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01/29/2007 07:10:13 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
A zoo is a natural environment for any animal that lives there. |
So is an abattoir for cattle at slaughter. |
The difference there is that a cow is considered by most to be a domesticated animal.
The challenge is more often than not to get the viewer to believe that you met the criteria. If it looked convincing and scored well, I wouldn't be upset if someone took a photo of a life-like love doll for Nude IV. I'd actually consider it a tribute the the photographer's talent.
Likewise, I am not at all upset that voters were led to believe that the zoo photos were shot in "natural" environments.
Now, even if it were a DQable offense to not meet the challenge, how would you propose SC enforce such a thing? How could they prove a photo was shot in a zoo, other than by the photog's own confession? You want GPS coordinates?
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 19:11:13.
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01/29/2007 07:47:03 PM · #27 |
I had been out of town prior to the challenge deadline. While I looked for an opportunity when I was gone (had camera with me) nothing materialized. Upon returning (last day of challenge deadline) I sat in my warm cozy house while it snowed outside. Outside the large bay window sits a bird feeder. Considering the weather the birds were quite active. So I sit with my tripod mounted camera and a 70-300 lens. The bird is outside in the weather, in it's "natural environment".
DNMC or not? :D |
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01/29/2007 08:07:19 PM · #28 |
| Photography is not the same as reality. The challenge is to create an image, not to document. We distort reality routinely with crop, levels, curves, saturation, cloning, and neat image. If you can create a convincing image of a lion, jumping out of the tall grass, about to sever your jugular, that's great. If you do it in the wild, or at the zoo, or even in your basement....that's fine with me. |
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01/29/2007 08:27:01 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Photography is not the same as reality. The challenge is to create an image, not to document. We distort reality routinely with crop, levels, curves, saturation, cloning, and neat image. If you can create a convincing image of a lion, jumping out of the tall grass, about to sever your jugular, that's great. If you do it in the wild, or at the zoo, or even in your basement....that's fine with me. |
Though I agree with you about the creation of the image, how does this differ from the following scenario:
Single Light Source challenge: Instead of using a single light source, create the same effect utilizing a photoshop filter which will create the same result without the use of a physical light. The result is the same though the documentation reveals contravention of the "spirit" of the challenge.
I also concur the challenge description is not a rigid as "the rules", but how is the blatant deviation acceptable and justifiable simply because someone took a deceptive shortcut and furthermore, openly documented it??? The description clearly requested this deception not take place in an effort to challenge whomever to seek out and capture wildlife in its natural environment. I can hardly call zoo animals wild when they are dependant upon zoo keepers for food, protection or otherwise. |
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01/29/2007 08:47:35 PM · #30 |
Hey Barry, the challenge didn't state the photographer had to be in a natural environment, just the subject.....Lol Great shot!!! Fully qualifies in the spirit of the challenge. I'm one of the dummies that went out in 24degree weather......Lol
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I had been out of town prior to the challenge deadline. While I looked for an opportunity when I was gone (had camera with me) nothing materialized. Upon returning (last day of challenge deadline) I sat in my warm cozy house while it snowed outside. Outside the large bay window sits a bird feeder. Considering the weather the birds were quite active. So I sit with my tripod mounted camera and a 70-300 lens. The bird is outside in the weather, in it's "natural environment".
DNMC or not? :D |
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01/29/2007 08:48:37 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I had been out of town prior to the challenge deadline. While I looked for an opportunity when I was gone (had camera with me) nothing materialized. Upon returning (last day of challenge deadline) I sat in my warm cozy house while it snowed outside. Outside the large bay window sits a bird feeder. Considering the weather the birds were quite active. So I sit with my tripod mounted camera and a 70-300 lens. The bird is outside in the weather, in it's "natural environment".
DNMC or not? :D |
lol
Okay. I confess. I opened my window, though, and leaned out with my 500mm handheld when I saw those four birds in the tree in my side yard. ;) |
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01/29/2007 08:58:08 PM · #32 |
To me the challenge was "wild" animals in their natural "native' environment. So, even though there were wonderful shots of wild animals, if they were not in natural habitat, I gave low scores. I knew the beautiful face of the lynx shot was in a zoo, because wildlife photographers would know to have the most importat part of the cat in the frame (the pointed ears, otherwise it looks like a bobcat) So, I gave the shot a 4, because I couldn't prove it wasn't wild.
All the tiger and bear shots in the challenge got 1s from me, since I know even to see an orange flash in the wild would be rare, thus non-wild in non-natural habitat otr they are hibernating. As a wildlife biologist, I get tired of folks try to do a Slick Will thing "depends on what is is" thing, to justify they obvious disregard of the spirit of a challenge. Just my crusty ole thoughts. Van
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 20:59:24. |
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01/29/2007 09:03:57 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Unless special rules are in effect, image is everything. The task is to communicate the challenge description to your audience in a photo. An image that appears to meet the challenge (but really didn't) will generally outscore an image that doesn't appear to meet the challenge (even if it did). |
Ummm...if you explain it slow, I'll get it quick...;-)
"Seriously" though, I'm entirely confused why this topic of the "natural" environment even exists? Cleary, this challenge provided a unique opportunity for the photographers to capture what are generally recoqnized as a "wild" animals (obviously not my "wild" blue-eyed cat napping on the kitchen table) and display their incredible talents to create some awesomely amazing photos. How the photographer defines that natural environment should be up to the photographer's discretion, and up to the voter to agree or disagree with the natural quality and whether it meets the challenge. I promise you if I take a picture of a fox, you will all happily give me a 5 (if I'm lucky!), but if  Ivory takes a picture of a fox...you all will give her the ribbon she absolutely deserves. Is this challenge about environment or the elements of magnificent photography?
Why isn't this issue a matter of plain old common sense? Otherwise, wouldn't this challenge exist only for those who are on safari in Africa or some other exotic "wild" environment?!
Well, that's my two cents...::Wanders back to the peanut gallery:: |
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01/29/2007 09:05:48 PM · #34 |
| Not necessarily so, wildlife can be found not too far from most cities, heck, in my city there are still regional parks where the bush is untouched and there are native animals living quite happily. |
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01/29/2007 09:32:21 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
To me the challenge was "wild" animals in their natural "native' environment. So, even though there were wonderful shots of wild animals, if they were not in natural habitat, I gave low scores. I knew the beautiful face of the lynx shot was in a zoo, because wildlife photographers would know to have the most importat part of the cat in the frame (the pointed ears, otherwise it looks like a bobcat) So, I gave the shot a 4, because I couldn't prove it wasn't wild.
All the tiger and bear shots in the challenge got 1s from me, since I know even to see an orange flash in the wild would be rare, thus non-wild in non-natural habitat otr they are hibernating. As a wildlife biologist, I get tired of folks try to do a Slick Will thing "depends on what is is" thing, to justify they obvious disregard of the spirit of a challenge. Just my crusty ole thoughts. Van |
Our bears don't hibernate... Actually, hubby saw one a couple weeks ago.
eta; I see the one in the challenge was a grizzly. Kay, we don't have grizzlys here, only lowly blacks.
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 21:33:25. |
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01/29/2007 09:37:00 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by davyaldy:
Not necessarily so, wildlife can be found not too far from most cities, heck, in my city there are still regional parks where the bush is untouched and there are native animals living quite happily. |
And in my city we get bears and/or cougars wandering through neighbourhoods a few times a year. A cougar was even captured in the parking garage of the Empress Hotel in the heart of downtown a few years back!
I dunno... I just don't care for ignoring challenge descriptions, myself. |
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01/29/2007 09:41:39 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Our bears don't hibernate... Actually, hubby saw one a couple weeks ago. |
Your right. I forgot about the coastal range not getting heavy snow, but rain rain rain....and more rain! But, I think it would probably be be a wet bear, wishing it would snow. :) |
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01/29/2007 09:45:44 PM · #38 |
Who WRITES the rules? Or, more specifically, who wrote the rules for this Challenge?
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 21:46:41. |
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01/29/2007 09:50:57 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by rob_banks:
Who WRITES the rules? Or, more specifically, who wrote the rules for this Challenge? |
Challenge Suggestions
Everyone can participate. :D
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01/29/2007 09:52:23 PM · #40 |
| That's where they're suggested, but I'm assuming someone on the Site Council must make the final approval of the write-up for the rule descriptions, right? |
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01/29/2007 09:59:02 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by rob_banks:
That's where they're suggested, but I'm assuming someone on the Site Council must make the final approval of the write-up for the rule descriptions, right? |
I think  langdon makes the final decision on what gets run every week. Sometimes they run as written (suggested by the user), but I usually don't go back and look. I just go with the flow and have fun with whatever's posted. :D
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01/29/2007 10:18:11 PM · #42 |
I did my part by not entering a shot of a siberian tiger from about 2 ft away. I thought that it would get trashed for DNMC. There was no way to tell it was not in the wild in the finished image.
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01/29/2007 10:28:35 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I wouldn't hold the photographers so accountable. The challenge description is what needs to be beaten. What difference does it make where the photo is made? Should part of the challenge in a 'wildlife' competition be to force the photographer out into the wild? The purpose should be to produce an excellent photo, which can be done other ways. |
Then what is the purpose of the description?
The challenge in "this" wildlife competiton "is" to capture the subject in its natural environment as stated in the challenege description. If it was no clearly mentioned, I would have no dispute.
Curious how this site flourishes on situational ethics. |
No, what the issue really is has to do with the fact that because this didn't go down the way your expectations indicated, you're not happy.
When you interpret the details and decide what your entry will be, then the onus of what the voters will like is on you.....and it doesn't matter whether you are right on the money as far as intent goes if someone enters something that grabs the voters.
It makes no difference whatsoever how you want to split hairs with semantics, my personal favorite "The *SPIRIT* of the challenge, or any other screwball *ASSUMPTION* that the voters at large make.
It's popular judging, not rule driven, which means that you are totally at the mercies of the whimsey of the voters at large, and guess what.....it's gonna be weirder when there's a full moon, too!
So it doesn't matter one iota what you think.....or one iota what I think, or that guy over there in the corner? Nope, him neither! It's all about whether or not you can woo the voters down your path to the ribbon.
And the sooner you figure out how to do that, well.....the sooner you can clue me in, and a whole sh*tpot of us out here!
Ethics got nuttin' to do with it!
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01/29/2007 10:31:50 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by davyaldy:
I liked your concept Nullix, especially the Irwinesque title, I just don't think this was the challenge for it. |
Thanks, and you're right. It was my first challenge as a member, so I had to jump in. |
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01/29/2007 10:39:32 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I wouldn't hold the photographers so accountable. The challenge description is what needs to be beaten. What difference does it make where the photo is made? Should part of the challenge in a 'wildlife' competition be to force the photographer out into the wild? The purpose should be to produce an excellent photo, which can be done other ways. |
Then what is the purpose of the description?
The challenge in "this" wildlife competiton "is" to capture the subject in its natural environment as stated in the challenege description. If it was no clearly mentioned, I would have no dispute.
Curious how this site flourishes on situational ethics. |
No, what the issue really is has to do with the fact that because this didn't go down the way your expectations indicated, you're not happy.
When you interpret the details and decide what your entry will be, then the onus of what the voters will like is on you.....and it doesn't matter whether you are right on the money as far as intent goes if someone enters something that grabs the voters.
It makes no difference whatsoever how you want to split hairs with semantics, my personal favorite "The *SPIRIT* of the challenge, or any other screwball *ASSUMPTION* that the voters at large make.
It's popular judging, not rule driven, which means that you are totally at the mercies of the whimsey of the voters at large, and guess what.....it's gonna be weirder when there's a full moon, too!
So it doesn't matter one iota what you think.....or one iota what I think, or that guy over there in the corner? Nope, him neither! It's all about whether or not you can woo the voters down your path to the ribbon.
And the sooner you figure out how to do that, well.....the sooner you can clue me in, and a whole sh*tpot of us out here!
Ethics got nuttin' to do with it! |
Absolutely frightening! This is exactly what happened with Enron. Do you condone that as well? At what point do you value integrity? All for a virtual ribbon? Heaven forbid it was for something tangible like ...... hmmmmm .... respect and true admiration for effort.
"Well kids, go ahead and cheat on the exam as long as they "think" you do it right, its alllllll good! Yikes! |
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01/29/2007 11:30:30 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by rob_banks:
Who WRITES the rules? Or, more specifically, who wrote the rules for this Challenge? |
Let's get specific....it says challenge DETAILS, right?
NOT RULES!!!!!
This is a constant source of amusement for me with the DNMC police 'cause it's always about their INTERPRETATION of the challenge details that causes the grief.
As soon as you start talking the rules of the challenge, the "spirit", the intent, you're projecting your own assumptions into your views and you're the only one breaking rules then.
Because then you're not voting fairly.
Read the details, interpret them as best you can without projecting any opinions, guesses, or preconceived notions into the mix.
Vote the entries on their merits as you see the photographer's interpretation of the challenge details and you might be a whole lot less likely to give out DNMCs if you're honest.
I know that I have given 4s out for entries because I couldn't be sure what the photographer meant, but I couldn't definitively say that he/she did *NOT* meet the challenge by my interpretation, so I had to take that aspect out of the criteria and vote the entry on technical merits.
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01/29/2007 11:34:45 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by rob_banks:
Who WRITES the rules? Or, more specifically, who wrote the rules for this Challenge? |
Let's get specific....it says challenge DETAILS, right?
NOT RULES!!!!!
This is a constant source of amusement for me with the DNMC police 'cause it's always about their INTERPRETATION of the challenge details that causes the grief.
As soon as you start talking the rules of the challenge, the "spirit", the intent, you're projecting your own assumptions into your views and you're the only one breaking rules then.
Because then you're not voting fairly.
Read the details, interpret them as best you can without projecting any opinions, guesses, or preconceived notions into the mix.
Vote the entries on their merits as you see the photographer's interpretation of the challenge details and you might be a whole lot less likely to give out DNMCs if you're honest.
I know that I have given 4s out for entries because I couldn't be sure what the photographer meant, but I couldn't definitively say that he/she did *NOT* meet the challenge by my interpretation, so I had to take that aspect out of the criteria and vote the entry on technical merits. |
So if I entered a shot of a person and nothing else would you deduct anything for not meeting the challenge? If you would, why?
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 23:35:19. |
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01/29/2007 11:37:51 PM · #48 |
I took an image of an 'pet' for the challenge.
Why did I do this? Two reasons, A Whim, it was a halfway fun lucky shot.
Day of the challenge, I was out shooting other things, Happen to swing around and saw the 'pet' running, SO without readjusting the settings I just snapped two images. First is what I entered second was crap.
I titled the image 'Once in a While Wild'
All Domesticated animals at one point have a 'wild' heritage, just as people have a heritage, german, irish, polish, american, whatever.
Seeing this image of the 'domesticated' pet, running through the desert was like watching a wild dog run through the desert.
Its not often, but, when I let her run, once in a while, she is free to be Wild.
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01/29/2007 11:40:45 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
This is exactly what happened with Enron. Do you condone that as well? At what point do you value integrity?... |
What Enron did was illegal. Creating an image that appears to meet the challenge is NOT illegal (assuming you followed the editing rules). Wildlife I and Wildlife II both featured zoo shots without complaint, and the description was no different this time. Worth noting: several entries scoring 6+ in the At the Zoo challenge were actually shot at home or in the wild *gasp*, and nobody cried foul.
The challenge description is a guideline that explains what the voters expect to see. It does NOT generally specify how you must achieve that expectation. A topic might describe magic or UFOs, but that doesn't mean we have to find actual magic or UFOs- just make it look like we did. With a well composed and presented entry, you might not have any idea whether the challenge was met unless the photographer left an explanation. IMO there is far more value in having such details available to learn from than driving photographers to leave those comments blank just to avoid criticism on a perfectly legal shot.
I really admire people who were able to find breathtaking images out in the wild (or a park), but I also know that making an artificial environment appear natural presents its own set of challenges. I certainly don't feel any shame in enduring sub-zero wind chills for 4 hours at the zoo trying to find something natural when I could have easily thrown some birdseed in the back yard and parked by a window with a cup of hot cocoa. The REAL shame would be waiting to see how a spectacular image was achieved only to find N/A in the comments section due to threads like this! :-/
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 23:43:12. |
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01/29/2007 11:42:35 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
I took an image of an 'pet' for the challenge.
Why did I do this? Two reasons, A Whim, it was a halfway fun lucky shot.
Day of the challenge, I was out shooting other things, Happen to swing around and saw the 'pet' running, SO without readjusting the settings I just snapped two images. First is what I entered second was crap.
I titled the image 'Once in a While Wild'
All Domesticated animals at one point have a 'wild' heritage, just as people have a heritage, german, irish, polish, american, whatever.
Seeing this image of the 'domesticated' pet, running through the desert was like watching a wild dog run through the desert.
Its not often, but, when I let her run, once in a while, she is free to be Wild. |
So you're saying in that moment you captured him he was "non-domesticated" because that's what the challenge specifically required. Don't take that the wrong way because I think yours was definitely in the realm of out of the box thinking while fitting the challenge and gave yours a 6. Would have been higher if I liked the look of the image better.
Message edited by author 2007-01-29 23:43:23. |
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