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03/26/2007 08:54:55 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Show me the model and specific photo he was pointing at? Of course he crossed the line but I wouldn't say EQUALLY offensive. I took it as an angered way to point out that society has gotten bigger and gives this bitter sort of attitiude to anyone who isn't. |
as someone who thought she looked unhealthily thin (though i refrained from commenting publicly), i can only guess his comment was directed at me. might not be what he meant to say, but as this thread proves, people see/hear the world differently.
but it no longer matters, as he's been nice enough to remove his offensive comment from the photograph's description.
score one for civility...
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03/26/2007 09:56:47 PM · #77 |
I think when someone (in this case a model) is bordering on either end of the spectrum with regards to a healthy looking body, it is never a bad thing to raise a topic. If one was completely honest, and judging from the other images of her in the photographer's portfolio, she is certainly near the "borderline" of being too thin.
You can see her ribs and vertebrae bulging. That I can say with assuredness is not normal. However I, nor none of us, know with absolute certainty that she has an eating disorder. As others have pointed out, her bone structure, perhaps, could simply be delicate. There are cases where thin people have terrible health factors such as high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc. Whereas, there are some people who "look" overweight, yet display every health sign of a person with top fitness. So the "healthiness" of the model in question is beyond our collective discernment.
But it should be remembered that our passion, profession or hobby...this realm of photography...is purely a visual one, so it should not come as a surprise nor a disappointment when one raises a thought or concern. Attacking is unnecessary. But as long as anyone can raise a topic with respect then we shouldn't downplay it. Remember: the sentence "She looks anorexic" is neither negative, mean-spirited, or fact. It is observation. It is estimation.
Lastly, I feel that the weight of the model or her uniqueness of form has once again pointed out the power of photography. The visual "whoa" of the blue ribbon is undeniable. Think of the good, bad, thought-provoking and simple conversational element this one image has created. That is a very good thing because it opens dialogue. Let's just remember to keep it civil, productive and insightful.
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03/26/2007 10:00:01 PM · #78 |
 Same model... looking waay better
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03/26/2007 10:03:51 PM · #79 |
| I think saying she has anorexia, was pretty harsh, comming from a family of 9, every single one of us are thin, our parents are thin, our grandparents were thin. It just runs in the family. We all eat like horses! So maybe she was born that way. I totally agree with Cutter, couldn't have said it better. |
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03/26/2007 10:16:29 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by Toyan:
Here is my answer to DrAchoo and Posthumous
If I say that I didn't cheat on the lenght of her neck... why would I lie? |
Why would you lie? Why would any cheater cheat? To exaggerate the subject and win, of course. But asking for validation isn't the same thing as saying you cheated; it's just asking for independent confirmation of something unusual.
It happens all the time. I like it, and you should, too, since you didn't actually cheat. Take it as an indication that you captured something unusual enough that someone didn't believe it was real.
I think you need to separate the two people you lumped together. DrAchoo asked for validation, which was a reasonable response. I think he's trusting the SC to deal with it, and since it's been validated, that's that. I'm with him, by the way - I'm delighted to hear the SC validated it.
Posthumous, on the other hand, said he still doesn't believe it.
Message edited by author 2007-03-26 22:20:57.
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03/26/2007 10:16:38 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Toyan:
If I say that I didn't cheat on the lenght of her neck... why would I lie? |
I don't know you or how credible you are. I only know that her neck is unbelievably long, and you used it to great effect. Like zeuszen said, everything contributes to the overall effect of the photo, which you nailed in your title: "cobra" |
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03/26/2007 10:19:49 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I still can't quite grasp it, especially looking at other pictures of her. |
Jeff, DrAchoo and I are on the same page here. Stop trying to drive us apart! You'll only end up pushing us together. And you better than anyone know how much I hate awkward kisses. |
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03/26/2007 10:21:31 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I still can't quite grasp it, especially looking at other pictures of her. |
Jeff, DrAchoo and I are on the same page here. Stop trying to drive us apart! You'll only end up pushing us together. And you better than anyone know how much I hate awkward kisses. |
I just want to see some other cool shots of her!
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03/26/2007 10:34:15 PM · #84 |
Here is the anorexic comment:
[i]This picture is really... interesting. its just odd because she looks somewhat anorexic, & her neck looks too long. not to insult the model, but her body looks really unhealthy & i dunno... i guess it adds to the picture, but then it kinda takes away from the picture because i feel like i'm focusing more on how unhealthy she looks & less on how good the photo is =/[/i]
Is this what all the commotion is about????? Why can't a person post what the picture "means to them"? There is nothing wrong with the above comment............NOTHING. The comment was made based upon how the particular viewer saw the image...and the image is of a VERY THIN person...VERY THIN. For the photographer to get bent out of shape over a comment like this is BIZZARE.
Message edited by author 2007-03-26 22:34:54.
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03/26/2007 10:53:14 PM · #85 |
I think these may also have something to do with it:
Originally posted by Commenter:
you need to put a cheeseburger in her hand!! |
Originally posted by Commenter:
Was she in Jason and the Argenoughts.
Exellent lighting technique.
Please show her where the Fridge is thogh ! |
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03/26/2007 11:11:46 PM · #86 |
Yeah so???? If that is what the picture made the viewer feel then so what? One comment praised the picture but called it "Alienish". The term "Alienish" is not even a human term. This image actually made that person feel as if they were looking at a being from another world! ...There is nothing wrong with that.
Originally posted by Konador:
I think these may also have something to do with it:
[quote=Commenter] you need to put a cheeseburger in her hand!! |
Originally posted by Commenter:
Was she in Jason and the Argenoughts.
Exellent lighting technique.
Please show her where the Fridge is thogh ! |
[/quote |
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03/26/2007 11:13:07 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Is this what all the commotion is about????? Why can't a person post what the picture "means to them"? There is nothing wrong with the above comment............NOTHING. |
Most of us that spend time shooting women are quite defensive about what is said about the women we shoot. They aren't here to defend themselves. Personally, I would have asked SC to remove that comment (and have asked for such comments to be removed). One such comment insinuated that my model was loose. I was quite pissed.
The comment was more about the model than the photography. Quite inappropriate IMO.
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03/26/2007 11:16:49 PM · #88 |
| I do agree that saying things such as "put a cheeseburger in her hand" might be unnecessary, but most of the comments I read mentioning anorexia say "she LOOKS anorexic." I think this is a huge difference from saying "She MUST be anorexic for how skinny she is!" I bet I can make myself look anorexic by sucking in my stomach and pushing my ribs out. |
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03/26/2007 11:21:42 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Mulder:
I do agree that saying things such as "put a cheeseburger in her hand" might be unnecessary, but most of the comments I read mentioning anorexia say "she LOOKS anorexic." I think this is a huge difference from saying "She MUST be anorexic for how skinny she is!" I bet I can make myself look anorexic by sucking in my stomach and pushing my ribs out. |
No, there were MANY more comments mentioning it. Here's one particularly distasteful example, IMO:
Originally posted by craigester:
This model looks anorexic and would probably be thrown out as a ramp model in Europe, but it is a very interesting and disturbing image. |
Comments about her likelihood of being thrown out as a ramp model? How are these constructive? How is it appropriate?
"Too thin for my tastes" would be appropriate... "[she] would probably be thrown out as a ramp model" is not.
There were many more, particularly after the challenge ended, that I think hardly need going into.
ETA: Not to mention the fact that one doesn't "look anorexic" any more than one "looks mentally ill". People know that it's possible to be several hundred pounds overweight and still be anorexic, right? It has NOTHING to do with the actuality of being physically thin - just the GOAL of being physically thin. Much of her appearance is dictated by the way she's arching her body, in both of the photos Toyan posted. Her ribs, etc. would be far less visible if she were standing normally.
Message edited by author 2007-03-26 23:26:57. |
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03/26/2007 11:24:28 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Is this what all the commotion is about????? Why can't a person post what the picture "means to them"? There is nothing wrong with the above comment............NOTHING. |
Most of us that spend time shooting women are quite defensive about what is said about the women we shoot. They aren't here to defend themselves. Personally, I would have asked SC to remove that comment (and have asked for such comments to be removed). One such comment insinuated that my model was loose. I was quite pissed.
The comment was more about the model than the photography. Quite inappropriate IMO. |
So you're saying that it's only bad to comment negatively on female models? I've seen more than enough "my god, get that fat hairy ass off my screen!" comments in certain challenges and portfolio photos on here that are just completely laughed off by most people, yet tend to hurt the photographer and model... but since he's male, I guess that's ok.
And this has nothing to do with your personal willingness to let it all hang out either, as I fully understand that you don't give a crap what people say about yourself. Just wanted to make that clear.
This isn't about women, it's about a complete and utter lack of respect that hangs about here directed at just about everything. |
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03/26/2007 11:31:51 PM · #91 |
Come on....when you put a picture on a public site then just about anything goes. I think that is one of the reasons you need a "release".
I can't imagine that with all the voting and commenting going on on this site, there are many who think that "anorexic" comments should not be allowed....unreal !
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Is this what all the commotion is about????? Why can't a person post what the picture "means to them"? There is nothing wrong with the above comment............NOTHING. |
Most of us that spend time shooting women are quite defensive about what is said about the women we shoot. They aren't here to defend themselves. Personally, I would have asked SC to remove that comment (and have asked for such comments to be removed). One such comment insinuated that my model was loose. I was quite pissed.
The comment was more about the model than the photography. Quite inappropriate IMO. |
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03/27/2007 12:46:03 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Originally posted by Mulder:
I do agree that saying things such as "put a cheeseburger in her hand" might be unnecessary, but most of the comments I read mentioning anorexia say "she LOOKS anorexic." I think this is a huge difference from saying "She MUST be anorexic for how skinny she is!" I bet I can make myself look anorexic by sucking in my stomach and pushing my ribs out. |
No, there were MANY more comments mentioning it. Here's one particularly distasteful example, IMO:
Originally posted by craigester:
This model looks anorexic and would probably be thrown out as a ramp model in Europe, but it is a very interesting and disturbing image. |
Comments about her likelihood of being thrown out as a ramp model? How are these constructive? How is it appropriate?
"Too thin for my tastes" would be appropriate... "[she] would probably be thrown out as a ramp model" is not.
There were many more, particularly after the challenge ended, that I think hardly need going into.
ETA: Not to mention the fact that one doesn't "look anorexic" any more than one "looks mentally ill". People know that it's possible to be several hundred pounds overweight and still be anorexic, right? It has NOTHING to do with the actuality of being physically thin - just the GOAL of being physically thin. Much of her appearance is dictated by the way she's arching her body, in both of the photos Toyan posted. Her ribs, etc. would be far less visible if she were standing normally. |
A disclaimer before going into my diatribe: my opinion of this is filtered through my experience as a message board moderator. The kids - teenagers - were not allowed to post about personal experiences with "crisis topics". We had a lot of kids posting about how they wanted to die, or how they were purging, or any number of topics that are simply inappropriate for random social forums. This makes me sound like a total conservative - I'm not. I think these things should be freely discussed, but in the appropriate place, and an infinitely more appropriate place for discussion of a current crisis is your local ER, a crisis hotline, your therapist's message service, etc. It does NOT belong on a photography site, not even under "General Discussion". You'll be better helped by professionals trained to do just that. Anyway...
I actually started this thread after reading this comment (edited to get down to the pertinent detail):
"Let me tell you from the point of view of someone who has been around anorexic women. She is anorexic. Period. When you can see someones bones throughout most of their body, that is anorexic."
This is what got me angry. That and the sandwich comment. While it's uncomfortable to me to read that someone "looks anorexic", I can take a deep breath and let that go. But this? This was too far. This is what I was referring to when I wrote about the idiocy of purporting to know more about a stranger you've never met than her friends and family who, assuming Laurent is friends with Romy beyond a strictly professional photographer/model relationship, did speak in her defense. So no, it's not just about an insensitive comment about a sandwich, and it's not a whole lot of getting worked up about "looking anorexic" (though that bothers me too).
As Ben pointed out early on in the thread, this goes beyond merely needing to have a thick skin. It veers off into being potentially psychologically harmful, as such things can be and are often triggering to people who DO have eating disorders.
Or self-mutilation disorders, for that matter. With all due respect to the original poster of another thread, photos of a cut wrists are highly triggering to cutters and I definitely feel that anything that is potentially dangerous to the community in such a way has NO place here, not even with a trigger warning in the subject line. Honestly, no one needs anonymous internet forum "help" - log off and call a crisis hotline.
It's NOT a matter of taste. It's not a matter of toughening up. It's a matter of mental health. And hiding behind the "thick skin" mantra is no excuse for anyone's lack of tact and sensitivity.
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03/27/2007 01:12:29 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by Cutter:
You can see her ribs and vertebrae bulging. That I can say with assuredness is not normal. However I, nor none of us, know with absolute certainty that she has an eating disorder. As others have pointed out, her bone structure, perhaps, could simply be delicate. There are cases where thin people have terrible health factors such as high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc. Whereas, there are some people who "look" overweight, yet display every health sign of a person with top fitness. So the "healthiness" of the model in question is beyond our collective discernment.
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While I don't have a problem with most of what you said... saying you can say with assuredness that seeing her ribs and vertebrae is not normal... I think perhaps you haven't SEEN very many thin people? I can assure you if I posed like her, you'd see my ribs. And I'm not even that thin any more. I used to be about 7 pounds lighter at the same height in high school and I have never had an eating disorder.
Seeing ribs is not a crazy thing. There are all different body types and bone structures and the area around the ribs and spine aren't really the main fat storing areas. |
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03/27/2007 01:12:58 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
I think these things should be freely discussed, but in the appropriate place, and an infinitely more appropriate place for discussion of a current crisis is your local ER, a crisis hotline, your therapist's message service, etc. It does NOT belong on a photography site, not even under "General Discussion". |
In general, I agree, however I think that this topic, at this particular time, was appropriate. People saw an issue and raised concern about it.
Originally posted by Rebecca:
This is what got me angry. That and the sandwich comment. While it's uncomfortable to me to read that someone "looks anorexic", I can take a deep breath and let that go. But this? This was too far. This is what I was referring to when I wrote about the idiocy of purporting to know more about a stranger you've never met than her friends and family who, assuming Laurent is friends with Romy beyond a strictly professional photographer/model relationship, did speak in her defense. So no, it's not just about an insensitive comment about a sandwich, and it's not a whole lot of getting worked up about "looking anorexic" (though that bothers me too).
As Ben pointed out early on in the thread, this goes beyond merely needing to have a thick skin. It veers off into being potentially psychologically harmful, as such things can be and are often triggering to people who DO have eating disorders.
Or self-mutilation disorders, for that matter. |
Over the years I've been associated with many people along many paths of mental illness - depression, schizophrenia, addiction, cutting, eating disorders, bipolar disorder, and many more. Each person is different and not one of them was identifiable solely by appearance (except maybe the cutters). The problem is that people don't know what they're saying. They say "anorexic" when what they mean is "unhealthily skinny" - and even that isn't correct... it's just more appropriate for this forum. I can say that I think someone looks unhealthily skinny without being unreasonably rude.
Originally posted by Rebecca:
With all due respect to the original poster of another thread, photos of a cut wrists are highly triggering to cutters and I definitely feel that anything that is potentially dangerous to the community in such a way has NO place here, not even with a trigger warning in the subject line. |
This is the only part of your statement that I will plainly disagree with you on. Many things are triggers for many different people, for many different disorders or mental issues. I don't think that it's our job, or even our place, to limit the expression of the photographer to non-triggering subjects. For some people the entire Food challenge is a trigger.
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Honestly, no one needs anonymous internet forum "help" - log off and call a crisis hotline.
It's NOT a matter of taste. It's not a matter of toughening up. It's a matter of mental health. And hiding behind the "thick skin" mantra is no excuse for anyone's lack of tact and sensitivity. |
IMO, you're right and wrong at the same time. For many people, internet forums are one of the few ways that they stave off their issues - by using it as group counseling and commiseration. For others, forums are the worst possible answer that could be dreamed up. The people who are being helped in the forums are sometimes enough to trigger those who feel they aren't. The "they're getting better, why aren't I" syndrome. Every one of those people should seek professional help regardless of the internet's suitability to them, however.
I responded to all of that in somewhat random order, so I apologize if it doesn't all make sense. |
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03/27/2007 01:15:29 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by yanko:
You really think that refutes what she was getting at? You're right it did win a ribbon which happen to be in a challenge called "Trends" and the idea was obesity as a trend. I'm just guessing but I'd imagine the voters liked it because of the idea and not because they were obese. If you stuck that photo in any other challenge I'm guessing it would struggle to score even a 6.0 let alone ribbon. |
I really find very little ribbon worthy in said photo. I think it's below the norm. (Apologies to the photographer.) But I find it cluttered. Not the best of crops. And a number of other flaws that would keep many such photos out of the ribbon category.
I'll wager that the reason that image won is because in fact many people dislike fat/obese people. And look at it in a derogatory fashion. But none would say such. But in this instance, they were able to express their "comments" by voting. Thus they voted in support for an image that degraded obese individuals.
That said, i do think obesity is a concern in America. But the unspoken attitudes. No, I don't think this photo ribboned because of either photographic merit nor the appreciation of the models. I think it ribboned because of communication. (A very valid aspect of photography, just ask any newspaper journalist.) This photo allowed people to convey their feelings without speaking in a politically incorrect fashion. |
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03/27/2007 01:19:39 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
While I don't have a problem with most of what you said... saying you can say with assuredness that seeing her ribs and vertebrae is not normal... I think perhaps you haven't SEEN very many thin people? I can assure you if I posed like her, you'd see my ribs. And I'm not even that thin any more. I used to be about 7 pounds lighter at the same height in high school and I have never had an eating disorder.
Seeing ribs is not a crazy thing. There are all different body types and bone structures and the area around the ribs and spine aren't really the main fat storing areas. |
I'd say that it's pretty common. God knows that when I was younger (until I hit 19 or so) I could have easily been labeled anorexic due to my size. My wife even had the opinion that I was. I do have eating problems, but not in the realm of a weight disorder (though, after 13 years behind a desk, I'd sure love to drop a bunch). My reactions to the taste and texture of food are... abnormal. To that end, I have a very limited diet. It's not good for me. |
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03/27/2007 01:23:52 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by Toyan:
Here is my answer to DrAchoo and Posthumous
If I say that I didn't cheat on the lenght of her neck... why would I lie? |
Wait! The thumb is gone. I want to see! I wasn't questioning you as much as I was saying I still have a hard time grasping it. (that's my problem, not yours). Once it's validated, I highly doubt you cheated. Before validation, well, it seemed more likely you had cheated than her neck was really that long. |
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03/27/2007 02:00:39 AM · #98 |
One last thing before I go to bed...
I'm realllly sick of the attitude "well you posted the photo on a public site you should realize you will get reaction" or the "if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen." This goes for any controversial "comment" not just this one.
Posting your artwork on a public site doesn't mean it's open to whatever hurtful, degrading comments people want to throw at it! That's why this site is moderated! It is open to CRITIQUES... good and bad but tasteful and idealy somewhat helpful or inciteful (but often not).
Not every opion is valid and should be protected. Sorry, but that's the truth. Just because it comes out of your mouth and you put the label "MY OPINION" on it does not mean it is sacred. If that were true there would be no sort of coherent debate or argument... a lot like what has gone on here. "I think her ribs poke too much and therefor it's weird and therefor I am right in saying she is anorexic and that's what I FELT so boo to anyone who says I can't."
Things don't work like that! Sure you CAN say what you want, but don't expect it to always be ok. Because by that logic any objections would also be ok because everyone can say what they want right? |
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03/27/2007 02:01:04 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
While I don't have a problem with most of what you said... saying you can say with assuredness that seeing her ribs and vertebrae is not normal... I think perhaps you haven't SEEN very many thin people? I can assure you if I posed like her, you'd see my ribs. And I'm not even that thin any more. I used to be about 7 pounds lighter at the same height in high school and I have never had an eating disorder.
Seeing ribs is not a crazy thing. There are all different body types and bone structures and the area around the ribs and spine aren't really the main fat storing areas. |
I know people who have ranged from enthusiast to professional within the fitness and nutritional world. I have friends and relationships with models who are very thin by most people's standards, probably too thin. I have lived and seen a lot. And thin people, in general, would not reside within my realm of the unbeknownst. In fact, I have seen and met people with severe disorders that literally turn your stomach and make your heart fall. So please...do not presume.
But you must have not read my post closely. I never made the connection between thinness and automatic eating disorder. I actually leaned more towards the opposite. My point was...the quote you put forth...that ribs and bulging vertebrae does not lay in the normal range of body mass. It simply doesn't. You are right...if I proportioned my frame in the correct light and angle, you could even see my ribs. But that isn't my point. I used the conjunction of ribs AND vertebrae to illuminate the obvious. And that is the model in question is quite thin. It is very plain. But I would not presume to make any further estimations as to her eating habits...nor would I even say it is "wrong" or "unhealthy". Like I said, she might simply be quite petite. No big deal.
But, one note...if you do study people with severe eating disorders and their bodies have detoriated to the point of very littl body fat...you can point to 3-4 focus areas. And they include: ribs, spinal column, clavicle...So my point of observation is not so unlikely.
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03/27/2007 02:42:27 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
good and bad but tasteful and idealy somewhat helpful or inciteful (but often not).
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You might want to watch it there ;) Unfortunately, inciteful isn't a word, but if it was, it would mean "to incite", which is exactly what you're trying to fight against.
Now.. insightful, would be something to strive for ;)
(And this whole reply is in good humor folks!) |
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