| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/20/2005 01:58:54 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Kadi. I think it was mentioned before that commenting is a great help to newer users. |
I don't disagree. Commenting is a great help to everyone, even less-than-new users such as myself.
Originally posted by eschelar:
If you get a comment that was someone trying to be helpful because your picture looked like something that needed this kind of comment, check it out, view that person's profile. |
I always do.
Originally posted by eschelar:
If the commenter does not show skill equal to yours, feel free to ignore it. |
I seldom use this as a criteria to validate someone's opinion. I do expect commenters to validate their own opinions by saying why they think something should be different. In the example I posted, the commenter says my image could benefit from greater DOF--why? Why does the limited DOF (which was a conscious choice on my part) bother this person?
Originally posted by eschelar:
Don't get upset because someone chose to word things that might be understandable even to a beginner. Many people here ARE beginners. |
I am not upset. I posted the comment to illustrate my point in the previous post I left. I also said that because the comment contained further information I found it "useful."
I feel you are taking a patronizing tone to me, much like the one employed by the commenter I quoted. You're giving me advice that relies on many unfounded assumptions about by experience, my feelings, my level of maturity. I simply presented a point of view and gave an illustration to support what I was trying to say.
(BTW, I left a lengthy comment on your challenge entry that includes no mention of the terms that Setzler has suggested it may help to avoid. Turns out, because I avoided using simplistic short-hand I was able to say more than I would have otherwise.)
-peace- |
|
|
|
09/20/2005 02:05:33 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by eschelar:
Most of these people could definitely use a little suggestion now and again on how to control depth of field with aperture and shutter choices as well as focal issues. |
Herein lies the problem. You would have to 'assume' that what you see that you consider to be 'wrong' is a mistake on the photographer's part rather than assuming it was done intentionally. Since you don't know who produced the image, or their particular skill level. Granted, you may not like the 'choice', but you should give it credit for being a conscious choise until you know otherwise. |
I see nothing wrong with hearing some elses opinion of what would make the photograph better. Whether they knew I did something on purpose or not. If I can see different views I'll get more ideas. Just a thought.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 02:18:44 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by vfwlkr:
I agree with Daryl. There might be 10% accomplished photographers who receive a few comments thay are way off base.. but do we want to deprive the other 90% who can benefit from those technical comments? |
I'm not asking anyone to deprive anyone else of anything :)
I'm just asking if someone would be willing to try this method :) |
Fair enough.
I feel that "a shallower DoF might look better" and "I wonder how it would look if the background was more blurred and had fewer details" are one and the same.. but your method does sound interesting.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 02:28:22 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by vfwlkr:
Fair enough.
I feel that "a shallower DoF might look better" and "I wonder how it would look if the background was more blurred and had fewer details" are one and the same.. but your method does sound interesting. |
The point isn't to find different wording to express technical issues. The point is to try ignoring technical issues when you critique. You will see the photo in an entirely different light when you do.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 02:30:28 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by eschelar:
If the commenter does not show skill equal to yours, feel free to ignore it. |
I seldom use this as a criteria to validate someone's opinion. I do expect commenters to validate their own opinions by saying why they think something should be different. In the example I posted, the commenter says my image could benefit from greater DOF--why? Why does the limited DOF (which was a conscious choice on my part) bother this person? |
You have three choices with any comment. 1. Ignore it. 2. listen to it 3. PM for more clarification.
My stating that you can feel free to ignore a comment refers to if a comment rubs you the wrong way on the grounds that you feel the commenter does not have the level of understanding or skill necessary to make such comments, check to see their level of skill. If that matches your estimation of them, then feel free to not worry about it.
If you don't know why a person said that they felt the DOF was ineffectively used in a picture, PM them. There is enough information in what I have seen in that comment to ask a simple, short question. Few would object to that.
Originally posted by kadi:
Originally posted by eschelar:
Don't get upset because someone chose to word things that might be understandable even to a beginner. Many people here ARE beginners. |
I am not upset. I posted the comment to illustrate my point in the previous post I left. I also said that because the comment contained further information I found it "useful."
I feel you are taking a patronizing tone to me, much like the one employed by the commenter I quoted. You're giving me advice that relies on many unfounded assumptions about by experience, my feelings, my level of maturity. I simply presented a point of view and gave an illustration to support what I was trying to say.
(BTW, I left a lengthy comment on your challenge entry that includes no mention of the terms that Setzler has suggested it may help to avoid. Turns out, because I avoided using simplistic short-hand I was able to say more than I would have otherwise.)
-peace- |
Thanks for the comment on my challenge entry. It's appreciated.
I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were upset. I was trying to indicate that there is no need to be upset. Especially for one who, as you put it is "a less than new member". If you are feeling patronized by my comments it is probably because I am trying to take care not to turn JMsetzler's thread into an argument as I have seen happen on this topic before. This has nothing to do with you or your experience level or level of maturity, and everything to do with trying to respect someone else's thread.
It is precisely this type of reaction that I hope to avoid by suggestions in my thread on the subject which I have already mentioned here.
Sorry JM.
Edit: removing some odd characters at the end of the post?
Message edited by author 2005-09-20 14:32:12. |
|
|
|
09/20/2005 02:53:19 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by eschelar:
Most of these people could definitely use a little suggestion now and again on how to control depth of field with aperture and shutter choices as well as focal issues. |
Herein lies the problem. You would have to 'assume' that what you see that you consider to be 'wrong' is a mistake on the photographer's part rather than assuming it was done intentionally. Since you don't know who produced the image, or their particular skill level. Granted, you may not like the 'choice', but you should give it credit for being a conscious choise until you know otherwise. |
AMEN!...how does that saying about "assume" go?
John Setzler...you are my new hero. : }
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 02:55:18 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by rktdesign:
AMEN!...how does that saying about "assume" go?
|
Ahhh yes, the old chinese proverb:
"When assuming you make an ass out of you and Ming" |
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:10:57 PM · #33 |
Would it be reasonable to assume that the majority of submissions made on this site are made by people who want more advice or less advice?
Assumptions are part of the evaluation process. As a voter, I could make assumptions either way. I could assume that the photographer is experienced and write about how I feel, but leave out my opinions on the technical merits of a photo, or I could assume that the photographer is not that experienced and write my honest impressions as well as a few notes on technical aspects of the picture.
Like them or not, everyone who votes makes assumptions one way or another. I just find that most people assume that the person taking the picture was experienced and doesn't need to be told so much.
My proof? Look at all the pictures that aren't in the top 50 of a challenge. Very few comments for most of those.
This too is the effect of assumptions. This is WHY I feel it would be good to use check boxes for challenge submissions so the submitter of a photograph can indicate what kind of comments he is looking for.
Please don't take my meaning to say that the words listed by JM at the outset as being required for good commenting. I just don't agree that they have no place in commenting when those who don't need such comments are not the majority.
My personal method is to comment first on emotional impact and my feelings on the picture (naturally, having strong feelings about a picture is NOT all that common, maybe 10 in two hundred), then see if there appears to be some area of the picture where the photographer did something that I feel is negative that I wouldn't have done, or would have recognized as an error if I had made that mistake. I then evaluate how obvious I feel it is at the time and if it looks obvious enough that most people would likely have mentioned it, I bite my tongue. Finally, pictures that I felt strongly about, I review after the challenge. I then have more context to make further comments.
Because I am not a really high end photographer, I do not assume that my comments are so valuable that anyone should view them as important. I am merely offering my viewpoint in a way that I hope is helpful to the photographer.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:15:41 PM · #34 |
I think that this thread may need an 'example'. I'll see if I can find an image that I have critiqued in the past that follow these suggestions...
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:22:04 PM · #35 |
Here's a photo where I left a non technical comment. A good number of people who commented here during the challenge did make technical comments and the photo received a very average score of 5.5. This, to me, is an example of where technicals don't really matter because they are overpowered by the subject.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:26:26 PM · #36 |
Oh, ok, now we're talking about perfection taking priority over 'the moment'. That's been my beef with dpc (both in voting and critiquing) since I joined.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:34:01 PM · #37 |
That style works for that photo, but it won't work for all photos. Lets see you apply that to a photo you didn't rate a 10? Since you rated it a 10 you must have thought it was pretty much perfect. No need to offer any advice on something like that. Lets see how it works on a photo you rated low.
When I get a comment I want to know if you like it or not and why, and what you suggest doing different if you have a suggestion.
I don̢۪t care what words you use to convey that and I don̢۪t want you to sugar coat it. If you tell me something I already know I won̢۪t be insulted. If you tell me you don̢۪t like the way I took the photo I̢۪ll consider your thoughts. It̢۪s quite simple.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:41:52 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Lets see how it works on a photo you rated low.
|
Pick a photo.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 03:50:43 PM · #39 |
Or pick any one of my photos you don't like.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 04:25:53 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Or pick any one of my photos you don't like. |
Here's the comment I left:
"Greetings...
I spent about 5 minutes looking at this image trying to determine what it is that you are trying to show me. The only conclusion that I can draw is that you are showing me a photo that meets the challenge. The image appears to have no subject and no coherence. It's a bit to random for my taste to have any significant impact as a photograph."
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 04:38:07 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Here's a photo where I left a non technical comment. A good number of people who commented here during the challenge did make technical comments and the photo received a very average score of 5.5. This, to me, is an example of where technicals don't really matter because they are overpowered by the subject. |
I completely agree with you that content should overpower technicals.. but dont you think the technicals might help the photographer to improve in the future - take photographs with strong content and technicals?
This thread is indeed a needed reminder to give due weight to content when looking at photographs.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I spent about 5 minutes looking at this image trying to determine what it is that you are trying to show me. The only conclusion that I can draw is that you are showing me a photo that meets the challenge. |
Your comment is spot on. I wish someone had left that comment for me in one of my early challenge entries.. I learnt it the hard way.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 04:49:06 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by vfwlkr:
I completely agree with you that content should overpower technicals.. but dont you think the technicals might help the photographer to improve in the future - take photographs with strong content and technicals?
|
Absolutely.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 05:23:41 PM · #43 |
I like Jim's suggestion. Worth a lot of consideration.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 06:08:54 PM · #44 |
Whether you agree or not with Jim's contentions you are probably off to a better critique consideration after reading this thread. Some of my feelings are on the other end, but in general he makes a point much like the Zen Master to open up and examine your own viewpoint on this important subject.
My thoughts on this subject are as follows: An image is made with either a conscious or unconscious motive. Not all of us know our minds so well. My job as the recipient or viewer is to determine or discover how this image plays on my emotions, sense of aesthetics or sheer force of impression.
Now, Dali did a lot of food shoots in his style but all of these never moved me and I care not to ever hang one of them on my wall. I do not care about his intention nor do I care about misled intentions. Many artist expand on themes that could have ended earlier. This happens in in all the branches of art: a bad idea is dressed up, but the attire does not overcome its initial mistep.
In short, I do not examine intentions because after all, different people read different messages from the same piece, rather, I examine how the image makes me feel and I look again on case I have overlooked something. Some images do grow on you while some bite you in the nose.
Yes, I agree with him, that a critique devoid of the crafts technical aspect allows for artistic analyses. After all, the aim is to produce a piece of art and not a perfect photograph. So critiques come in different flavors. I do not want to be told about dof or lighting angles. I would prefer hearing about a more concise presentation of whatever concept. Those that are still learning are more interested in the use of the tools. The more advance are interested in presentation to evoke either an emotion or feeling. Then there are those that create only for the sake of beauty. Here there is no concept nor is there a driving idea. The aim is to capture the sheer force of beauty.
An image should say something to you but you must be willing to look thoroughly. If the technique overpowers the substance there is a problem. These images are good for beginners to learn from. A good image speaks from the heart of the creator. He uses technique to enhance and hone his personal expression, but never to override the initial flavor of the composition. |
|
|
|
09/20/2005 06:14:35 PM · #45 |
Much more eloquent that we are allowed to write in North Carolina :)
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 06:16:07 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Much more eloquent that we are allowed to write in North Carolina :) |
Yep, I reckon so...Jim. ;)
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 06:19:31 PM · #47 |
lol... like i said.. yuns can call me whutever yuns want :)
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 07:37:56 PM · #48 |
I will follow today's 'how to write a critique' post with version 2 sometime tomorrow ;)
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 07:38:19 PM · #49 |
Good job, I guess that means you like all my photos :)
I think what you are saying is important, but I also think that what you are not saying is equally important. i.e. if you thought one of my images was over processed, could be better with a different DOF/focus, or a minor change to the composition could improve it, I would want to know that. Coming from someone like you it would probably make me a better photographer.
|
|
|
|
09/20/2005 07:41:24 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Good job, I guess that means you like all my photos :)
I think what you are saying is important, but I also think that what you are not saying is equally important. i.e. if you thought one of my images was over processed, could be better with a different DOF/focus, or a minor change to the composition could improve it, I would want to know that. Coming from someone like you it would probably make me a better photographer. |
You are correct. In a nutshell, today's post here is simply stating that there is, or should be, more to a photograph than technical aspects. We sometimes tend to focus too heavily on those and forget why the photo was made to start with.
|
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 09/12/2025 07:26:42 AM EDT.
