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10/26/2009 06:17:30 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
I tested it just now, because I always used a relatively hidden option to save the changes in a "changes"-file. When you open a NEF in Nikon Capture and hit "Save", it will save as a NEF and over the original. So I end up with a changed file. Not DPC safe. :) |
Wow. That's scary. Not just from a DPC point of view, either...
R. |
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10/26/2009 05:50:35 PM · #2 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm not aware of any downloading or editing program that actually modifies the RAW file itself...
They may exist, but I haven't heard of them....
R. |
Nikon Capture 4 does it.
And Nikon Capture NX for sure does it.
(Only when you save the file of course) |
But don't those save the file as a DNG? And isn't the original NEF or CRW still intact?
R. |
I tested it just now, because I always used a relatively hidden option to save the changes in a "changes"-file. When you open a NEF in Nikon Capture and hit "Save", it will save as a NEF and over the original. So I end up with a changed file. Not DPC safe. :)
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10/26/2009 05:09:27 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm not aware of any downloading or editing program that actually modifies the RAW file itself...
They may exist, but I haven't heard of them....
R. |
Nikon Capture 4 does it.
And Nikon Capture NX for sure does it.
(Only when you save the file of course) |
But don't those save the file as a DNG? And isn't the original NEF or CRW still intact?
R. |
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10/26/2009 04:57:12 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
If you make changes to the RAW file with Adobe's camera RAW (Bridge?), it keeps those changes, but are those a sidecar thingie? Whenever I do make changes to the RAW file before importing it into PS, I do so to a copy by using the "alt-Open" option rather than just "open" if any of that makes sense... |
I don't make copies of my RAW files (although I'm working in Elements, not CS4), and I've submitted a couple of RAW files that have all been validated... |
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10/26/2009 04:56:07 PM · #5 |
Why isn't there a link to this thread on the rules page? or a link to the unofficial newbies guide? I feel so bad for Jutilda at the moment, and I went through the same thing (though not on a blue, but on a 6.8 shot, when I previously hadn't had anything over 6.0. After I was DQd, I did some statistics. Even though I don't remember the number, the rule of having the original has, by far, the largest number of DQs.
After my DQ I tried to search for information and never did find this. I was trying so hard to follow the rules. I was not writing over the original--I was doing a Save As, which should leave the original untouched, so I thought... Anyway, the way I have Elements set up, doing a Save As changed the original. This is not intuitively obvious. Neither is it obvious that rotating when you preview would change the original. The one sentence they have "Files that have been saved or altered with any editing or transfer software are NOT originals. DNG files are not considered originals unless recorded in that format by the camera" just isn't enough
please, please, SC (and I've begged for this before) SAVE PEOPLE THE FRUSTRATION OF LEARNING THE HARD WAY! Talk Langdon into putting links that will further explain things like this! You shouldn't have to go search for it!
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10/26/2009 04:24:46 PM · #6 |
| If you make changes to the RAW file with Adobe's camera RAW (Bridge?), it keeps those changes, but are those a sidecar thingie? Whenever I do make changes to the RAW file before importing it into PS, I do so to a copy by using the "alt-Open" option rather than just "open" if any of that makes sense... |
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10/26/2009 04:04:51 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm not aware of any downloading or editing program that actually modifies the RAW file itself...
They may exist, but I haven't heard of them....
R. |
Nikon Capture 4 does it.
And Nikon Capture NX for sure does it.
(Only when you save the file of course)
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10/26/2009 03:13:23 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
I always recopy my submissions with a straight DOS copy because I am worried Lightroom edits the file. (I had the MS RAW previewer and that's why I use the DOS copy). I know it "shouldn't" touch the original but I really want to know for sure on this because I could skip the recopy step |
In principle, an original, RAW file can't be altered; the software creates "sidecar" files that tell the various programs how to *display* this RAW file and leave the file itself untouched. When you work on this RAW file in Photoshop, and go to save it, it saved as a PSD file unless you instruct it otherwise (JPG and TIFF and so forth are other options) but the original, RAW file is still untouched.
I'm not aware of any downloading or editing program that actually modifies the RAW file itself...
They may exist, but I haven't heard of them....
R. |
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10/26/2009 02:19:52 PM · #9 |
I always recopy my submissions with a straight DOS copy because I am worried Lightroom edits the file. (I had the MS RAW previewer and that's why I use the DOS copy). I know it "shouldn't" touch the original but I really want to know for sure on this because I could skip the recopy step
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10/26/2009 02:16:24 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by rider:
just wondering ---have been importing my raw files thru lightroom for the 7 D since the raw converter is a beta does this matter?and should i be bringing them in with dpp? |
As long as you are not converting to DNG you should be fine. |
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10/26/2009 01:04:55 PM · #11 |
| if you shot in raw and give us the raw, it shouldn't matter, at least that is my understanding. |
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10/26/2009 12:35:09 PM · #12 |
| just wondering ---have been importing my raw files thru lightroom for the 7 D since the raw converter is a beta does this matter?and should i be bringing them in with dpp? |
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10/26/2009 12:24:41 PM · #13 |
This thread has been quiet for a little over 2 years now...bump for any newbies out there. :-)
Originally posted by muckpond:
Hi --
As stated in the rulesets, when originals of your challenge entries are requested they must be completely untouched by any kind of transfer or editing software.
We will be strictly enforcing this rule from this point on, so we have created a set of guidelines for you to use. Please respond in this thread if you have questions, and Contact Us if you have specific questions about your workflow and its impact on your image files.
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Guidelines for Preserving Your Challenge Entry Originals
If you shoot in JPEG:
JPEG images which have been modified in any way by transfer software are NOT considered valid originals. "Transfer Software" includes, but is not limited to, applications such as iPhoto, ACDSee, Nikon Transfer, and Windows Vista Import. This doesn't mean you can't use such applications, but it is your responsibility to make sure the files remain exactly as they were recorded by your camera. Generally speaking, if you hit "save" at any point you are altering the file, but these applications and others can sometimes modify your files on import. Once a file has been changed, there is no way to determine whether the "original" has been illegally edited, so this policy is critical to ensure the integrity of the challenge results.
The easiest way to ensure your files are valid originals is to ignore any dialog boxes that appear when you attach your card or your camera. Find the files' original source (either a drive letter or a disk icon that appears on your desktop), and manually move any files that are potential challenge entries to your computer. Then always work on a copy of the file when you are post-processing.
If you shoot in RAW:
Transfer software does not affect the original image data of a RAW file. Therefore, RAW files moved by transfer software are valid originals. Note that you must submit a RAW proof file when requested. A JPEG saved from the original RAW is not sufficient.
If you shoot in JPEG + RAW you may submit either version of the file when requested. However, the JPEG must not be altered by any transfer software. RAW files are always preferable if they are available.
Remember that RAW files are never valid originals for challenges using the Minimal Editing ruleset.
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If you are ever in doubt of your workflow, please use the Contact Us page to submit your question to the Site Council. We can work with you to ensure that you are preserving your image's integrity.
Please note that going forward we will not allow any exceptions to this rule -- it will be enforced as strictly as the challenge date rule.
Thank you for understanding our position. |
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09/27/2007 11:49:01 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Windows has its own meta-type data which it uses to create a modified date. It's how it sorts by "Date Modified" and applies to any Windows file I think. It does not store this data in the EXIF. |
Thanks Ben. I just sent a ticket with a file as described to double-check. Sorry about the file size - dang things are 18MB now! :)
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09/27/2007 11:37:53 PM · #15 |
Windows has its own meta-type data which it uses to create a modified date. It's how it sorts by "Date Modified" and applies to any Windows file I think. It does not store this data in the EXIF.
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09/27/2007 11:22:46 PM · #16 |
Dangit! I'm worried now after reading thru some of this.
I just bought a Sony A700 and I've been using software provided with the camera to handle the RAW files. Fortunately I've not done anything regarding challenge entries yet, but working on a side challenge I noticed that the RAW files show a date modified that's different from the actual created date when I view the folder I've put them in using Windows Explorer.
Here's the workflow.
CF card - card reader - Windows Explorer - drag & drop files from CF card to a folder on PC hard drive. All ok at this point (no date modified change on RAW files).
Next, open the folder using Sony's Image Data Lightbox (IDL) SR application. With this application I can view the RAW files and give them a rating (1 thru 5 stars). After sorting and rating, the files I want to edit I use an IDL menu option to open the file in Sony's Image Data Converter (IDC) SR application. Here the RAW file can be tweaked, white balance, etc...then sent to PSP X2 using a IDC menu option. When the converted file opens in PSP X2 it's a copy of the original.
In testing this to see where the change is being applied it appears to be happening after making the ratings in the IDL application. I have some files I didn't rate and in Windows Explorer the Date Modified matches the original Date Created.
Strange thing is, when I look at the EXIF for any of the RAW files that show a Modified Date change in Windows Explorer, the Image Created and Last Modified dates are the original dates (the modified date isn't matching what Windows Explorer is showing me). It appears that nothing in EXIF has been modified.
BTW - I'm very careful in using Save As, but in the outlined workflow there has been nothing to 'Save' yet.
What's up?! Anybody familiar with this?
Thanks.
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09/19/2007 10:00:56 AM · #17 |
| I didn't read all the posts but i always do the same process ---could i just send 1 of my orignals and have it verified? |
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09/19/2007 09:53:32 AM · #18 |
| I shoot in JPEG and transfer my files to the computer by inserting the image card from the camera into the computer, click on Move the selected items, and end up with all the pictures in a new folder on the computer's hard disc. Is this OK? |
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07/12/2007 03:34:24 PM · #19 |
Thanks levyj, scalvert, and noraneko, much appreciated and very helpful
noraneko
Canon EOS-20D 07/12/2007 12:54:45 PM
Linda, Can you make a copy of the original and open the copy instead? That way the original is never opened unless needed for validation?
Yes, I can do that and usually that is how I work. If I double click an image in iPhoto it opens in PS, and I work on that, I rarely use the originals, thanks again, much appreciated...:)
scalvert
Canon EOS-20D 07/12/2007 01:02:47 PM
Linda, if you're using iPhoto, there should be no need to look for the original unless it's requested for validation. You can "Open in External Editor" directly from iPhoto or export your image and then open that copy in Photoshop to work on it, and your original will be safe.* If an original is requested, just locate the file in iPhoto's Originals folder and upload it as-is (there's no reason to open it).
Thank you scalvert, Ok, I think I got it now, so I'm thinking based on what levy said too, that I'm just going to browse my computer and select the original image to be uploaded...haha...see there's hope for us...:) thanks again.
Levy, thank you again. I don't think I have anything to be voted on, but I'm still trying to find my way around, and I will keep that form in mind and check it out when I can, that's great to know. And I guess I won't worry about this until the time comes, I do appreciate all of your help, I feel more comfortable about the process now...thank you all once again...Linda
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07/12/2007 02:02:00 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by lindabique:
And how is it sized and saved to upload, or send via email for validation?
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Two different questions could come out of what you asked:
1) How is it resized and uploaded to enter into a challenge?
Copy the original and open the copy in whatever software you want, edit it under the rules, resize, and upload.
2) How is it resized and uploaded for validation?
It's not. Don't do ANYTHING to the original when submitting for validation: don't resize, rotate, or anything. Just upload the original file that's never been opened.
Now, since you're new, note that it's rare to be asked for the original. That is, keep it around, but don't think you need to get every entry validated. You'll get a note from the Site Council asking you for your original if so.
Also, you don't email originals, you upload them into a special form. To see it, go to any entry you currently have in voting and look below the comments section for where it says to submit the original if you'll be away. Click the link in that paragraph to see the submission form.
If you're asked for validation, the message will give you a link straight to the form for your shot.
Message edited by author 2007-07-12 14:05:40.
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07/12/2007 01:02:47 PM · #21 |
Linda, if you're using iPhoto, there should be no need to look for the original unless it's requested for validation. You can "Open in External Editor" directly from iPhoto or export your image and then open that copy in Photoshop to work on it, and your original will be safe.* If an original is requested, just locate the file in iPhoto's Originals folder and upload it as-is (there's no reason to open it).
*...unless your hard drive dies. Backups are always recommended.
Message edited by author 2007-07-12 13:29:06. |
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07/12/2007 12:54:45 PM · #22 |
| Linda, Can you make a copy of the original and open the copy instead? That way the original is never opened unless needed for validation? |
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07/12/2007 12:50:54 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by skewsme:
Why not post a list of transfer software that, when used correctly, will not alter the exif or original file (e.g. canon camera window)? |
Because most (maybe all) transfer software CAN alter files in certain situations. For example, if you're using a Mac, the default way to import photos is through iPhoto. You could also simply drag them off the media card mounted on your desktop or use the software that came with your camera, but iPhoto is the default. Now, iPhoto automatically saves a copy of your original file whenever any change is made, BUT it's not always obvious that you changed something...
If you shot a photo in portrait mode with a camera that can auto-rotate images, iPhoto will automatically rotate your images on import and save the unrotated original as a backup. What many people don't expect is that when you Revert to Original, iPhoto calls up the original file and helpfully rotates it again, so it's still modified even though you may think it's the original. If we look at the EXIF data on such a file, there's no way for us to know if the file was merely auto-rotated or if you did a Photoshop war dance on it and then imported/exported through iPhoto. Obviously, we can't acccept that.
The solution is easy for Mac users: just manually locate the file within the Originals folder of your iPhoto Library. This doesn't change anything as far as workflow. It's simply a matter of knowing where the "real" original is located if you need to send it in for validation. Each applications will have its own issues, and it's a good idea to know what your software is doing with your files regardless of whether they're for DPC. |
Hello, I'm new to your site, and of course, find the challenges interesting and would like to participate. However, after reading 3 pages of this thread, sorry, but I can't read anymore, and especially since I don't think I know any more than when I started, because I still don't get it, and particularly as pertaining to the last paragraph above.
I use a Canon 20D and work on a Mac which uses iPhoto, as the default program as you stated, to upload my images. I can manually locate the original image in my iPhoto library, which has NOT been rotated, but the moment I click on it, it opens in CS3 raw and is rotated, so I apologize in advance, and I know it's probably my fault, just tupid I guess, I know I'm just missing something;
But how do I open it without that happening?
I have Preview on my machine as well but it also rotates it.
And how is it sized and saved to upload, or send via email for validation?
Are you saying that we need new or different software?
Thank you for your response, forgive the tupid's, we have to live too you know!! Linda |
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06/10/2007 06:09:07 PM · #24 |
Author Thread
wavelength
Nikon D200 06/07/2007 10:23:36 PM
Did anyone ever look into the EXIF data of Picasa imported files to see if they remain legal?
I know if you try to tag your files you'll add data also, but I'm not sure of whether it does that on import.
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 22:23:50.
MelonMusketeer
Fujifilm FinePix S3 Pro 05/28/2007 05:37:01 PM
Anyone have a simple step by step solution for Mac users? Can we just keep the image on the CF card from the camera until after voting is over, and by inserting the card in a card reader, use the DPC "upload the original" link to select it for upload from the card directly?
A second question is; Does it modify the original file to lock and unlock it with the camera that took the image, or does that change the exif "modified" time stamp?
It would be handy if I could just lock the entry image, and erase the rest, but not format the card. That way I could keep shooting with the card until it is safe to delete the oirginal. If it was necessary to upload the original, it would be easy to unlock it in camera first. If no one knows, I will experiment and try to find out if the exif "modified" time changes.
ditto-
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06/07/2007 10:23:36 PM · #25 |
Did anyone ever look into the EXIF data of Picasa imported files to see if they remain legal?
I know if you try to tag your files you'll add data also, but I'm not sure of whether it does that on import.
Message edited by author 2007-06-07 22:23:50. |
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