DPC Lesson Learned - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/24/2002 11:35:41 AM · #3

I'll second gr8photos comment on your piece, John.

Now if you could suggest to Drew and Langdon that newbies have to read and understand this post of yours before they're even allowed to comment on pictures, that might help a lot.... Out of a sad 11 comments I've received so far this week, at least half were totally ignorant regarding possible intentions on the photographer's side - could be that I wanted part of the shot to be OOF, no? - and few actually suggested how to make it a better picture.

Your comment, John, was this: interesting texture but the shallow focus on the left doesn't work for me... = 5 - jmsetzler

fine with me, but this kind of comment: "Left side out of focus"... DUH!

cheers
Bruno

lecalan

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Canon

07/24/2002 11:37:30 AM · #4

Thanks, John! This is a great perspective. Learning how to better yourself through the work of others. I'll have to try this...

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

07/24/2002 11:38:16 AM · #5

I will definitely think about that when giving comments. I am on this site for just that - to improve. One way to do that is to have other photographers point things out that you might not see yet on your own.My Photosif anyone would like to give me some pointers.

daysez

Nikon D200

07/24/2002 11:52:11 AM · #6

John,
Well said, this should be manditory reading for all voters.
As a guide for new voters, and a refocus for experenced voters.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

07/24/2002 11:58:04 AM · #7

Originally posted by BeeGee:
I'll second gr8photos comment on your piece, John.

Now if you could suggest to Drew and Langdon that newbies have to read and understand this post of yours before they're even allowed to comment on pictures, that might help a lot.... Out of a sad 11 comments I've received so far this week, at least half were totally ignorant regarding possible intentions on the photographer's side - could be that I wanted part of the shot to be OOF, no? - and few actually suggested how to make it a better picture.

Your comment, John, was this: interesting texture but the shallow focus on the left doesn't work for me... = 5 - jmsetzler

fine with me, but this kind of comment: "Left side out of focus"... DUH!

cheers
Bruno

No.. I would suggest that every newbie comment freely..

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

07/24/2002 12:04:59 PM · #8

I don''t think it should be directed only to newbies. I''ve seen many comments from others that are just as bad. Many only seem to give positive comments, as if they are afraid to do anything else. I think you should do the same # of positive as critiques.

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/24/2002 12:05:29 PM.

myqyl

Nikon D3100

07/24/2002 12:05:05 PM · #9

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Choose 15 photographs out of each challenge that you do not like. Write a comment to the photographer stating what you donâ��t like about the photo. If you can, suggest a way to improve it.

<Applause> Well said...

I always do my voting first, then I go to the bottom of the barrel, the lowest scores, and start commenting. I force myself to look long and hard at any photo I didn't like and figure out why. Anything below a 5, I have to comment on. Sometimes I've changed my mind about scores and have moved 4's to 7's (rare). ... and I feel fairly certain this has made me critique my viewfinder better.

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

07/24/2002 12:20:48 PM · #10

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[/i]

No.. I would suggest that every newbie comment freely..[/i]

I agree that newcomers to this site should comment freely. I'm sure there are just as many "amateurs" as "professionals" and to make one persons opinion OK but not anothers is wrong. Maybe I'll see something that someone else doesn't. Just because I am an amateur doesn't mean I can't have an eye for beauty. Isn't that what a photograph is? A piece of art? Isn't that a subjective thing?
I think all comments should be welcome and encouraged. Don't make a person afraid to give their opinion.

RedRuthann

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

07/24/2002 12:23:06 PM · #11

My problem is that as a novice, I don't always know 'how' to 'fix' a 'problem'. Sometimes I just feel that the photo is not working for me, but perhaps not sure why or what to do. So, is this still worth commenting on - both for the commenter and the photographer?

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

07/24/2002 12:24:23 PM · #12

Originally posted by RedRuthann:
My problem is that as a novice, I don't always know 'how' to 'fix' a 'problem'. Sometimes I just feel that the photo is not working for me, but perhaps not sure why or what to do. So, is this still worth commenting on - both for the commenter and the photographer?

Absolutely... just comment on what you don't like and then say that you don't have a suggestion for fixing the problem...

FranziskaLang

Nikon D100

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Nikon

07/24/2002 12:29:47 PM · #13

myqyl, i like your voting method, probably because it''s mine, too ;) what i have noticed, and i''m wondering if that''s another reason for people to not comment on photos that they vote lower is that it becomes a bit of a ''drag''. makes you feel negative (even though i try hard to be constructive in my criticism). i''ve started ''rewarding'' myself and for every x low vote photos that i comment on i then comment on one of my high votes and rave (or add constructive criticism if i see any). makes me feel better every time, and i think as important the constructive criticism is, we shouldn''t forget for paying compliments where compliments are due from time to time.

Originally posted by myqyl:
I always do my voting first, then I go to the bottom of the barrel, the lowest scores, and start commenting. I force myself to look long and hard at any photo I didn''t like and figure out why. Anything below a 5, I have to comment on. Sometimes I''ve changed my mind about scores and have moved 4''s to 7''s (rare). ... and I feel fairly certain this has made me critique my viewfinder better.

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/24/2002 12:29:40 PM.

magnetic9999

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

07/24/2002 12:30:06 PM · #14

john, i am so busy today ... is there a cliff notes version of your treatise at the beginning of this thread available ? or should i wait til they make it into a movie? :)

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/24/2002 12:30:32 PM.

Nikon MF 180mm f/2.8 ED AIS

07/24/2002 12:30:19 PM · #15

I agree. Sometimes I really don''t like the photo. I do think I should feel guilty about that. I could just say what I personally don''t like about it.
Any comments - good or bad are needed
I have had 175 votes and only 8 comments

* This message has been edited by the author on 7/24/2002 12:33:09 PM.

RedRuthann

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

07/24/2002 12:57:48 PM · #16

As this is about the 4th week here - getting into a rythym is important. I like the idea of going through and just voting on first impression. Then revisiting the list, starting at the bottom and re-evaluating and adding comments. I have found, that your mood can directly affect the voting - and that voting on so many photos at once, you tend to..maybe..get bored-well that's not the right word, but it becomes redundant at times. I know others have talked about voting and comparing to the other photos - for me that happens, but when I realize that's what I'm doing, then I need to stop and come back later.
OK, I need to stop rambling now.

crisa58

Olympus D-510 Zoom

07/24/2002 01:25:32 PM · #17

Kudos on an excellent "must-read", John.

I think you've taken the only appropriate stand: education. There is an error in requesting comments/critiques and then complaining because they don't say what you want/expect it to say.

By educating all participants, quality and (I hope) frequency of comments will improve.

mcmurma

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

07/24/2002 01:32:23 PM · #18

I just went to the bottom of my picks and tried working my way up through the 4's, giving comments where ever I saw something meaningful to say. (Until now I only commented on the photos in the top 10 percent of my picks)

This was difficult.

I am not a "harsh" rater. I only gave out 1 three, nothing lower. (By the same token, I have also only given 1 ten, but several nine's.) Basically I try to give the photographer the benefit of the doubt, because maybe I just "don't get" their photo. But so many of the photos are black holes for me. No redeeming qualities whatsoever even though they may have some texture and are technically ok.

DPChallenge is interesting in that the photos are viewed entirely out of any other context. If "texture" is the theme, thats all we, as voters, have to go on. So my best advice for anyone that scores low is to keep that in mind when you make your next submission.

autool

Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM

07/24/2002 01:35:44 PM · #19

I have 153 votes for 5.123 and only 5 comments, some ok others not so ok. This is what I am putting in all of my votes now.

Started this after doing 75 or so:

Composition5
Originality7
Technical Aspects4
Meets Challenge6
Total Score6

For those that are just learning, like me.

Composition: Scoring in this area is based on basic composition of a picture and includes the rule of thirds, balance, cropping, and curved and diagonal lines. Subject matter that does not lend itself to the picture or otherwise unwanted is also considered here.

Originality: Scoring in this area is based on pictures or concepts that I have seen, as well as how much effort you have invested in the picture. Usually a little something that sets it aside from a snapshot. Does it make me want to come back for another look? You know things like that.

Technical Aspects: Focus, exposure, lighting, and other special effects (done by the camera), and post processing are all considered in this category.

Meets Challenge: This is based on my interpretation of if you, have/have not, met the challenge. This is fairly simple but quite important for this site.

There are many sites that can give you assistance in achieving better skills in photography, but I think the best way to learn is to take pictures and show them to other people. Believe me when it is a good one you will know it.

Good luck!

Autool

I will wait to see how it is accepted.

07/24/2002 01:38:04 PM · #20

That is my point, and I'm surprised others aren't agreeing. Isn't this a challenge? Doesn't that mean winners and loosers? I think we should be comparing them! How else do you come to a winner?
And # 1 on that list of comparisons should be quality and # 2 does it meet the challenge.

BAMartin

Apple iPhone 5

07/24/2002 01:40:01 PM · #21

Autool, I like this way of scoring as well. Do you mind if I borrow it for my own use?

Barbara

Nikon MF 180mm f/2.8 ED AIS

07/24/2002 01:43:33 PM · #22

Number scoring is much better than nothing, but a personal opinion or suggestion would be nice too.

mcmurma

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

07/24/2002 01:47:08 PM · #23

I am using a new system for comments as well (adopted directly from yours Autool! hope you don't mind). Mine however, has far fewer variables.

It was helpful for me to compress everything down to two scores: Aesthetics and Meets Challenge.

Aesthetics is a fancy word for Do I like it?
Meets Challenge is just what it says, How well do I think it fits the challenge?

Granted there is not near the feedback available as with your system, but then its not like were commenting on every photo. Also, I am signing my comments as well, so feel free to request explanations or more feedback.

07/24/2002 01:53:27 PM · #24

Mcmurma thats fine for how you score it, but doesn't help the person improve - you need some explanation

autool