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 11/15/2004 10:26:27 AM · #101
Originally posted by pcody:
[...]I will use the full 1-10 to rank them.


I did this last time as it meant I was better able to split the images according to how much I liked them - 10 levels instead of 4 or 5. I was slated for it because so many Masters were desperately worried about the impact on their Average score!!! I was quite surprised given that average score isn't really that useful a tool with which to judge oneself against others because the standards of the site have changed so much since its conception - look at early ribbon winners (in terms of quality and score) and compare with today. Given that some people have Average scores taking in many older entries and some have Averages from more recent efforts - it's hardly a useful comparative tool! Anyway, just a friendly warning! LOL
 11/15/2004 10:33:12 AM · #102
Originally posted by giega:
Originally posted by Imagineer:
It appears to me that many of our 'masters' have offered us a masterclass in how to:
> ignore the brief or misinterpret it
> bludgeon a photo with digital effects
> forsake photographic integrity.

This is really quite appalling and I don't think this is at all helpful to demonstrate photographic skill or sensitive post-processing to newbies or aspirational non-masters.

It looks a bit like Photoshop kindergarten to me I'm afraid (with a few great exceptions).


I agree. I looked through the photos and I am not sure how to vote. How to compare the photo that was made by the manipulating the camera and the photo that was manipulated by PS?


Vote after what you see as impressionism, colors,subject and use of light. Not after effect. :-)
11/15/2004 10:33:56 AM · #103
Originally posted by giega:
I agree. I looked through the photos and I am not sure how to vote. How to compare the photo that was made by the manipulating the camera and the photo that was manipulated by PS?

How do you know that the photo was manipulated by PS?

There are a lot of creative people on this site, and they may have come up with a way to achieve a "PS-looking effect" without having to resort to using a PS filter.

Are you really going to "vote them lower" just because you think the effect was achieved by some post-processing "filter"?

Message edited by author 2004-11-15 10:34:37.
 11/15/2004 10:35:08 AM · #104
Vote on the image as you see it, not how you guess it was done.
 11/15/2004 10:36:34 AM · #105
I just finished voting this little challenge and I feel that the good is really good, but some of the bad is downright awful! (Someone mentioned PS kindergarden... made me chuckle 'cause thats just what I thinking.)

So I guess this means I agree with Kavey :)
 11/15/2004 10:36:46 AM · #106
Originally posted by Konador:
Vote on the image as you see it, not how you guess it was done.


I agree. I'm not worrying about how I think the image was achieved - solely considering whether I like the final result and how well I feel it conveys the light, colour and moment aspects of impressionism to me. There are some that capture light, mood and colour just wonderfully and still provide a pleasing composition too.
 11/15/2004 10:37:54 AM · #107
Thanks for the warning. Still. I've looked thru them and expect most of the scores to be in the middle range (5,6,7) with a few higher ones and maybe a couple of lower ones. But this is such a subjective challenge, and my opinion is just one opinion out of hundreds, so it will all wash out at the end.
 11/15/2004 10:45:24 AM · #108
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by giega:
I agree. I looked through the photos and I am not sure how to vote. How to compare the photo that was made by the manipulating the camera and the photo that was manipulated by PS?

How do you know that the photo was manipulated by PS?

There are a lot of creative people on this site, and they may have come up with a way to achieve a "PS-looking effect" without having to resort to using a PS filter.

Are you really going to "vote them lower" just because you think the effect was achieved by some post-processing "filter"?


But there are also very creative people in PS.

I will use Terje's and Konador's suggestions.

Also, I haven't voted yet, so don't get your panties in a bunch. ;-)

Message edited by author 2004-11-15 10:48:56.
 11/15/2004 10:46:22 AM · #109
Originally posted by EddyG:
How do you know that the photo was manipulated by PS?

There are a lot of creative people on this site, and they may have come up with a way to achieve a "PS-looking effect" without having to resort to using a PS filter.

Are you really going to "vote them lower" just because you think the effect was achieved by some post-processing "filter"?

Quite. Some of us are good at spotting the FX filters, some are not. All the more reason to limit their use (especially in Masters challenges). The point is, the Masters should be better at challenge-winning photography without using Photoshop gimmicks.
 11/15/2004 10:47:57 AM · #110
PS gone mad.

There are some that look possibly PS filtered, but look good. I'm marking these generously.
There are some that are OBVIOUSLY PS filtered that just look filtered. These are marked as photos that have violated photographic integrity.

Edit: I'm commenting on them all, and if I vote low because of obvious use of filters, I'm saying so on the comment.

Message edited by author 2004-11-15 10:49:11.
 11/15/2004 10:49:06 AM · #111
Originally posted by Imagineer:
Originally posted by EddyG:
How do you know that the photo was manipulated by PS?

There are a lot of creative people on this site, and they may have come up with a way to achieve a "PS-looking effect" without having to resort to using a PS filter.

Are you really going to "vote them lower" just because you think the effect was achieved by some post-processing "filter"?

Quite. Some of us are good at spotting the FX filters, some are not. All the more reason to limit their use (especially in Masters challenges). The point is, the Masters should be better at challenge-winning photography without using Photoshop gimmicks.


Some of us so called "Masters" have never tried to take a picture of another medium like this before. I'm laughing at some of these comments about how hard it is to vote. You should ponder on how hard it is to figure out how to take the picture. I would bet NONE of the "masters" have a wealth of knowledge shooting this type of work. These are all very bold entries and deserve a little credit for such a difficult challenge. I had a GREAT time with this challenge. Kudos to all who were daring enough entered it.

Message edited by author 2004-11-15 11:19:12.
 11/15/2004 10:52:14 AM · #112
Since I'm obviously one with less photographic knowledge than most here, I can't tell which ones were filtered and which ones were done in camera. Therefore in my naiveté, I found the shots beautiful and with merit...all of them...and voted as such. Chalk it up to my own stupidity or my oddball nature. I think they all deserve credit for doing something different, unique, and (OMG) challenging. ;o)
 11/15/2004 11:13:11 AM · #113
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Since I'm obviously one with less photographic knowledge than most here, I can't tell which ones were filtered and which ones were done in camera. Therefore in my naiveté, I found the shots beautiful and with merit...all of them...and voted as such. Chalk it up to my own stupidity or my oddball nature. I think they all deserve credit for doing something different, unique, and (OMG) challenging. ;o)


Thanks Laurie that is the attitude I like to see!

One thing that I think is being overlooked here is that the so-called âMastersâ had no choice in the administrations decision to hold the challenge. We have been temporarily segregated into a group, and 39 of us tried to make the best of it. I generally ignore most of the comments made in threads where people are trying to second-guess the topic and how it should be done, as this seems to have little effect on the final outcome of the challenge.

Who decided that filters could not be used to tune up the entry for this challenge? Does that mean that nobody should use Neat Image or Unsharpen Mask, Etc., Etc?

Again Thanks to those that can keep an open mind and judge the final picture and not so much how it was made.
11/15/2004 11:18:11 AM · #114
The downside of a fair bit of filter use is that people assume pictures not manipulated with special filters, are. I did not apply a filter to my entry, yet I got the comment, "I like how you made it look like ...". I did't "make it look like..." anything. That's the way it was. Bummer.
11/15/2004 11:19:04 AM · #115
But, on the bright side, I think that most entries to the challenge are quite boring, including my own. I think I forgot content over trying to make an impressionistic picture.
 11/15/2004 11:20:17 AM · #116
Originally posted by EddyG:
There are a lot of creative people on this site, and they may have come up with a way to achieve a "PS-looking effect" without having to resort to using a PS filter.


I agree. Most of these entries could be achieved with or without Photoshop, so I can assume nothing. The people in this group have been around DPC long enough to know that filters are generally scorned, but there's nothing in the rules to prohibit their use either. For that reason, I can only vote on how much I like the final result.
 11/15/2004 11:51:36 AM · #117
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
PS gone mad.

There are some that look possibly PS filtered, but look good. I'm marking these generously.
There are some that are OBVIOUSLY PS filtered that just look filtered. These are marked as photos that have violated photographic integrity.

Edit: I'm commenting on them all, and if I vote low because of obvious use of filters, I'm saying so on the comment.


Aren't we supposed to be voting on how well we like the picture and how well it meets the challenge? Bobster, Imagineer please take a second to let us all know which filters are acceptable to you. there are some available even in the basic rule set. Once you decide which we can use....then let us know to what degree we can use them. This is all missing information in the challenge description.
I don't mean for this to sound disrespectful, you both have my respect as photographers. But there is nothing in the rules that restricts the use of filters in this challenge.
 11/15/2004 11:56:51 AM · #118
Gringo -

> achieving impressionism through use of objects, colour, light, elements and intrigue outside of computer = cool, impressive, useful, inspirational

> using a process or filter to turn photo into impressionism = poor and pointless.

It's that simple to me.
 11/15/2004 12:13:54 PM · #119
Originally posted by Imagineer:
Gringo -

> achieving impressionism through use of objects, colour, light, elements and intrigue outside of computer = cool, impressive, useful, inspirational

> using a process or filter to turn photo into impressionism = poor and pointless.

It's that simple to me.


I understand and I expected the photographic integerity comments to fly throughout this challenge because it is a photography contest. I am not lashing out at you or anyone else who is voting however they see fit. But wouldn't it be nice if the challenge descriptions in difficult challenges like this one, were more specific. Much of this thread is discussing effects, tools we can and can't use in this challenge. It simply isn't very clear for both the photographers and the voters.
I do respect your opinion, and I appreciate your candor and honest evaluation in your comments of my entry. I still like it, but even I question it's photographic integrity. Flame away! One line of type in the challenge description would have made this challenge much easier for both the photographers and the voters. "keep photographic integrity" But it wasn't in there, so....it doesn't apply. I have no problem with your stand on this, this is a photography contest.
 11/15/2004 12:17:26 PM · #120
I thought this was a 'no photographic integrity' challenge. I thought that was the point.

...would explain my score :P
 11/15/2004 12:20:47 PM · #121
Originally posted by Konador:
I thought this was a 'no photographic integrity' challenge. I thought that was the point.

...would explain my score :P


I somehow got that feeling too.
 11/15/2004 12:26:58 PM · #122
Originally posted by laurielblack:
[...]I think they all deserve credit for doing something different, unique, and (OMG) challenging. ;o)


I agree. I'm certainly all for giving credit. Hats off to all who were willing to give such a difficult challenge a go and to enter and share their efforts with the rest of us.

All I am saying is that I won't give high scores just because I think people were brave to take on this challenge but based, as always, on what I think of the entry.

Originally posted by autool:
Who decided that filters could not be used to tune up the entry for this challenge? Does that mean that nobody should use Neat Image or Unsharpen Mask, Etc., Etc?

Again Thanks to those that can keep an open mind and judge the final picture and not so much how it was made.


Personally, since filters were not excluded by the challenge description or rules I don't see an issue with using them. However, if I don't appreciate the end results I'll score lower. But, just to underline, I'm not basing my scores on the USE of filters but on my personal opinion on the final image. Likewise if I really like an image I'll score it high, regardless of whether I think filters have been used or not.

On another note, I certainly have more admiration and respect for those who achieved their results without the use of filters - just because it's an impressive feat and shows a lot of creativity.

But that won't affect my scores. At the end of the day, I'm more interested in the image itself and how much I like it.
 11/15/2004 12:33:23 PM · #123
My score:

So far I have forty 10's and 40 1's
I'm average :)

I knew this would be a love it or hate it challenge for me.


Message edited by author 2004-11-15 12:34:45.
 11/15/2004 12:39:56 PM · #124
I really wish this was a basic editing challenge...it would have been neat to see what kind of effects entrants had achieved right out of the camera.
 11/15/2004 12:56:00 PM · #125
Originally posted by Gringo:
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
PS gone mad.

There are some that look possibly PS filtered, but look good. I'm marking these generously.
There are some that are OBVIOUSLY PS filtered that just look filtered. These are marked as photos that have violated photographic integrity.

Edit: I'm commenting on them all, and if I vote low because of obvious use of filters, I'm saying so on the comment.


Aren't we supposed to be voting on how well we like the picture and how well it meets the challenge? Bobster, Imagineer please take a second to let us all know which filters are acceptable to you. there are some available even in the basic rule set. Once you decide which we can use....then let us know to what degree we can use them. This is all missing information in the challenge description.
I don't mean for this to sound disrespectful, you both have my respect as photographers. But there is nothing in the rules that restricts the use of filters in this challenge.


It's a question of taste. I don't care for the unimaginative use of PS filters that supposedly turn photos into paintings. It can look like somebody who is experimenting with PS for the first time, and while everybody needs to do this at some point, when I'm handing points out in a competitive challenge I'm going to deduct points for the 'subtle as a brick' application of filters which don't exercise any imagination or creativity on the behalf of those who are using it.
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