Suggested New Editing Rules - DPChallenge Forums

06/04/2003 04:00:04 PM · #76

I've recently switched my views on this issue and I also would like to freely edit the images I submit. I agree that we should not be allowed to visually add anything to the photo but only remove small elements that are not primary subjects in the scene. Also, no DQ requests allowed for badly edited photos, just let the votes decide. This would avoid tons of DQ requests from those people who think a photo is illegally edited. I would support randomly selecting a very small amount of users to submit their original photos for inspection. With this policy in place users would be more inclined to not cheat plus these original photos could serve as a nice way to compare a before and after shot for nicely edited legal shots.

I personally don't realy like the application of the term 'leveling the playing field' as it pertains to photography. That means restrictions or compromises for those who want to take their photography as far as they can. I prefer to be allowed to improve without restrictions and if that means having to aquire better eqipment at some point then so be it. I have a pretty nice camera but it still isn't a digital SLR so there are still many types of photos and an amount of quality I can't achieve. That's just fine by me, though, because I know that one day I will probably get to that level if skills warrent it. It's the same with your editing software too. Everyone has to start somewhere and if you are serious enough you will probably get the higher end tools eventually. Why limit those people who are farther along?

T

06/04/2003 04:02:51 PM · #77

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by mavrik:

I can likely use PS as well as you. I'm not afraid of using it and I use Retouchpro to further my editing skills. I think it turns dpc into da and I don't want to do that.

I had a look at retouchpro. I don't see anything there that is in the spirit of what John is suggesting.

The original intent is still not being realized. For some strange reason that I'll never understand, people believe that removing the editing restrictions starts to make fantasy world digital art...

Jak

Fujifilm FinePix S602Z

06/04/2003 04:02:53 PM · #78

I would agree with Tim if this were the only place to post edited images. It isn't and I have no idea why people want to make this place just like all the rest.

06/04/2003 04:05:53 PM · #79

Originally posted by Jak:

I would agree with Tim if this were the only place to post edited images. It isn't and I have no idea why people want to make this place just like all the rest.

This place isn't jsut like the rest and no rule changes would make it so. Show me another site that operates like this does with challenges and voting and such... I would love to see another one...

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

06/04/2003 04:08:05 PM · #80

Originally posted by Gordon:

... unless there is an underlying assumption that dpc is only for people starting out ?

Not at all; but many people, like myself, are using this site to learn how to use a camera/take better photos. I would hate for a beginner to get the idea that they need to learn how to edit before they learn how to use their camera, just so they can get a decent score quickly.

Originally posted by Gordon:

Maybe if that's true we do need a beginner and advanced categories or challenges.

That might be the best idea (similar to what Ruth suggested earlier) - especially if the number of submissions starts getting too high for each challenge.
Personally, I am at a point where opening up the editing rules would probably benefit me greatly. But this site isn't all about me (unfortunately!! LOL).

wewillexplore

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

06/04/2003 04:10:02 PM · #81

I 100% agree with what bod just said. I wanted to add support to it, but I have almost nothing to add - we all know the arguments for and against. I do support beginner/advanced challenges but I'd just as soon start with member vs open.

Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM

06/04/2003 04:11:10 PM · #82

Allowing more freedom in editing will only keep you from getting more proficient with the camera IF YOU LET IT. It will allow those who are already proficient with the camera to use even better photos in the challenges...

Refracted

Canon EOS-50D

06/04/2003 04:14:58 PM · #83

with all this talk.. think of how many people already spot edit pics, despite the rules.. I can tell you now you'd never know if i had taken out a hot pixel in one of my submission.. (not that i have.. although i'm with setz on this one, i'd love to get rid of small annoyances from images if they appear)

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

06/04/2003 04:15:24 PM · #84

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Allowing more freedom in editing will only keep you from getting more proficient with the camera IF YOU LET IT.

Yes, but the lure of the dark side I mean a higher score is very powerful.

Alecia

Canon EOS-10D

06/04/2003 04:20:05 PM · #85

Originally posted by bod:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Allowing more freedom in editing will only keep you from getting more proficient with the camera IF YOU LET IT.

Yes, but the lure of the dark side I mean a higher score is very powerful.

i dunno, a bad pic is still a bad pic regardless of the editing. i knew more about photoshop than cameras before i started here and i bet you anything had i been allowed to use those skills--it still would shown in the voting cause i didnt know how to really use a camera! :)

shareinnc

Canon EOS-20D

06/04/2003 04:21:05 PM · #86

Originally posted by Refracted:

I think I'm with Refracted and Setz on this one. How many times have you taken a great shot only to find a tiny imperfection (a hot pixel caused, in my house, by a flaw in your background sheet or maybe a small piece of cat fur--I have 4 cats)? With the utter nitpickiness of the voters on this site, a tiny hot pixel can often ruin an otherwise great shot as far as scoring on this site.

I wouldn't want this site to turn into a "digital art" site where the original photograph is no longer recognizable, but to be able to fix small flaws like those above would be great. How many folks who develop their own 35mm film touch up negatives to fix such flaws before making prints? What's the difference?

Shari

alternarule

Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D

Tamron AF 28-200mm f/3.8-5.6 Aspherical XR IF Super Zoom for Minolta

06/04/2003 04:27:20 PM · #87

I'm got two possible suggestions....
1. create another set of contests
a. one contest done the way that we are currently doing it
b. one contest where the image can be altered whatever
way you want it to be and it becomes a digital art contest
2. add a couple extra photoshop abilities to the list that are already
there, one being burning and the other being dodging. I do agree
since I have been doing mostly film photography, that I end up
burning or dodging something in about 50% of my photographs

06/04/2003 04:31:59 PM · #88

I would not like any more categories, I think we have enough as it is.

It's important to understand that an amount of editing is always necessary with digital files. Some of it is done automatically in-camera and the rest needs to be done in an editing program. There are still a lot of people who think that evry shot can be captured perfectly in-camera if only the user knew how to use the camera properly and this simply isn't true. Sometimes it is just a matter of adjusting the tonal values and other times it requires adjustments to specific areas in the photo to produce the best image possible. This site has developed into an incredible resource for learning about all of the techniques involved with digital photography. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to restrict most of those techniques. If we are learning about all of the methods and tools here then why shouldn't we also showcase the results here?

T

hey toast

06/04/2003 04:41:12 PM · #89

I guess my logic must be totally skewed, because I have no problem seeing a huge difference between digital art and editing techniques that are just as much part of photography as taking pictures itself.

I also agree with tim, this might sound cold but. If you don't have the software or tools to do it right or how you want it, so what? I wouldn't expect to race a corvette with my 4-cylinder mustang and say "By the way, could we not go over 60mph, because your car is clearly faster than mine."

As someone suggested about having the 2 different "levels", maybe keep the open challenges how they are (beginner) and have member challenges with more liberal editing (advanced)?

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

06/04/2003 04:55:17 PM · #90

Originally posted by alternarule:

I don't really think anyone that is advocating rule changes is looking for option b. As has been beaten to death, a properly finished photograph is not the same thing as what gets normally considered as digital art.

2/ My only issue here is that I do my dodging and burning using a layer that I edit with a brush (mainly because the photoshop dodge/burn tools are pretty nasty in how they are implemented). This is just one example of why trying to write rules that pick and chose which techniques you can use is a nightmare (and why for example we just DQ'ed another winner who followed the letter of the rules, but not the spirit in which we usually apply them)

jjones

Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi

06/04/2003 05:00:35 PM · #91

I think the statement should read:

"Whiners need not apply"

Got a problem with the rules, don't submit photos. We are all here to learn not whine.

06/04/2003 05:04:59 PM · #92

Originally posted by jjones:

I think the statement should read:

"Whiners need not apply"

Got a problem with the rules, don't submit photos. We are all here to learn not whine.

I'm glad everyone doesn't take that opinion...

Rules are flexible, as has been shown on this site many times. We have changed rules before and will do so again in the future...

06/04/2003 05:10:49 PM · #93

Originally posted by jjones:

I think the statement should read:

"Whiners need not apply"

Got a problem with the rules, don't submit photos. We are all here to learn not whine.

Are you whining about our friendly discussion? : ) This goes both ways.

Right from the begginning of this site all members have been encouraged to speak up regarding all issues. If we were not encouraged to speak up then I would be more inclined to share your opinion. It's not going to ruin my day if things stay the way they are but when I am asked to share my opinion I happily will. These discussions in this context is very far from what I would consider whining.

T

Jak

Fujifilm FinePix S602Z

06/04/2003 05:17:55 PM · #94

Originally posted by Gordon:

we just DQ'ed another winner who followed the letter of the rules, but not the spirit in which we usually apply them)

I'm confused by this. Are you saying that burning and dodging ARE within "the letter of the rules"?

06/04/2003 05:18:27 PM · #95

Originally posted by Alecia:

True, but the temptation to concentrate on editing rather than nailing the basics would be there.

Originally posted by shareinc:

With the utter nitpickiness of the voters on this site, a tiny hot pixel can often ruin an otherwise great shot as far as scoring on this site.

I'm not convinced about that. Consider the flaws in the glass in this shot, yet not a single commenter mentioned them. It wasn't even picked up on when it was brought up as having underscored in the forums, and I never felt it had suffered for not being able to edit it.

Originally posted by Gordon:

My only issue here is that I do my dodging and burning using a layer that I edit with a brush (mainly because the photoshop dodge/burn tools are pretty nasty in how they are implemented).

Do you have a link to a tutorial on this? I am interested in learning to edit properly whether the rules change or not.

I'm still on the fence on this one, even if it seems that I'm fighting on the no editing side - you're all doing a good job of countering my points.

Journey

Canon PowerShot G3

06/04/2003 05:21:38 PM · #96

Always long threads when editing rules come up! Allowing limited editing cannot be enforced because of various interpretations of what limited means. Don't like the idea of more challenge categories as there are already plenty to stay on top of (both submitting and voting). Last week didn't make any comments, didn't vote on HSH and just had a quick look at the thumbnails. With more categories, i would lose interest in all challenges because you are not sure anymore where to submit to and what challenge submissions might be worth looking at. Posting before & after pictures is a terrible idea (except for the occasional Requesting Critique thread) because what with challenges and portfolios there are already plenty of pictures to look at as it is now, on dpc alone.

And with unlimited editing you will get comments like: Gordon (i'm picking on you since you posted an example), you made 100 editing adjustments; what was your reason for not also changing the upper left hand corner of your wife's picture and make it blend in better with the rest of the background. The way it is now, it emphasizes 'something' and i don't know what it is and why. That grey corner competes a little with the face. And since you did not change it in editing, i presume you had a good reason for not doing so and for the world of it, i can't figure out what it is.

Perhaps more comments will then be edit related rather than photography related. Why didn't you edit more? Nice portrait but the whole background needs to go! etc.

With the current structure, you know under what limitations submissions have been created. It's silly to really point out in a comment that the photog should have gotten rid of the offensive blahblahblah because the photog is probably very aware of that. With the proposed rules, i will not enjoy looking at these challenges as much anymore since it may be teaching me very little about photography. I am at dpc strictly for photography; for digital art and Photoshop there are far better sites that dpc could never be.

Again, you want to edit your pictures beyond what is currently allowed: put it in your portfolio. And make a comment along with your submission, that as soon as the challenge is over you will put the edited version in your portfolio.

06/04/2003 05:22:32 PM · #97

You create a new blank layer to do your dodging and burning on and then you select 'use all layers'. This way you can turn the new layer on and off to fully see your results or delete the layer entirely if you don't like what you did by not affecting the original layer.

T

hey toast

06/04/2003 05:27:45 PM · #98

Wow. Since when did DPC become a digital photography standard as to what is and isn't ethical in digital photography? Why are people acting like editing is an after thought or isn't done in digital or film photography? WAKE UP. Obviously there's no point.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

06/04/2003 05:32:08 PM · #99

Originally posted by Jak:

Originally posted by Gordon:
we just DQ'ed another winner who followed the letter of the rules, but not the spirit in which we usually apply them)

I'm confused by this. Are you saying that burning and dodging ARE within "the letter of the rules"?

Certainly they could be more clearly expressed, although this part tries to cover it, with some mistakes

"
Spot-Editing: Absolutely no spot-editing is allowed. This includes, but is not limited to drawing tools, dodging/bluring tools, and cloning tools. Additionally, the use of any type of selection tool is prohibited except to select a non-feathered, non-anti-aliased rectangular area for cropping."

Most of the comments about it being illegal refer to dodging/ burning being an illegal use of a selection tool, which tells me that most of those discussing it don't really understand what's going on either.

I hadn't fully checked the rules when I made the above statement. I am more thinking that the more we try and legislate these sorts of things, the more we end up needing people to interpret infractions (cf. any legal system you care to consider).