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06/19/2003 05:26:12 PM · #26
Originally posted by K-Rob:

I'm not sure I like the idea of allowing more editing. It's hard enough competing around here without the top photographers having access to relaxed editing. It would be darn near inmpossible with the Pro's out there doing there thing. Heck, I'm sure some of you guys do it for a living. If it is allowed though, I guess I'll just have to get better in order to compete. We'll see.


That's true. We should probably make the higher ranking photographers submit their photos right out of the camera to help make it fare for everyone.
06/19/2003 05:28:06 PM · #27
With the figures running at only about 33% for additional editing rules, I don't think we have to worry any.
06/19/2003 05:30:51 PM · #28
Originally posted by magnetic9999:

What are you so afraid of? :)

Originally posted by Jak:

The numbers are currently running at more than 2 to 1 against changes to the regular weekly challenges. I sure hope this puts an end to the debate for at least another 12 months.


I'm afraid of taxes, Mag, that's about it. I really don't understand what your question was about. I was merely stating my hope that, when the vast majority votes once again to retain the current rules for regular challenges that the debates can stop for a while and we can concentrate on taking pictures. :)

Message edited by author 2003-06-19 17:31:50.
06/19/2003 05:37:11 PM · #29
My last two challenge entries could have definately used the ability to dodge and spot edit. The only criticism I have recieved is on the two things that would have been oh so easy to fix! In neither instance was it possible to reshoot. So, should I just not submit? Or submit it so everyone can point out the obvious flaw that I already know about but have little option but to live with..... I think alot of people here really still do not understand that these things can help make us all better image makers. I have to say it's rather frustrating. And it would not result in the sinister antics that some people think would occur. I will live with the decision regardless of what it is, but I think it is a bit limiting..... of course the things I would like to spot edit no-one would pic up on anyway..... so perhaps I should simply say nothing and spot edit to my hearts content.
06/19/2003 05:42:54 PM · #30
Jak, once again I have to question your ever-so-slightly-biased interpretation of the numbers.

39 of 225 voters want to keep things the same. Vast majority?

*Only* about 33% for additional editing rules? In a 3 way poll?

Again, by manipulating the figures to one viewpoint, you could happily argue that 83% don't want the rules to remain as they are.
06/19/2003 06:14:41 PM · #31
They should have had a "I couldn't care less" option on the poll. I think this site will continue to be excellent no matter what changes occur. I'm not too hung up on the challenge rules, but I think it's nice that the administrators are taking time to adress the issue and especially nice of them to add an extra open-editing challenge.
06/19/2003 06:43:44 PM · #32
Well.. You, of all people, have been particularly vocal in your opposition of any incremental evolution of the site. For no reason that's immediately apparent to me: hence my question.

You purport to already like the site. Well, this site that you like so much didn't happen by accident. It didn't just magically pop out of the internet firmament :).

This site is the way it is because of the founders and the volunteer helpers (the site council). DPC has gone through many evolutions and shifts over the past 1.25 years I've been associated with it. These evolutions were always aimed towards making the site a better place for all. Some changes, which were unpopular, were undone (like for example requiring people to vote on 100% of the entries), while other changes for the better, remained in effect.

So if you like this site so much, it's just sort of surprising and disconcerting, not to mention disappointing, that you wouldn't trust the people who brought it to you to continue in the same vein to develop and improve it, in a way that's going to make it work better and better for more people.

In fact, anyone who likes this site the way it is now, should realize that site got to be so good because of the people who have been working tirelessly on ideas to make it the best internet photography site that it could be.

Those people have earned your trust. So don't fear the unknown. Trust that the site admins want to do the best by you that they can. Some things we can't know if we like them until we've tried them, but if we never try them, we'll never know if they would have made things better.



Originally posted by Jak:

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

What are you so afraid of? :)

Originally posted by Jak:

The numbers are currently running at more than 2 to 1 against changes to the regular weekly challenges. I sure hope this puts an end to the debate for at least another 12 months.


I'm afraid of taxes, Mag, that's about it. I really don't understand what your question was about. I was merely stating my hope that, when the vast majority votes once again to retain the current rules for regular challenges that the debates can stop for a while and we can concentrate on taking pictures. :)

06/19/2003 06:44:12 PM · #33
Originally posted by JasonPR:

They should have had a "I couldn't care less" option on the poll. I think this site will continue to be excellent no matter what changes occur. I'm not too hung up on the challenge rules, but I think it's nice that the administrators are taking time to adress the issue and especially nice of them to add an extra open-editing challenge.

I actually wish there had only been two options - change vs no change. If one of the options is 'extra challenge' then it doesn't matter at all what the other two are - I can tell you which one will win by a mile every time.

Message edited by author 2003-06-19 18:45:18.
06/19/2003 07:50:28 PM · #34
Or, likely more accurately, the 83% were willing to compromise to the whiners so maybe the site would remain as near the same.

Tongue in cheek?


quote=Setzler
"That's true. We should probably make the higher ranking photographers submit their photos right out of the camera to help make it fare for everyone."
Originally posted by bod:

Jak, once again I have to question your ever-so-slightly-biased interpretation of the numbers.

39 of 225 voters want to keep things the same. Vast majority?

*Only* about 33% for additional editing rules? In a 3 way poll?

Again, by manipulating the figures to one viewpoint, you could happily argue that 83% don't want the rules to remain as they are.
06/19/2003 10:01:54 PM · #35
Originally posted by bod:

Jak, once again I have to question your ever-so-slightly-biased interpretation of the numbers.

39 of 225 voters want to keep things the same. Vast majority?

*Only* about 33% for additional editing rules? In a 3 way poll?

Again, by manipulating the figures to one viewpoint, you could happily argue that 83% don't want the rules to remain as they are.


This is a ridiculous interpretation, bod. As I type this, 182 votes are for keeping the regular challenges the way they are, while 70 votes want to change. I think that shows a MASSIVE majority for keeping the REGULAR challenges the way they are. You can try to skew this any way you want but facts are facts and votes are votes. Perhaps you just want to ignore the real wording of the middle option?

Message edited by author 2003-06-19 22:04:29.
06/19/2003 10:07:51 PM · #36
Originally posted by magnetic9999:

Those people have earned your trust. So don't fear the unknown. Trust that the site admins want to do the best by you that they can. Some things we can't know if we like them until we've tried them, but if we never try them, we'll never know if they would have made things better.


So, you are saying -- given that the majority, the vast majority -- are opposed to changing the rules for regular challenges, that we should discount the views of the majority of users and just "trust the admins" and the site council? You are saying that the vote is meaningless?



06/19/2003 10:12:21 PM · #37
First of all we must be seeing different numbers :)

I'm copying and pasting here what I see in my browser:

"To try and come to a consensus, select which one best suits your needs for DPChallenge--
Allow more editing techniques to be used in the weekly challenges
70 votes
Run an all-edits challenge every once in awhile to sooth my digital darkroom desires
136 votes
Things are fine now
46 votes "

Secondly, I think that you're missing my point below which is 'give new things a chance - particularly if they're proposed by a group that hasn't done you wrong before.'

Please think of a company that you like, that perhaps you respect and admire because of it's skill and innovative qualities - would that company be all that it is if it were only run by the consensus of the public? :)

Originally posted by Jak:

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

Those people have earned your trust. So don't fear the unknown. Trust that the site admins want to do the best by you that they can. Some things we can't know if we like them until we've tried them, but if we never try them, we'll never know if they would have made things better.


So, you are saying -- given that the majority, the vast majority -- are opposed to changing the rules for regular challenges, that we should discount the views of the majority of users and just "trust the admins" and the site council? You are saying that the vote is meaningless?


Message edited by author 2003-06-19 22:13:41.
06/19/2003 10:29:32 PM · #38
I find this amazing. not only can't we all agree to challenge rules, but even during a vote, we all interpret it differently.

well, my interpretation is that the majority of voters are against the first option, having picked the second or third ans there is also a plurality that has picked the second, which seemed like a nice compromise to me.


06/19/2003 10:42:05 PM · #39
Maybe I'm missing something, but i thought option 2 and 3 were darn near the same thing. Don't we already have an occational "ignore post shot adjustments rules" challenge? To me, this would be option 2. Then, if you look at it that way, it is how things already are, so it is also option 3. So, Maybe I'm confused on the poll. Option 2 IS the way things are. Occationally.
06/19/2003 10:43:49 PM · #40
These are the rules from digitalphotocontest.com, a popular site. these rules don't seem to result in a huge plethora of digital art.

(And before you say, 'well why dont you go there, then?' I'll say 'because I've put way too much time and energy into this site to be run off by those afraid of growth and evolution :)' )....

So read them and see if they don't make a lot of sense...

"Image Modifications

Cropping and Rotation: Images may be cropped and rotated as long as a rectangular format is maintained.

Resizing: Images may be resized as long as aspect ratio is maintained.

Borders and Frames: No borders or frames shall be added to images prior to submission. Borders are added by DPC to all entries upon submission.

Watermarks, Signatures, or Copyright Notices: These marks may be added to the photos to protect the photographer's copyright. Keep in mind, however, that excessively large, distracting watermarks may weaken your photo and thus hinder its chances of being selected as a winner.

Spot Editing, including Red-eye Removal: Spot editing refers to the application of a change or effect to a selected portion of a photo. Spot editing and red-eye removal are permitted for the purpose of improving the appearance of a photograph and to give it a more natural look.

Adding or Replacing Elements: Elements or objects that do not exist in the original photo shall not be added to an image. For example, you can not improve a sky by replacing it with a sky from another photograph.

Examples of Permitted Modifications - These modifications may be applied selectively or globally to all categories unless stated otherwise.

One-step enhancement (known in various software packages as Auto Levels, Enhance, Intellihance, Quick Fix, etc.)

Use of filters such as sharpen, unsharp mask, soften, blur, despeckle, JPG cleanup, and remove noise. These filters should not be used to the extent that they create a non-realistic or artistic effect.

Use of corrective functions such as levels, contrast, brightness, curves, gamma, intensity, tone, hue, saturation, desaturation, lightness, value (in HSV model), RGB color channel adjustment, color balance, and tint.

Use of the cloning or rubber stamp tool to remove minor blemishes and small, unwanted items such as power lines and debris that may spoil your composition.

Barrel distortion and pin-cushioning correction.

Keep in mind that the intent of any modification is to produce a more natural looking photograph rather than an obviously manipulated one, and judges will make their selections on this basis."

Message edited by author 2003-06-19 22:44:55.
06/20/2003 02:45:47 AM · #41
Originally posted by Jak:

This is a ridiculous interpretation, bod.

Indeed it is. If you read my posts properly you would have seen that it was intended to be that way. In the same way I find your interpretation just as biased.

Originally posted by Jak:

Perhaps you just want to ignore the real wording of the middle option?

Let's check the REAL wording of the second option shall we?

"Run an all-edits challenge every once in awhile to sooth my digital darkroom desires"

Where does that say "I am totally satisfied with the current rules"?
You can read that into it if you wish, but you can just as easily read it as "I am not satisfied with the current rules, but hey another challenge, I'll vote for that!". Both interpretations are false.

As far as I'm concerned the people who have selected the middle option haven't expressed an opinion on the current rules, only that they would like more challenges.
06/20/2003 04:26:31 AM · #42
I think there are several ways to interpret this poll....

The combination of 2 and 3 can be interpreted as 'keeping things the way they are now' because those things are already in place. We already run occasional challenges with unlimited editing restrictions.

My personal interpretation of this poll would exclude the results from the second option, and I would love to see what the results would be without option #2. I wonder how those people who have voted for #2 would have voted if 2 wasn't an available option.

Another interpretation of this poll could be that a very large majority of the voters want more editing options. Only 50 out of of 270 votes have voted to keep things as they are now. These results can be viewed either way.

06/20/2003 04:32:00 AM · #43
the only option i see is to remove number 2 from the list or simpy rephrase #2 so that it says that members will always get two challenges a week, one open editing and one not, since the way 2 is written now really doesn't clarify how often we will be getting the extra challenge; it could be once a week or once a year for all we know :)

Message edited by author 2003-06-20 04:32:32.
06/20/2003 05:51:25 AM · #44
#2 bothers me simply because I think it will move outside the realm of 'photography' fairly quickly. It bothers me even more because that is the one with the most votes. I can't decide if 'digital art' is what people want, or if they simply want 'occasional' unlimited editing for 'photography'.
06/20/2003 07:16:51 AM · #45
i think it means that the people who choose that think that having that option occur will placate those of us who want more editing latitude, while they miss the point altogether about finishing shots.

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

#2 bothers me simply because I think it will move outside the realm of 'photography' fairly quickly. It bothers me even more because that is the one with the most votes. I can't decide if 'digital art' is what people want, or if they simply want 'occasional' unlimited editing for 'photography'.

06/20/2003 08:59:44 AM · #46
Hi, I am new to the site and to digital photography. I enjoy the freedom of spot editing ( especially Dodge and Burn )that digital gives us without the expense of a fancy darkroom. I believe that "photography" is more than taking a shot with a camera, it is the final print that "says a thousand words".

Part of what I see this sight is about is learning. For me that is learning the art of taking a picture,lighting, composition, ect. I think it could and should include learning to use the tools that we ALL have available to us to improve those pictures.

Sure the Pros will have an advantage on us. Dont they already? They have the experience (and the equipment) to submit a great photo every time. Their scores will beat mine every time and I am happy for this. If my scores were that high I would have nothing left to learn (and I would probably be competing on a site that offered prizes, or simply selling them outright for lots of money:) I value their submitions as learning tools.

As far as over editing goes, it is up to us to decide if the submission is over edited. If it loses meaning because it is manipulated than it will be voted lower. If the post editing adds to a photograph it will score higher.

Guess this should have been posted in the Rant forum. Sorry. Regardless of the outcome I am very pleased with the site and am looking forward to becoming a better photographer because of it. Thanks for the good work.

Mark
06/20/2003 01:42:03 PM · #47
Originally posted by magnetic9999:

i think it means that the people who choose that think that having that option occur will placate those of us who want more editing latitude, while they miss the point altogether about finishing shots.


Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always...
06/20/2003 02:21:34 PM · #48
Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

i think it means that the people who choose that think that having that option occur will placate those of us who want more editing latitude, while they miss the point altogether about finishing shots.


Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always...


maybe, but the second poll option entirely misses the point of the original discussion, so its a fairly safe bet.
06/20/2003 02:25:31 PM · #49
Originally posted by mk:

Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always...


Hear, hear! Let's hear it for the intelligence of the majority who can very well understand what "once in a while" means.
06/20/2003 02:37:26 PM · #50
Originally posted by Jak:

Originally posted by mk:

Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always...


Hear, hear! Let's hear it for the intelligence of the majority who can very well understand what "once in a while" means.


Always liked this quote from a well known defender of the democractic process:

" The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. " - Sir Winston Churchill

Don't quite know why it popped into my head just now
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