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03/27/2007 03:24:34 AM · #101 |
Just to toss in my two cents (because there simply isn't enough change in here already) -
Regarding the interweb and appropriateness of comments, I would like to point out that, as a community (maybe not necessarily one particular individual, and not necessarily each individual), we have gotten a bit over-free with our comments and perhaps need to reign them in a little more and remember to phrase them as if we were face to face with the subject we were addressing.
The interweb has provided a certain anonymity where some people start to feel that they don't know any of 'these people', so it doesn't matter how they say some things. However, since you don't know who any of 'these people' are, that means you really COULD know them, and just not know it. So you should always conduct yourself accordingly.
Until everyone on the interweb agrees with me, however, I advise a thick skin.
A note regarding the photograph - I think it's beautiful! The only remarkable thing about her body that I would even comment on is her neck - it's just so graceful! This is a beautiful utilization of pose and body type.
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03/27/2007 11:10:57 AM · #102 |
People's stereotypes are coming out - which is OK because it's real and people should stand up to their sterotypes because they might learn something about themselves.
My stereotype: I think she looks how aliens are often portrayed (in this picture of course). I'd tell her to her face because I know she's beautiful and completely out of my league - the married league ;P But seriously, everyone loves to get righteous and say "you shouldn't say that" -- so whatever, say-it. Many great comments in this thread - especially this comment ;()
To me, I can tell she's beautiful and that's why she's on the front page. Artsy, sexy, a tad out-of-this-world. So artsy and such a charicature-type pose that it might win a blue ribbon - uhh yeah. I am reminded of Sigorne Weaver in Alien 12345 (I realize that she wasn't an alien but she shaved her head which means she looks just like Sigourne Weaver EXACTLY .. in fact this is Sigourne - I realize I'm probably misspelling it) , The lighting and pose is awesome and I'm glad it is getting all of this attention!
Message edited by author 2007-03-27 11:35:03. |
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03/27/2007 11:32:42 AM · #103 |
I think your last sentence is very insensitive considering the thread and the issues in it. I'm not going to edit it but I'd like it if you would consider it. Thanks
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03/27/2007 11:37:27 AM · #104 |
Fair enough - I'm just trying to keep it light-hearted in my warped way. Point being that everyone has an opinion and getting over-sensitive about them is something I try to avoid.
Originally posted by Konador:
I think your last sentence is very insensitive considering the thread and the issues in it. I'm not going to edit it but I'd like it if you would consider it. Thanks |
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03/27/2007 11:53:07 AM · #105 |
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03/27/2007 11:55:44 AM · #106 |
Thanks :)
I understand your point and to some extent agree with it, it's good to keep things light hearted sometimes! But on the other hand its also good not to at other times. Which times are which is where everyone differs and thats where arguments can erupt because people can get sensitive about issues which are close to them.
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03/27/2007 12:08:11 PM · #107 |
While I agree with most of the "This is a photography site..." comments, I do think that an important point is being overlooked here. Most of us, as photographers, hope to have our work displayed in a public forum where it can be (hopefully) appreciated by others, but this publicity holds no small amount of responsibility. The images we portray make a statement and have the ability to effect others to varying degrees.
While I certainly feel that it's not acceptable to go after the subject because of the work of the photographer, I do believe that the photographer needs to be aware of how his work is likely to effect others and be willing to accept the resulting comments. If the subject is "controversial" then the photographer had better be prepared to deal with any criticism or public outcry as a result. I don't believe it's reasonable for any artist to throw his work into the public eye and not take responsibility for the response it evokes. The subject is off limits but the artist certainly is not.
I've not read any of the comments that started this whole debate. If they go after the subject than I think the authors of those comments have stepped over the line. However, if they hold the photographer responsible for (what the commentators feel is) contributing negatively to our culture, than the photographer should accept the criticism and reply with grace.
My personal opinion is that this is a compelling photograph. I think that Toyan has done an artful job of using a very serpentine model to convey his idea. That said, I can certainly see where the photograph could make people feel uncomfortable and comments (of the photograph) to that effect should come as no surprise.
Can we get back to doing photography now?
-Kevin |
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03/27/2007 12:13:13 PM · #108 |
Personally I noticed her long neck first, not any suggestions of an anorexic. I have seen many photos of much skinier models and even website devoted to anorexic/erotic stuff. Anything can be found on the web.
Last night, I was watching the "Friends" serial on TV, and I noticed that one of the main movie stars also had a similar neckline. All of the movie stars on that show are quite sexy. (That was before I even saw this thread.)
There are extremes and then there are some even more extreme. I think I've seen it all. Way back there was a famous English model named Twiggy, and that was a fad for a while.
Niether party, the photographer or the Viewer/Critic should get so, so, upset. Comments and opinions, everyone has one.
Do not Drink and Surf. Show some respect. |
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03/27/2007 12:21:58 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Come on....when you put a picture on a public site then just about anything goes. I think that is one of the reasons you need a "release".
I can't imagine that with all the voting and commenting going on on this site, there are many who think that "anorexic" comments should not be allowed....unreal !
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
[quote=kenskid]
Is this what all the commotion is about????? Why can't a person post what the picture "means to them"? There is nothing wrong with the above comment............NOTHING. |
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How can you really contribute to this conversation. Really, this guy doesn't care if I say he's silly looking:
IMO, you really don't have enough experience in portraiture or working with models to know why someone would get angry at personal attacks aimed at the model.
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03/27/2007 12:27:03 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
So you're saying that it's only bad to comment negatively on female models? I've seen more than enough "my god, get that fat hairy ass off my screen!" comments in certain challenges and portfolio photos on here that are just completely laughed off by most people, yet tend to hurt the photographer and model... but since he's male, I guess that's ok.
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Come on, Glen ... who ya talking to? I have the most infamous nude male photo on the site :-P
But, no... I don't think comments aimed at men are any more appropriate than those aimed at women. Men (especially the ones that do nude SP's with cheese) tend to not be a self-conscious about body image as women. But, it still doesn't make similar comments aimed at men right.
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03/27/2007 12:34:16 PM · #111 |
Laurent's photo is a work of art - no mistake. Fantastic work. I just want to offer two thoughts:
1. I think that those who initially used the "A" word in comments, did so in the belief that it was an adjective. They did not state that she had anorexia. It was used innocently enough (it seems) albeit uninformedly, as a descriptive word. Meaning she looked excessively thin. Something can be described as looking ancient - when it's not older than a few years, or gritty, when there isn't a speck of tar/stone anywhere...you get the idea.
2. I think Laurent created an image that pushed all boundaries: the extreme pose, the lighting to highlight the bones and curves, the shorn hair, the decision to go nude...all very carefully orchestrated and executed - to perfection!!! Fantastic. He got a look, an image and a result. He also got reaction. I really believe it comes down to her nudity. When she's dressed she looks gorgeous. All day - and I'm beginning to go a bit crazy - I've been mentally undressing women. My daughter's Art teacher is in her twenties but has the body I had at the age of 11. She is tiny and delicate. I can imagine in the nude she must look a bit as Romy does... these people exist Fact.
So yes she is thin. Yes she is beautiful. In any other pose, she would not have caused that reaction. Does this come down to our persistent discomfort with the nude form? Dunno - just fascinated by this thread and the reactions. Makes for a wealth of material in social studies :-)
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03/27/2007 12:39:47 PM · #112 |
It is unfortunate that a couple ill concieved off-the-cuff remarks out of 100+ comments could cause such a stir.
The thinness and shape of the model added considerable viewer interest to the composition and obviously played a pivotal roll in its score and placing. To expect no one out of a general and opinionated group like DPC would make a couple stupid comments like that is... wellll... naive.
Tis much ado about nothing. Slough it off and forget about it.
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03/27/2007 12:51:47 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by faery:
All day - and I'm beginning to go a bit crazy - I've been mentally undressing women. |
This is a sign of craziness? Uh oh...
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03/27/2007 01:11:13 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by faery:
All day - and I'm beginning to go a bit crazy - I've been mentally undressing women. |
This is a sign of craziness? Uh oh... |
Good Lord...I must be certifiable!!! |
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03/27/2007 01:26:41 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by justamistere:
Niether party, the photographer or the Viewer/Critic should get so, so, upset. Comments and opinions, everyone has one.
Do not Drink and Surf. Show some respect. |
Everyone does have opinions and should be encouraged to express themselves. However, in a community, online or otherwise, tact and sensitivity to others should be used, especially when discussing another person's appearance. Conjecture about someone's medical condition based on appearance is rude at best.
For period of months, my son, then 2, was put on steroids. One of the side effects was weight gain, in his case it was significant. If he had been that big without steroids, he would have been considered obese. Of course, he didn't have a sign around his neck saying, "I'm only this fat because I'm being treated with steroids." Some people who were ignorant of this fact, took it upon themselves to inform my wife and/or me that our son was too fat and we: a) needed to put him on a diet, b) should be locked up for feeding him too much junk or c) needed to be educated about proper nutrition. Every time it happened, I could not believe that these people could be so rude and stupid as to actually make these kinds of comments to our faces. |
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03/27/2007 01:43:02 PM · #116 |
Guys, guys, guys whoa there....from whence it comes - I'm a straight girl: I love the female form - nothing more beautiful in the world really: but I feel a bit odd imagining what the woman behind the checkout looks like naked!!! But hey maybe I just had an epiphany :-P
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by faery:
All day - and I'm beginning to go a bit crazy - I've been mentally undressing women. |
This is a sign of craziness? Uh oh... |
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03/27/2007 02:30:35 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by justamistere:
Niether party, the photographer or the Viewer/Critic should get so, so, upset. Comments and opinions, everyone has one.
Do not Drink and Surf. Show some respect. |
Everyone does have opinions and should be encouraged to express themselves. However, in a community, online or otherwise, tact and sensitivity to others should be used, especially when discussing another person's appearance. Conjecture about someone's medical condition based on appearance is rude at best.
For period of months, my son, then 2, was put on steroids. One of the side effects was weight gain,... ...I could not believe that these people could be so rude and stupid as to actually make these kinds of comments to our faces. |
Yes, repeated comments about your son could be upsetting, even though some may have stemmed from genuine heartfelt concern for the well being of another human being.
Did you put photographs of your son in contests that were soliciting comments and critiques? I totally agree about using tact, maybe PM the person in private if you're really concerned.
When things are put in the eye of the public with the intentions of welcoming criticism. You have to expect ALL-KINDS of comments and freedom of speech. The good, bad, and ugly. They all exist in the real world. I welcome them all, I may not be tactful, but I can accept reality with confidence. |
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03/27/2007 02:42:39 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by justamistere:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by justamistere:
Niether party, the photographer or the Viewer/Critic should get so, so, upset. Comments and opinions, everyone has one.
Do not Drink and Surf. Show some respect. |
Everyone does have opinions and should be encouraged to express themselves. However, in a community, online or otherwise, tact and sensitivity to others should be used, especially when discussing another person's appearance. Conjecture about someone's medical condition based on appearance is rude at best.
For period of months, my son, then 2, was put on steroids. One of the side effects was weight gain,... ...I could not believe that these people could be so rude and stupid as to actually make these kinds of comments to our faces. |
Yes, repeated comments about your son could be upsetting, even though some may have stemmed from genuine heartfelt concern for the well being of another human being.
Did you put photographs of your son in contests that were soliciting comments and critiques? I totally agree about using tact, maybe PM the person in private if you're really concerned.
When things are put in the eye of the public with the intentions of welcoming criticism. You have to expect ALL-KINDS of comments and freedom of speech. The good, bad, and ugly. They all exist in the real world. I welcome them all, I may not be tactful, but I can accept reality with confidence. |
I believe that in most cases, their concern was genuine, but the comments and actions were the epitome of rudeness and, in every case wholly unappreciated and out of line. If I see an overweight person in a store I don't approach them and suggest they eat a salad instead of Twinkies. It was, is and always will be, none of their business.
The issue of putting his image into a contest is irrelevant. The fact is that people are making judgments about the behavior and medical status of another person based on incomplete information. I might add that these are judgments they are in no way qualified to make, even if they are medically trained. These people are then taking their ill-conceived notions and then presenting them in a rude and inappropriate manner in public. |
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03/27/2007 03:29:03 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Artyste:
So you're saying that it's only bad to comment negatively on female models? I've seen more than enough "my god, get that fat hairy ass off my screen!" comments in certain challenges and portfolio photos on here that are just completely laughed off by most people, yet tend to hurt the photographer and model... but since he's male, I guess that's ok.
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Come on, Glen ... who ya talking to? I have the most infamous nude male photo on the site :-P
But, no... I don't think comments aimed at men are any more appropriate than those aimed at women. Men (especially the ones that do nude SP's with cheese) tend to not be a self-conscious about body image as women. But, it still doesn't make similar comments aimed at men right. |
That's why I added the line that I did about you personally having no issues ;) |
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03/27/2007 04:36:11 PM · #120 |
| Let's remember, too, that this is our blue ribboner - that speaks volumes. |
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03/27/2007 05:47:57 PM · #121 |
error
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Artyste:
So you're saying that it's only bad to comment negatively on female models? I've seen more than enough "my god, get that fat hairy ass off my screen!" comments in certain challenges and portfolio photos on here that are just completely laughed off by most people, yet tend to hurt the photographer and model... but since he's male, I guess that's ok.
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Come on, Glen ... who ya talking to? I have the most infamous nude male photo on the site :-P
But, no... I don't think comments aimed at men are any more appropriate than those aimed at women. Men (especially the ones that do nude SP's with cheese) tend to not be a self-conscious about body image as women. But, it still doesn't make similar comments aimed at men right. |
Message edited by author 2007-03-27 17:48:27. |
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03/27/2007 05:50:52 PM · #122 |
That dog looks anorexic !
Also...you say I don't have enough experience with portraiture to know if a model would get angry at personal attacks...if so, then I or anyone else with no portraiture experience should be voting or commenting at all on portrait challenges.
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Come on....when you put a picture on a public site then just about anything goes. I think that is one of the reasons you need a "release".
I can't imagine that with all the voting and commenting going on on this site, there are many who think that "anorexic" comments should not be allowed....unreal !
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
[quote=kenskid]
Is this what all the commotion is about????? Why can't a person post what the picture "means to them"? There is nothing wrong with the above comment............NOTHING. |
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How can you really contribute to this conversation. Really, this guy doesn't care if I say he's silly looking:
IMO, you really don't have enough experience in portraiture or working with models to know why someone would get angry at personal attacks aimed at the model. |
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03/27/2007 05:56:54 PM · #123 |
For me, to be able to create an image that causes people to stop, look, and think about it...is my goal. I may not like what is said, but the fact that it obtained a reaction works for me.
The comments made, are from people that don't know the model and are expressing the feelings that are invoked by looking at the image...good, bad or ugly. I would take it with a grain of salt...and know that everyone's life experiences are different...so, their reactions are drawn from their own lives.
I personally, enjoyed the image...the lighting is outstanding and her form amazing. |
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03/27/2007 06:47:20 PM · #124 |
| There's a huge difference between offering criticism, no matter how blunt and insensitive, about the photography and insulting the model. |
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03/27/2007 07:26:03 PM · #125 |
if you don't got any thing nice to say don't say any thing at all thats a good rule to live by on a forum thats sapose to be a helping tool for photographers.
On the other hand if the comment was stated tastfully and not in a vulger manner i feel all things should be questioned, and i don't really think the comment was towards the model as much as the idea of anorexics in general she may not be anorexic but she is very skinny and is a kind of stamp of what we see in every day life as a normal for young girls... kinda sad that we push a unhealthy wieght onto are youth look around at are school yards and its not very hard to see the girls who are influenced by the images they see.
But alas this is what we pay for living in a image based society. |
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