day), will live those who accepted Christ, lived a good, decent life, continued to progress, and accepted the saving ordinances that our Heavenly Father asked us to complete. They are baptism, confirmation, receiving the priesthood (for men), receiving the sacred ordinances provided in the temple (personal covenants and promises given in the endowment - a gift from God, and optionally, being sealed to your parents, spouse, and children). They will live with Heavenly Father and Christ. All those who have been sealed as families will live as families, and husbands and wives who have been sealed will have the power to create.

Will these blessing take place immediately upon the judgement? I doubt it. Heavenly Father and Christ use natural law to rule and govern - much which don't yet understand. We will have to continue and progress to get there.

When a person is sealed to a parent, spouse or child, the ceremony only provides the opportunity to have that relationship bound in the eternities. The Holy Spirit of Promise, another name for the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, has the authority to make the bond effective. We must live our life so that we truely want that blessing.

Agency is so key to all of these blessings. Our Heavenly Father will not demand that we accept a blessing. He is very aware that being placed in a level or relationship that isn't "comfortable" would be hell. Much as water seeks its own level, we will be given the level and blessings that we are entirely comfortable with.

Our Heavenly Father, in his mercy, wants all who would accept these truths and ordinances, whether they were able to hear them here on earth or not, to have access to them. That is why people are baptised and sealed for the dead (which is refered to in the bible). They, of course, have their choice to accept or reject these ordinances.

Enough for now.
 02/27/2008 04:18:48 PM · #173
Originally posted by rjkstesch:
This life is the time for us to prove ourselves and to work on allowing the spiritual side of us (our spirits) to gain mastery of our carnal side (our bodies.)


I'll come back to this because here is the place where I cannot really understand. If you have to "prove yourself", where is the bar of comparison? What if you turn out to be just under that bar? We all like to think we are "just good enough" and are quick to spot fault in others (that's human nature), but if we lined all the Mormons up from the best to the worst, wouldn't there be a line where you would say, "those to the left get in the Celestial Kingdom, those to the right get in the Terrestrial Kingdom"? And how certain are you where you stand on that line? Honestly. How certain? Sure you were a virgin when you were married. Sure you were baptized. But what about that time you were just so tired and really yelled a bit too strongly at the kids? Or the time you didn't give the incorrect change back to the teller?

Living a life where your ulitmate salvation is dependent on your actions should be incredibly stressful.

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 16:20:54.
 02/27/2008 04:21:26 PM · #174
One more bit.

We do have a modern day prophet and have had modern revelation. We have never been told we have to believe the revelation or accept it. In fact, the opposite is true.

We have a right and responsibility to ask God (Heavenly Father) in the name of Christ, asking in faith, if what we have been told is true. If it is true, the Holy Ghost, (His spirit speaking to our spirit) will let us know that it is true.

Spiritual things cannot be known by logic or intellect. They must be confirmed by the spirit.

Those who continue to verify the truth of revelation gain a testimony that carries them through many of the most difficult of life's experiences, and allows a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
 02/27/2008 04:22:07 PM · #175
Originally posted by classycam:
Great news, folks! I have found the solution to all our questions!

[thumb]652279[/thumb]

Just dial Him up! (If only it were that easy!!)


LOL...somehow that brought flashbacks of ford pintos and car wrecks.
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