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02/27/2008 04:26:44 PM · #176
If we go back to the oldest source of religion and faith (Biblical), we will find that there are seven basic laws for all people.....referred to as the Law of Noah
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

After Moses gave the law to the Israelites (not just 10, but over 600), the gentiles were still only obligated to live the seven laws in order to be righteous. I think most Christians (including myself as a Mormon) are gentiles, unless you are from the Jewish bloodline. According to Jewish belief, the gentiles are still held accountable under those 7 laws (for rightous living). So, does it really matter what religion a person belongs to or what his belief system is as long as he lives rightously and in harmony with others? (excluding the question of faith in Christ, etc. for this particular point)
02/27/2008 04:27:51 PM · #177
Originally posted by rjkstesch:

We do have a modern day prophet and have had modern revelation. We have never been told we have to believe the revelation or accept it. In fact, the opposite is true.


Is this really true? I'm quoting Brigham Young off the LDS website here (linky)

"Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy."
"When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy."
"One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop?"
"No man gets power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church. Such power is obtained from an evil source."
"There is no such thing as confusion, division, strife, animosity, hatred, malice, or two sides to the question in the house of God; there is but one side to the question there."

Ouch. That's pretty straightforward.
02/27/2008 04:28:12 PM · #178
Originally posted by grigrigirl:

Originally posted by classycam:

Great news, folks! I have found the solution to all our questions!

[thumb]652279[/thumb]

Just dial Him up! (If only it were that easy!!)


LOL...somehow that brought flashbacks of ford pintos and car wrecks.


hahahaha...........I'll bet it brought flashbacks of a particular song, too!
02/27/2008 04:31:14 PM · #179
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by rjkstesch:

This life is the time for us to prove ourselves and to work on allowing the spiritual side of us (our spirits) to gain mastery of our carnal side (our bodies.)


I'll come back to this because here is the place where I cannot really understand. If you have to "prove yourself", where is the bar of comparison? What if you turn out to be just under that bar? We all like to think we are "just good enough" and are quick to spot fault in others (that's human nature), but if we lined all the Mormons up from the best to the worst, wouldn't there be a line where you would say, "those to the left get in the Celestial Kingdom, those to the right get in the Terrestrial Kingdom"? And how certain are you where you stand on that line? Honestly. How certain? Sure you were a virgin when you were married. Sure you were baptized. But what about that time you were just so tired and really yelled a bit too strongly at the kids? Or the time you didn't give the incorrect change back to the teller?

Living a life where your ulitmate salvation is dependent on your actions should be incredibly stressful.


Sometimes it's stressful - I tend toward perfectionism at times ;-). Satan likes to use discouragement to keep us from going forward. Repentance isn't just for this world, it continues, it's just easier to repent of some things with your body - think gluttony.

To me, it seems to be that the dividing line ends up being a person's personal choice. Between death and the resurrection, there will be a time of learning - which I think will be so much easier when we don't have Satan influencing us, and have our memories back - yet tougher because of that body thing. We'll have the chance to hear all of the plan in a spiritual place, AND decide if we want to accept baptism and the other ordinances that have been done for us.

Then the dividing line between Terrestial and Celestial is accepting the ordinances (with, I expect, the spiritual knowledge to make the choice right for us).

The dividing line between the Telestial and Terrestial is accepting Christ as your savior.

I'm so glad the God knows my heart. Whatever that decision, it will be exactly what I wanted.
02/27/2008 04:41:30 PM · #180
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by rjkstesch:

We do have a modern day prophet and have had modern revelation. We have never been told we have to believe the revelation or accept it. In fact, the opposite is true.


Is this really true? I'm quoting Brigham Young off the LDS website here (linky)

"Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy."
"When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy."
"One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop?"
"No man gets power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church. Such power is obtained from an evil source."
"There is no such thing as confusion, division, strife, animosity, hatred, malice, or two sides to the question in the house of God; there is but one side to the question there."

Ouch. That's pretty straightforward.


I knew I should have worded that better. We don't HAVE to believe. We are responsible to verify the revelation for ourselves.

If we choose to question without verifying the truth, we have done exactly as Brigham Young states. We are walking the road of apostasy - or leaving the teachings of Church. When he says "No man get power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church", he is aware that if we ask for verification of the revelation, in faith, we will be told of the truth. He is also telling us that God runs the Church through revelation and knows what He's doing.
02/27/2008 04:42:14 PM · #181
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by rjkstesch:

This life is the time for us to prove ourselves and to work on allowing the spiritual side of us (our spirits) to gain mastery of our carnal side (our bodies.)


I'll come back to this because here is the place where I cannot really understand. If you have to "prove yourself", where is the bar of comparison? What if you turn out to be just under that bar? We all like to think we are "just good enough" and are quick to spot fault in others (that's human nature), but if we lined all the Mormons up from the best to the worst, wouldn't there be a line where you would say, "those to the left get in the Celestial Kingdom, those to the right get in the Terrestrial Kingdom"? And how certain are you where you stand on that line? Honestly. How certain? Sure you were a virgin when you were married. Sure you were baptized. But what about that time you were just so tired and really yelled a bit too strongly at the kids? Or the time you didn't give the incorrect change back to the teller?

Living a life where your ulitmate salvation is dependent on your actions should be incredibly stressful.


Honestly, that doesn't worry me a bit. I believe that if I do all that I can do to try and be a good person and follow the commandments, that I won't be dissapointed in the next life. God knows what he's doing and I'm going to let him work all of that out. I also don't think that God is going to compare me to how everyone else did. I think that he's going to judge me on what I accomplished based on what I had to work with. I think he's going to be more concerned about whether or not I reached my own potential as a person rather than how I measured up to someone else. God knows each of us individually and I think that he's going to judge us all individually.
02/27/2008 04:54:41 PM · #182
Originally posted by rjkstesch:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by rjkstesch:

We do have a modern day prophet and have had modern revelation. We have never been told we have to believe the revelation or accept it. In fact, the opposite is true.


Is this really true? I'm quoting Brigham Young off the LDS website here (linky)

"Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy."
"When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy."
"One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop?"
"No man gets power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church. Such power is obtained from an evil source."
"There is no such thing as confusion, division, strife, animosity, hatred, malice, or two sides to the question in the house of God; there is but one side to the question there."

Ouch. That's pretty straightforward.


I knew I should have worded that better. We don't HAVE to believe. We are responsible to verify the revelation for ourselves.

If we choose to question without verifying the truth, we have done exactly as Brigham Young states. We are walking the road of apostasy - or leaving the teachings of Church. When he says "No man get power from God to raise disturbance in any Branch of the Church", he is aware that if we ask for verification of the revelation, in faith, we will be told of the truth. He is also telling us that God runs the Church through revelation and knows what He's doing.


Can you give me an example where the Prophet (or President) has spoken and someone has said, "I'm not sure that's true" and the church decided, "hey, our bad"?

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 16:57:24.
02/27/2008 04:56:59 PM · #183
Originally posted by Wenders11:

Honestly, that doesn't worry me a bit. I believe that if I do all that I can do to try and be a good person and follow the commandments, that I won't be dissapointed in the next life.


Whoa. So you really believe you are doing ALL YOU CAN DO? There isn't a moment in time where you could have done more? No sin of omission? No time when you could have given a little more?

Despite the fact I love my God and endeavor to serve him with my life, I'm pretty sure I'm not doing ALL I CAN DO...
02/27/2008 05:11:29 PM · #184
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Wenders11:

Honestly, that doesn't worry me a bit. I believe that if I do all that I can do to try and be a good person and follow the commandments, that I won't be dissapointed in the next life.


Whoa. So you really believe you are doing ALL YOU CAN DO? There isn't a moment in time where you could have done more? No sin of omission? No time when you could have given a little more?

Despite the fact I love my God and endeavor to serve him with my life, I'm pretty sure I'm not doing ALL I CAN DO...


I don't believe that it's possible for me to be perfect, but I do believe that for the most part I'm trying to do the best that I can do as a flawed human. And we do have the ability to repent when we make mistakes. Am I perfect? No, I'm very far from it. But I know that God understands that I'm human and flawed. He doesn't expect anyone to do everything 100% perfect all of that time. The point is that I try, and I think that God knows when we're trying and when we're not. I'm not concerned about being perfect because I know that it's not possible. I'm also not worried about not being good enough because there's no point in beating myself up for every single thing I do wrong. I'm just going to try to do my best with what I have to work with. God knows the intent of my heart.

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 17:19:39.
02/27/2008 05:12:03 PM · #185
Boy, whoever wrote this book sure didn't have much knowledge of science or biology, eh Doc?

Isaiah 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Lamentations 4:3 Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.

(I've never met a cruel ostrich.
Or a dragon, unicorn, or sea monster for that matter)
02/27/2008 05:23:44 PM · #186
Originally posted by genghis:

Boy, whoever wrote this book sure didn't have much knowledge of science or biology, eh Doc?

Isaiah 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Lamentations 4:3 Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.

(I've never met a cruel ostrich.
Or a dragon, unicorn, or sea monster for that matter)


Where in the world did this come from? Left field? First, I've never met a wise owl either or a sly fox. Second, I'm sure a whale can be characterized as a "sea monster" and lo and behold, they do suckle their young. Third, translators fully admit they aren't sure what the words mean. "Unicorn", some think, could be a wild bull, but they don't know.

Stick to the topic at hand.
02/27/2008 05:26:07 PM · #187
Originally posted by Wenders11:


I believe that if I do all that I can do to try and be a good person and follow the commandments, that I won't be dissapointed in the next life. God knows what he's doing and I'm going to let him work all of that out.


Hmmmm...I'm a firm believer in "Trust in God...but keep your camel tied tight." If you are a good person and follow the commandments for the payoff of not being disappointed in the next life, I can't help but wonder why not follow the path just for the sake of the path...and not just for the payoff.

My apologies DrAchoo...Gosh, I'm in trouble now...I just ran out of halo polish...;-)
02/27/2008 05:26:09 PM · #188
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Living a life where your ulitmate salvation is dependent on your actions should be incredibly stressful.


On the other hand, a doctrine of salvation that discounts individual action seems quite hollow. The "saved by faith alone" brand of Christianity would also seem, to me, to open the door for a some particularly nasty psychological rationalizations.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm always fascinated by how much intensity the faith versus works argument generates. Perhaps this is a reflection of my Mormon upbringing, because it seems to me that the distinction is pretty much false. Like I said in my first post above, a person of faith should be motivated to act in ways consistent with that faith and motivated to avoid actions that conflict with that faith.

Under this prescription, "faith without works is dead," isn't some sort of prescription elevating works over belief, but rather simply an observation about the world - if you say you believe, but act as if you don't, what does that say about your faith? Viewed in this light there is simply no inconsistency between "faith without works is dead" and "no one comes to me except by faith."

Again, this is an argument that I just don't get, but I certainly observe that it seems to be incredibly important to certain people of belief.

[Note that I actually believe that most people's actions are motivated by their faith and that this is not necessarily a good thing, given the prescriptions laid out in most holy texts and the type of factionalism that organized religion necessarily entails. Most believers like to emphasize the "warm and fuzzy" aspects of their doctrines while glossing over the less savory aspects of their faith. The morality of religion is not necessarily obvious at best, and, I would argue, highly questionable overall. But that is neither here nor there for this discussion.]

02/27/2008 05:28:20 PM · #189
Originally posted by Wenders11:

...I do believe that for the most part I'm trying to do the best that I can do as a flawed human...


I'm not sure where the fudge factor comes in. Your article of faith states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

I'm being mildly facetious, but I don't see a "for the most part" inserted in the article. I'd be happy to read any links you can provide me to explanations of this by LDS prophets or presidents.
02/27/2008 05:33:42 PM · #190
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Living a life where your ulitmate salvation is dependent on your actions should be incredibly stressful.


On the other hand, a doctrine of salvation that discounts individual action seems quite hollow. The "saved by faith alone" brand of Christianity would also seem, to me, to open the door for a some particularly nasty psychological rationalizations.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm always fascinated by how much intensity the faith versus works argument generates. Perhaps this is a reflection of my Mormon upbringing, because it seems to me that the distinction is pretty much false. Like I said in my first post above, a person of faith should be motivated to act in ways consistent with that faith and motivated to avoid actions that conflict with that faith.

Under this prescription, "faith without works is dead," isn't some sort of prescription elevating works over belief, but rather simply an observation about the world - if you say you believe, but act as if you don't, what does that say about your faith? Viewed in this light there is simply no inconsistency between "faith without works is dead" and "no one comes to me except by faith."

Again, this is an argument that I just don't get, but I certainly observe that it seems to be incredibly important to certain people of belief.

[Note that I actually believe that most people's actions are motivated by their faith and that this is not necessarily a good thing, given the prescriptions laid out in most holy texts and the type of factionalism that organized religion necessarily entails. Most believers like to emphasize the "warm and fuzzy" aspects of their doctrines while glossing over the less savory aspects of their faith. The morality of religion is not necessarily obvious at best, and, I would argue, highly questionable overall. But that is neither here nor there for this discussion.]


I think this goes back to my differentiation between "works" and "Works" (I add the capital letter to make a difference). The first (little w), is evidence of your faith. I agree, someone who says, "I believe in Jesus." and then proceeds to live a life of greed, malice, cruelty, and selfishness is unlikely to really believe in Jesus and what he stands for. However, I quite rebel against the idea that there is a checklist of specific acts that are required for salvation (works with a big W). Mormon doctrine seems to indicate that not only do Works exist, but that works are a part of them (adhering to the words of wisdom at least "all that you can"). I'm only making the argument that Paul does much better in Romans and Galatians that if you are subject to the Law, you are subject to the entire Law and you WILL fail to keep it. Maybe I can dig up a nice paraphrase translation that would at least eloquently make the argument I am making.
02/27/2008 05:54:42 PM · #191
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Wenders11:

...I do believe that for the most part I'm trying to do the best that I can do as a flawed human...


I'm not sure where the fudge factor comes in. Your article of faith states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

I'm being mildly facetious, but I don't see a "for the most part" inserted in the article. I'd be happy to read any links you can provide me to explanations of this by LDS prophets or presidents.


*sigh* I'm not sure where this discussion is getting us. Are you trying to get me to say that I'm not perfect enough to get into the Celestial Kingdom or that our church is teaching something that is impossible to accomplish? Because honestly, if God is only letting in perfect people, he's going to be hanging out there by himself. Again, we do not believe that we have to be perfect, because perfection is impossible in this life. We do believe that we can be saved if we obey the laws and keep the commandments. Does that mean that God is going to kick me out because I disobeyed my parents when I was 15? No. Again, if that were the case, no one would be getting in. It's not an all or nothing thing and it's not going to be a one size fits all judgement day. I don't know how God is going to judge us. I don't know what the fudge factor is and I don't know at what point he decides that someone isn't good enough. But I'll say again, I don't worry about it. I'm going about my life trying to be a good person, and if it isn't good enough, then I guess it isn't good enough. But I'm trying and I think the Lord knows that.

Here are some quotes from our prophets:

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith offers this counsel:

“Salvation does not come all at once; we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. It will take us ages to accomplish this end, for there will be greater progress beyond the grave, and it will be there that the faithful will overcome all things, and receive all things, even the fulness of the Father’s glory.

“I believe the Lord meant just what he said: that we should be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect. That will not come all at once, but line upon line, and precept upon precept, example upon example, and even then not as long as we live in this mortal life, for we will have to go even beyond the grave before we reach that perfection and shall be like God.” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 2:18–19.)

I am also convinced of the fact that the speed with which we head along the straight and narrow path isn’t as important as the direction in which we are traveling. That direction, if it is leading toward eternal goals, is the all-important factor.
Another quotation, which comes from President George Q. Cannon, is very meaningful to me:

“Now, this is the truth. We humble people, we who feel ourselves sometimes so worthless, so good-for-nothing, we are not so worthless as we think. There is not one of us but what God’s love has been expended upon. There is not one of us that He has not cared for and caressed. There is not one of us that He has not desired to save and that He has not devised means to save. There is not one of us that He has not given His angels charge concerning. We may be insignificant and contemptible in our own eyes and in the eyes of others, but the truth remains that we are children of God and that He has actually given His angels … charge concerning us, and they watch over us and have us in their keeping.” (Gospel Truths, comp. Jerreld L. Newquist, 2 vols., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1974, 1:2.)

If we are in the keeping of angels, God is certainly telling us that we are worthy to be watched over, helped, and directed by him. As we become aware of God’s watch-care and as we turn to Church leaders to help us learn how to become worthy members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we learn that we can reach the status of worthiness for each goal along life’s path. Yet we must strive for worthiness.

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 17:55:50.
02/27/2008 06:06:33 PM · #192
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I think this goes back to my differentiation between "works" and "Works" (I add the capital letter to make a difference). The first (little w), is evidence of your faith. I agree, someone who says, "I believe in Jesus." and then proceeds to live a life of greed, malice, cruelty, and selfishness is unlikely to really believe in Jesus and what he stands for. However, I quite rebel against the idea that there is a checklist of specific acts that are required for salvation (works with a big W). Mormon doctrine seems to indicate that not only do Works exist, but that works are a part of them (adhering to the words of wisdom at least "all that you can"). I'm only making the argument that Paul does much better in Romans and Galatians that if you are subject to the Law, you are subject to the entire Law and you WILL fail to keep it. Maybe I can dig up a nice paraphrase translation that would at least eloquently make the argument I am making.


I think this is where the misunderstanding lies. Yes, Mormon doctrine contains quite a few behavioral prescriptions - the word of wisdom being only the most obvious and unique. However, the only specific acts that are required for salvation are baptism, confirmation and endowment. That is why Mormons feel the need to accomplish these acts by proxy -- the temple services referred to earlier -- for those who did not do these things personally in their own life. (I'm not defending this practice, btw. Even when I was a member, I thought it pretty darn presumptuous. But it is entirely consistent with Mormon philosophy and meant by Mormons as a work of service, not some nefarious forced conversion as I've seen it characterized.)

Adherence to the other behavioral dictates is certainly looked upon as a sign of the strength of ones faith, but are not a "checklist" of actions needed to get into heaven. Mormons believe that these behavioral restrictions are ultimately given to them for their benefit here on earth. Thus you follow the Word of Wisdom because God told the prophet that you should. But, following this code is supposed to make you healthier, happier and more physically robust. The behavioral dictates are not supposed to be "petty" exercises designed by God to see if you are willing to jump through enough hoops in order to grab the brass ring, but rather divine parental advice given to believers in hopes of making their earthly life better.

This is actually one of the more attractive theological aspects of the religion to my mind. Earthy life is not supposed to be a chore, a series of tests for the fallen children of Adam that must be endured. Joseph Smith said, "Man is that he might have joy," and Mormons believe that if they live according to the dictates of their faith life will be better than if they don't. Obedience to the the will of God is certainly an aspect of this, but for Mormons the will of God is for their happiness here on earth as well as in an afterlife.

Message edited by author 2008-02-27 18:08:04.
02/27/2008 06:19:39 PM · #193
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

However, the only specific acts that are required for salvation are baptism, confirmation and endowment. That is why Mormons feel the need to accomplish these acts by proxy -- the temple services referred to earlier -- for those who did not do these things personally in their own life.


This sounds more mainstream. But I'll go way back to the Temple Recommend. To get endowment, doesn't one have to have kept these other codes to the best of their ability so as to get a recommend so as to get endowed? Maybe it's a rubber stamp thing and I'm putting too much into it. How many Mormons get a Temple Recommend? Everybody?

Here is a bit of Paul's argument (written in a paraphrase) about living by works and why it is a bad idea:

1 Christ has set us free to live a free life. So take your stand! Never again let anyone put a harness of slavery on you.
2-3I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law. 4-6I suspect you would never intend this, but this is what happens. When you attempt to live by your own religious plans and projects, you are cut off from Christ, you fall out of grace. Meanwhile we expectantly wait for a satisfying relationship with the Spirit. For in Christ, neither our most conscientious religion nor disregard of religion amounts to anything. What matters is something far more interior: faith expressed in love.

Still an interesting conversation. I don't mean to get more pointed. Again, I push to see what comes back. I sense Wenders getting a bit frustrated with me.
02/27/2008 06:37:23 PM · #194
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

However, the only specific acts that are required for salvation are baptism, confirmation and endowment. That is why Mormons feel the need to accomplish these acts by proxy -- the temple services referred to earlier -- for those who did not do these things personally in their own life.


This sounds more mainstream. But I'll go way back to the Temple Recommend. To get endowment, doesn't one have to have kept these other codes to the best of their ability so as to get a recommend so as to get endowed? Maybe it's a rubber stamp thing and I'm putting too much into it. How many Mormons get a Temple Recommend? Everybody?



No. Not all Mormons get a recommend. It's true that we have to be following the Word of Wisdom, we must have a testimony, we must be paying our tithing, and living a relatively morally clean life in order to have this recommend.
02/27/2008 06:42:53 PM · #195
Originally posted by daboardergirl:

[quote=DrAchoo] No. Not all Mormons get a recommend. It's true that we have to be following the Word of Wisdom, we must have a testimony, we must be paying our tithing, and living a relatively morally clean life in order to have this recommend.


So by logical extension, wouldn't tithing, at least at some point in your life, also be "required" for salvation?
02/27/2008 06:50:24 PM · #196
If we're speaking of full salvation, meaning living in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom with God, then yes.. you could say that tithing is necessary. So, you need to pay tithing to have a temple recommend, and you must have a recommend to get your endowment, which is required for full salvation.
02/27/2008 07:06:11 PM · #197
Originally posted by daboardergirl:

If we're speaking of full salvation, meaning living in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom with God, then yes.. you could say that tithing is necessary. So, you need to pay tithing to have a temple recommend, and you must have a recommend to get your endowment, which is required for full salvation.


Thanks for the info.
02/27/2008 09:09:40 PM · #198
Originally posted by DrAchoo:



Here is a bit of Paul's argument (written in a paraphrase) about living by works and why it is a bad idea:

1 Christ has set us free to live a free life. So take your stand! Never again let anyone put a harness of slavery on you.
2-3I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law. 4-6I suspect you would never intend this, but this is what happens. When you attempt to live by your own religious plans and projects, you are cut off from Christ, you fall out of grace. Meanwhile we expectantly wait for a satisfying relationship with the Spirit. For in Christ, neither our most conscientious religion nor disregard of religion amounts to anything. What matters is something far more interior: faith expressed in love.


Doc -

Paul is preaching to groups of people who have been separated from the leaders with a solid base in the gospel and have taken some tangents. This particular group was reverting back to following the Law of Moses which had been "fulfilled in Christ." No longer did the the strict behavior codes have to be followed as the reason for those laws (preparing the people to be ready for Christ) was no longer needed. Circumcision was one of those laws, along with many others. Paul is trying to get the people to live Christ's message, not the Law of Moses.
02/27/2008 09:16:27 PM · #199
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can you give me an example where the Prophet (or President) has spoken and someone has said, "I'm not sure that's true" and the church decided, "hey, our bad"?


Not the President and Prophet ( he fills both roles), as it has been revealed that God will not allow the Prophet to lead us astray.

There have been instances of General Authorities preaching false doctrine and/or being excommunicated. In those cases, the Church leadership has given public corrections, in essence, "hey, our bad."
02/27/2008 09:19:35 PM · #200
Originally posted by rjkstesch:

Paul is preaching to groups of people who have been separated from the leaders with a solid base in the gospel and have taken some tangents. This particular group was reverting back to following the Law of Moses which had been "fulfilled in Christ." No longer did the the strict behavior codes have to be followed as the reason for those laws (preparing the people to be ready for Christ) was no longer needed. Circumcision was one of those laws, along with many others. Paul is trying to get the people to live Christ's message, not the Law of Moses.


Don't I know it. I guess where we differ is I think his argument may be quite salient in the case of your church. Of course the specifics have changed, but the principles remain. "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
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