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 02/23/2007 10:57:06 AM · #151
Originally posted by justamistere:
So am I assuming correctly that some things can be altered by transfer software without the Date-Time EXIF data changing?

I hope that's not the case, otherwise how can we tell if something was changed or not.

I know some graphics software rotate thumbnail copies of images for viewing. Some don't alter the file, only the thumbnail image collections. I sure hope I'm safe with using Adobe Bridge with it's setting set to auto rotate.

I think there is an auto rotate setting in my camera menu system, too. That's probably where a flag gets marked as Horizontal/Landscape or Vertical/Portrait orientation. There must be an internal leveling system for the camera to determine this.

I will send an email to Adobe inquiring about thier Bridge graphics browser software. I would suggest for all users to contact their software manufacturers to verify if thumbnail rotation or anything else will alter the file and it's EXIF data. They're paid to answer such questions and have the specific knowledge.


Could Clubjuggle or Kirkbic please reply to my question I posted here yesterday. Thanks.
 02/23/2007 11:16:27 AM · #152
After reading all this discussion, it would seem that one could save a lot of time and exasperation by just investing in a card reader and disabling anything on their computer that offers to automatically download their photos---that includes windows, and any third party software. Then, just copy your originals to one folder where you can find them again when and if you need them and put a second copy in another folder to work on. This avoids any possible manipulation of the exif data if you don't know what your software does to it. You can always go back in and delete the originals you don't want once you've played with the working copies and gotten rid of the ones you don't want to keep. This may involve more steps than some of you want, but it seems to work.
 02/23/2007 11:34:39 AM · #153
I guess no IPTC keyword/caption tagging of files then? Import is the time to do this. I shoot in raw+jpeg so its fine I guess for all but the minimal challenges where raw file isn't allowed. All my files get IPTC tagged at import as it is the only sane way to keep track of thousands of images.
 02/23/2007 12:48:56 PM · #154
[quote=justamistere] So am I assuming correctly that some things can be altered by transfer software without the Date-Time EXIF data changing?

I hope that's not the case, otherwise how can we tell if something was changed or not.

I cannot rule out that some software will do this. We have also seen at least one case where a transfer utility slightly corrupted the EXIF, rendering it readable in some applications but not others.

If you want to be sure, use the OS. If you want to send us before & after files, we'll be happy to look at them.

~Terry
 02/23/2007 01:04:46 PM · #155
Originally posted by karmat:
...and it is best not to use LMNOP...


Hey! Leave Elemmennope out of this! ;-)

~Terry
 02/23/2007 01:55:32 PM · #156
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by muckpond:

based on my test with a JPG in WinXP service pack 2, no, it does not invalidate the original.

however, as others have pointed out, it's really not a great thing to do for your photos:

Originally posted by hajeka:

Here's a small example why you shouldn't rotate with Windows Viewer.

Original: Rotated 100 times: Which one do you prefer?


I think you may want to do a retest.
If indeed the second picture passes your "orignal image test", then there is a problem with the test.
I can't for the life of me figure out how you could consider image 2 an "original".
Please elaborate.


I tried this with one of my images and saw no change from beginning to end, nor did the date and time editted change. I'm not quite sure what went wrong with this image.
 02/23/2007 02:20:10 PM · #157
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

The ONLY approved method for preserving JPEG originals is to copy the files via the operating system, as outlined in the "Guidelines for Preserving Your Challenge Entry Originals" section of the original post. All other methods are untested, unsupprted, and at your own risk.


Though for now, it sounds like Vista is trashing Nikon RAW files if you preview them in the OS, so even the OS only path can be somewhat suspect on occasion.

We are only talking about copying the file, not previewing it. If the OS can't copy a file intact from one piece of media to another, then the whole system of computing falls apart.

Anything which accesses the data (opens the file) in any way runs the risk of altering the file when it is closed.

I simply copy the files from the card (in a card reader) to a folder on the hard drive, and then always work on a copy when editing. I also leave the images on the card until I have burned a CD of the files on the hard drive, so that I always have two copies of the original file in existence somewhere.

Once file is on CD, there's a "permanent" original which can't be changed. When (or before) you copy the files from the card to the hard drive, you can also set the Properties to "Read-Only" (Windows) or "Lock" the file in the File Info dialog box (Mac); then you should prevented from accidentally overwriting the original data.
 02/23/2007 02:35:05 PM · #158
Originally posted by GeneralE:

We are only talking about copying the file, not previewing it. If the OS can't copy a file intact from one piece of media to another, then the whole system of computing falls apart.

Anything which accesses the data (opens the file) in any way runs the risk of altering the file when it is closed.


yes - and the bit in bold above describes the process of copying a file, just as much as previewing it. You have to open it and read the data to copy it. You then create a new file somewhere else and write the data into it. You can hope the copy process doesn't do something like generate thumbnails and screw the file up, but apparently some OSes can't even be trusted to do that. Though in this case it does appear to be Nikon that are corrupting their own files with their OS plugin.

Seems like if you use the Vista camera wizard to copy Nikon files to the computer, they get corrupted so they only work in the Nikon software, but not Photoshop. Nice one.

Message edited by author 2007-02-23 14:38:10.
 02/23/2007 05:01:46 PM · #159
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
[quote=justamistere] So am I assuming correctly that some things can be altered by transfer software without the Date-Time EXIF data changing?

I hope that's not the case, otherwise how can we tell if something was changed or not.

I cannot rule out that some software will do this. We have also seen at least one case where a transfer utility slightly corrupted the EXIF, rendering it readable in some applications but not others.

If you want to be sure, use the OS. If you want to send us before & after files, we'll be happy to look at them.

~Terry

Okay, Thanks for the reply, my standard workflow has been as follows:
1) Copy to a subfolder called "_Originals", using three copies of the Windows hard-drive explorer.

2) Preview that "_Originals", folder in Adobe bridge, and delete any not needed, and ONLY-COPY, (no raw editing here), to another folder called "1st-Picks", where I start the editing and elimination process.

The only problem may be that I have set Adobe Bridge set to Auto-Rotate the Vertical shots. So you're saying we should not do this?
 02/23/2007 05:27:22 PM · #160
Originally posted by justamistere:
The only problem may be that I have set Adobe Bridge set to Auto-Rotate the Vertical shots. So you're saying we should not do this?


if you're shooting in RAW then it should not matter. your camera (and most) set a bit that says whether or not the image should be viewed vertically or horizontally.

bridge and other applications just look at that bit to decide how to display the image to you. the auto-rotate isn't changing the file -- it's displaying it in a manner based on the data that already exists within the file.
 02/24/2007 10:16:46 PM · #161
Originally posted by Artyste:
[quote=fir3bird] [quote=hajeka]
It isn't absurd if you just gave up on the transfer software to begin with.. It's actually safer and easier on your camera to just invest in a card reader and have done with it. That way you just cut/paste all your photo, save wear and tear on your camera's USB connector, and ensure you never worry about whether or not your photo has been altered for DPC :)


Unless of course you bend a pin by removing and replacing you card all the time.

Just a thought.
 02/24/2007 10:26:28 PM · #162
Originally posted by Baron152:
Unless of course you bend a pin by removing and replacing you card all the time.


There was a recent question about that in Popular Photography magazine, and the response was that it's extremely difficult to bend a pin with a card reader in normal use. There would have to be a foreign object stuck in there somewhere to force the pins off path. Personally I'd MUCH rather have to replace a card than a camera part!
 02/24/2007 10:32:41 PM · #163
Bending a pin is easier with some cameras than others; I've bent a pin on my trusty ol' Nikon 995, but was able to tweak it back into place. It's much harder to do on more recent cameras that better insure proper insertion (it was possible to insert a card rotated 180 degrees on the 995). FWIW, there are quality differences in cards as well. Tolerances can be loose on cheaper cards, leading to potential for misalignment and bent pins.
 02/24/2007 10:54:33 PM · #164
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Baron152:
Unless of course you bend a pin by removing and replacing you card all the time.


There was a recent question about that in Popular Photography magazine, and the response was that it's extremely difficult to bend a pin with a card reader in normal use. There would have to be a foreign object stuck in there somewhere to force the pins off path. Personally I'd MUCH rather have to replace a card than a camera part!


I was referring to a post a few months ago in which one of the members had bent a pin in his Canon (I believe) camera and it was a fairly expensive repair. It seemed like there were a few others with the same story.

I just wanted everyone to be aware of a potential problem, especially if they have never (or very seldom have) removed their card.

I believe that this is the link Bent Pins

Message edited by author 2007-02-24 22:59:53.
 02/27/2007 02:55:47 PM · #165
What about TIFF images are they originals? and I don't use transfer software to upload my pics from my camera to my computer I just drop and drag into a folder designated for pictures...it's uploaded from the my computer part and it's a seperate removeable drive...

Message edited by author 2007-02-27 14:56:07.
 02/27/2007 03:00:32 PM · #166
If your camera can save in the TIFF format, then it could be an original.
 02/27/2007 03:34:57 PM · #167
these transfer programs...how much does it change the photo from camera to computer? I just upload my photos from my disk. I don't use a transfer program, so that should mean my photos are valid.

g
 02/28/2007 07:43:47 AM · #168
If things keep going in the same direction, by this time next year the rules will state that we have to keep the picture on the card and send the entire card in for verification, along with the camera we shot with and a notarized letter stating that we are who we say we are, plus a copy of our birth certificate or passport, and our first born....

I appreciate the need for verification but am disappointed that new measures are needed all the time... If only all of the members were as trustworthy as most are...

At some point this week I will probably send a sample image to check on my method.
 02/28/2007 07:49:05 AM · #169
give the guys a break. The professionalism of SC and its strict enforcement of clear and just rules are one of the strong point of the site - and the guarantee for everyone to keep having fun.

This is nothing new, just a good clarification. Having myself nearly lost my only ribbon due to misunderstanding of the rules, I always welcome a good clarification, and this should be linked to in the "rules" section.

02/28/2007 05:23:34 PM · #170
I agree with "mouten", clarification is a good thing. Of course, it can also be taken to extremes, but in this case it is a necessary bit of info to bring up. It is called "equality for fairness". Having proof of the original shot is the only way to make sure that, especially in basic editing, that what we see is actually what the camera saw. There are so many things that can be done now using Photoshop and other like programs that it isn't fair to the ones sticking to the rules to possibly be beaten by someone who thinks that 'bending the rules a little' is okay.

One of the best things about this site is that the rules are adhered to and exceptions to the rules are almost non-existent. This is what makes me confident that when I enter a picture to a challenge that those that I am competing with, although with different and possibly better cameras than mine, have to do things the same way as I am no matter what their expertise or knowledge level is. A level playing field.

As for myself, outstanding addition to the rules. DPC just keeps getting better!

02/28/2007 05:25:55 PM · #171
Originally posted by Dantzr:
As for myself, outstanding addition to the rules. DPC just keeps getting better!

Agreed.
 03/20/2007 03:42:44 PM · #172
ok...so all this talk about having an original...how can you tell if it was rotated or not? is there some sort of code inside the picture or something??? just send in the saved rotated one and what are they going to do just open in photoshop create an action to rotate all 90 degrees and select the pics you want to be rotated and save and its a rotated original ...idk maybe theres something im missing here
 03/20/2007 03:47:11 PM · #173
Saving ANYTHING in Photoshop is not an original. The file must be exactly as it was recorded by the camera on your flash media card. Hint; your camera's sensor is horizontal, so if your "original" in portrait orientation, it has been rotated.
 03/20/2007 05:20:04 PM · #174
Just out of curiosity, what do you do with the originals after they are validated? Do you delete them?
03/20/2007 05:46:54 PM · #175
Originally posted by Tlemetry:
Just out of curiosity, what do you do with the originals after they are validated? Do you delete them?


we post them as our own work on other websites. shannon's made over $12K in stock sales from kiwi's photos alone. :P
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