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Showing posts 276 - 300 of 375, (reverse)
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 02/02/2006 06:17:47 PM · #276
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gordon:


Anyone want to talk about major elements ? :)


Color shifts have always been allowed. All the elements (smoke, matchsticks) were in the original– only their attributes (the color) has changed. Selective desaturation is no less of an edit.


If you look at that in the context of the title, and the commentary on the image, I think you are incorrect in your conclusions.
 02/02/2006 06:17:56 PM · #277
I don't envy the SC in any of the DQ situations let alone any as controversial as this one seems to be. The fact that there was much discussion and that the final result was a squeaker shows that the system is working albeit not the way a lot of people would like it to.

As with all things everyone has an opinion. Members of the SC have already stated (a few times) that the rules are being revised in order to try and clear things up a bit. I'm sure this discussion will come up again even after the new rules are posted.

Continuing the debate at this point, to me, is not getting anyone anywhere except further down the road to frustration. Let it go while the SC work out the new rules.
02/02/2006 06:19:23 PM · #278
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Most fashion photography looks nothing like the model, these days.


Model in original > Better model in final

If the photographer started with a horse and turned it into Charlize Theron in PS, THEN we'd have a problem.


Why the long face...
 02/02/2006 06:19:34 PM · #279
Of note, I noticed the lake and trees. However, I realize that I noticed these in the thumbnail. (I believe this is due to the motion blur not being very noticeable at thumbnail size.) And when viewing the larger file they were much less discernable.

I believe that this was a borderline case, and by that, I mean that I believe the SC were right to go either way. Like or not.

I hear some references to rules clarification. And I think that's great. Perhaps the SC will shortly announce a revamping of the rules.

Either way, when you factor in the thousands of images that are submitted, the SC does a pretty darn decent job.

;)
 02/02/2006 06:20:11 PM · #280
It seems like people are assuming SC has favorites, and that it was a hands down no DQ for some pictures and a hands down DQ on other pictures. Has nobody read that the SC had very close votes on most, if not all pictures that have been referred to in this debate? This is just an observation that people seem to think because one was allowed, the other should be with no regards to the fact that it was one vote that determined one, and it may have been one vote that determined the other picture getting a DQ. Votes make things fall on both sides of the fence. I'm not (I hope) offering an opinion, just an observation.
 02/02/2006 06:21:01 PM · #281
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
I don't envy the SC in any of the DQ situations let alone any as controversial as this one seems to be. The fact that there was much discussion and that the final result was a squeaker shows that the system is working albeit not the way a lot of people would like it to.

As with all things everyone has an opinion. Members of the SC have already stated (a few times) that the rules are being revised in order to try and clear things up a bit. I'm sure this discussion will come up again even after the new rules are posted.

Continuing the debate at this point, to me, is not getting anyone anywhere except further down the road to frustration. Let it go while the SC work out the new rules.


Thing is, the rules have been revised almost constantly since the site was started. Every time they are revised a new set of corner cases are thrown up and eventually the boundaries are pushed and the whole circus starts again.

The only conclusion to draw is that continual revision without addressing the root cause is a futile and pointless exercise.
 02/02/2006 06:22:00 PM · #282
New discussion: root cause
 02/02/2006 06:24:33 PM · #283
Originally posted by samanwar:
many people (including myself) agree that the filter I applied moved the photo a bit away from photography and toward digital art, this is not the argument, let's drop that point.


I already agreed with you MANY times that the rules were on your side. My quote was not directed at your shot, but in response to Gordon's implication that this is digital photography, so why limit the editing...
 02/02/2006 06:30:40 PM · #284
Originally posted by TooCool:
Shannon, in the original shot you can tell there are trees and a lake and bushes. In the submitted image none of those features are there... I would say removing a lake would be a major element.


I didn't need to see the original to know what the blurry background elements were, and they were pretty blurry to begin with (shallow DOF), so for me no major elements were removed.
 02/02/2006 06:31:18 PM · #285
Originally posted by Gordon:
The only conclusion to draw is that continual revision without addressing the root cause is a futile and pointless exercise.


We're already dealing with it. Stay tuned...
 02/02/2006 06:32:02 PM · #286
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by samanwar:
many people (including myself) agree that the filter I applied moved the photo a bit away from photography and toward digital art, this is not the argument, let's drop that point.


I already agreed with you MANY times that the rules were on your side.
Aren't trees, bushes, and a lake considered major elements? Even more so when all three are removed together? If one has not seen the original, no lake is discernable, and one could only guess that those are trees in the background. I think SC was right in DQ'ing this particular image.
 02/02/2006 06:33:07 PM · #287
Originally posted by pidge:
It seems like people are assuming SC has favorites, and that it was a hands down no DQ for some pictures and a hands down DQ on other pictures. Has nobody read that the SC had very close votes on most, if not all pictures that have been referred to in this debate?


If the difference is NOT favortism, then what is the difference:



Seriously, whether it got voted one way or another, what is the difference between the above three photos? Why do two stand, and one fall?

EDIT: which major elements were removed -- the already out of focus trees???

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 18:34:18.
 02/02/2006 06:34:08 PM · #288
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by TooCool:
Shannon, in the original shot you can tell there are trees and a lake and bushes. In the submitted image none of those features are there... I would say removing a lake would be a major element.


I didn't need to see the original to know what the blurry background elements were, and they were pretty blurry to begin with (shallow DOF), so for me no major elements were removed.


An entire lake was removed...
 02/02/2006 06:35:06 PM · #289
Originally posted by Gordon:
Color shifts have always been allowed. All the elements (smoke, matchsticks) were in the original– only their attributes (the color) has changed. Selective desaturation is no less of an edit.


If you look at that in the context of the title, and the commentary on the image, I think you are incorrect in your conclusions. [/quote]

If that were true, then about a half-dozen entries in the Pink challenge that were hue-shifted to make them pink would be DQ'd. Color is an attribute of an element, not an element itself (although opinions vary on this).
 02/02/2006 06:35:11 PM · #290
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by pidge:
It seems like people are assuming SC has favorites, and that it was a hands down no DQ for some pictures and a hands down DQ on other pictures. Has nobody read that the SC had very close votes on most, if not all pictures that have been referred to in this debate?


If the difference is NOT favortism, then what is the difference:



Seriously, whether it got voted one way or another, what is the difference between the above three photos? Why do two stand, and one fall?

Because in the first, the radial blur removes major elements. In the latter two, no such removal has taken place by the blur. At least that's how SC apparently sees it, and I agree with them.

EDIT: Trees and a lake were removed. Sure, they were already out of focus in the original, but in the edit they have been blurred into obscurity and are no longer discernable.

Message edited by author 2006-02-02 18:37:13.
 02/02/2006 06:35:25 PM · #291
The only part that makes anything less 'obvious' as to what it is is the color shift...and that's legal in basic!
 02/02/2006 06:37:04 PM · #292
Originally posted by deapee:
Originally posted by pidge:
It seems like people are assuming SC has favorites, and that it was a hands down no DQ for some pictures and a hands down DQ on other pictures. Has nobody read that the SC had very close votes on most, if not all pictures that have been referred to in this debate?


If the difference is NOT favortism, then what is the difference:



Seriously, whether it got voted one way or another, what is the difference between the above three photos? Why do two stand, and one fall?


Not every S/C member votes on every DQ. So if the vote on Joey's pic was 6-7 no DQ then what's to say only 11 of those same people voted on the birds and so the vote was 6-5. It's not favoratism it's more who is around and is voting on an image at any given time by the S/C that determines these "on the fence" votes.
 02/02/2006 06:37:12 PM · #293
Originally posted by samanwar:
The point is that the rules don't include any grounds for the DQ (according to most comments on this thread).


This is the one point that I actually DISAGREE with you on Samanwar, the rules DO have grounds. It's the element clause. And the issue at hand is that said "major element" clause is greatly subjective.

The rules have cause, but not clarity. That is what causes this problem.
 02/02/2006 06:37:28 PM · #294
Originally posted by TooCool:
An entire lake was removed...


Nope, it's still there, but blurrier. I can see it readily in the thumbnail, and it's still obviously a lake IMO.
 02/02/2006 06:37:52 PM · #295
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
I don't envy the SC in any of the DQ situations let alone any as controversial as this one seems to be. The fact that there was much discussion and that the final result was a squeaker shows that the system is working albeit not the way a lot of people would like it to.

As with all things everyone has an opinion. Members of the SC have already stated (a few times) that the rules are being revised in order to try and clear things up a bit. I'm sure this discussion will come up again even after the new rules are posted.

Continuing the debate at this point, to me, is not getting anyone anywhere except further down the road to frustration. Let it go while the SC work out the new rules.


Thing is, the rules have been revised almost constantly since the site was started. Every time they are revised a new set of corner cases are thrown up and eventually the boundaries are pushed and the whole circus starts again.

The only conclusion to draw is that continual revision without addressing the root cause is a futile and pointless exercise.

Exactly my thoughts when I started this thread last week. Define what the site is for, for everyone to see and agree on -- and then work on defining the parts. Trying to define a part within an undefined whole is futile at best.

***

And in general, a quick question if I may about the direction of the rules revision.

- Is it in the direction of more tool oriented? ... less tool oriented?
- Is it in the direction of more effect oriented?
- Is it in the direction of greater abstraction and obscurity, such as the fairly recent and even less predictable 'a major element is what a normal person would mention when describing...' guideline?
- Or, just in general, what is the main focus kept in mind that is going to clarify what hasn't been clarified in previous clarifications?

David
 02/02/2006 06:39:13 PM · #296
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by TooCool:
Shannon, in the original shot you can tell there are trees and a lake and bushes. In the submitted image none of those features are there... I would say removing a lake would be a major element.


I didn't need to see the original to know what the blurry background elements were, and they were pretty blurry to begin with (shallow DOF), so for me no major elements were removed.


An entire lake was removed...


No it's not. The shorline is still very visible.
 02/02/2006 06:39:47 PM · #297
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by TooCool:
An entire lake was removed...


Nope, it's still there, but blurrier. I can see it readily in the thumbnail, and it's still obviously a lake IMO.

Had you not seen the original, I would say you would have no idea there was even a lake originally present.
 02/02/2006 06:40:34 PM · #298
Just want to clear up a couple things:

A) I just wanted to add my opinion, then move on. I won't fight a battle that's not mine.

B) The image should not have been DQ'd

C) The photo in question, and the other two photos on the first page of this thread, I find lacking, and personally would have probably given them all, at most, a 3.

D) deapee has left the building.
 02/02/2006 06:40:43 PM · #299
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Not every S/C member votes on every DQ. So if the vote on Joey's pic was 6-7 no DQ then what's to say only 11 of those same people voted on the birds and so the vote was 6-5. It's not favoritism it's more who is around and is voting on an image at any given time by the S/C that determines these "on the fence" votes.


That's probably EXACTLY what happened. Maybe Heida and Magnetic voted on Joey's, but resigned before Sam's. We wait to get as many votes as possible on borderline shots, but if someone's not around then we can't keep delaying the verdict forever.
 02/02/2006 06:40:52 PM · #300
OK people - I think this topic has been going on for too long. Agree, gr8 discussion point. After reading all the threads, I have decided that the photo is legal and SC made a mistake.
This photo (legal or not legal) inspired me to try it on some of my photos and to see what I can come up with.

SC - common, admit you were wrong and give this photo the credit it deserves.
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