am I kidding myself here? - DPChallenge Forums

11/11/2002 02:57:38 PM · #26

There is a lot of good info there and many of the people seem very knowledgeable.

There are also a lot more self-important, dyed in the wool, film
photographers that don't want anything to do with all this new fangled
nonsense that isn't photography at all. The forums seem quite
cranky in that respect. So it has quite a strange mix of good
photography and bad people

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

11/11/2002 02:59:49 PM · #27

A question to maybe ask yourself before you submit.

'Would I buy this ?'
'Do I have a good reason to submit this?'
'Do I already know what is wrong or how this could be improved?'

You don't have to have a good answer to each and every one of
these, but if the first two are no, and the third one is yes then
it is unlikely you'll get a good score.

Look at it another way, if you were good enough to be making money
professionally, would you be submitting to DPC ? If you aren't that
good yet, then there is always room for improvement. The times I've
felt that the voters didn't 'get me' or were being 'dumb or stupid'
I had to take a long, hard look at the picture I liked so much and
started to notice the flaws and mistakes in it more and understand
how I could improve the next time around. It is easier to blame people
for not being sophisticated enough to appreciate your work, it is
harder to turn that around and learn from it and improve.

* This message has been edited by the author on 11/11/2002 3:07:18 PM.

Sonifo

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

11/11/2002 03:40:42 PM · #28

Gordon, Sometimes I look at my photo and see a perfect picture, but then I get a comment stating the flaws. I then start to see what is wrong. It is also nice to have them tell me how to fix my photo. Like this one. Corvette I tried and tried to get the whole vehicle to be in focus. I messed with my dof and aperture, took shots at different angles, and moved the light around. Man, was I frustrated. I ended up submitting another that no one likes, but I think is a good macro. Low score and no comments. I am upset because I can't get any better when they give me a low score and don't tell me what is wrong with the photo. They could put one word. Boring! That would work for me.

timj351

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

11/11/2002 03:48:13 PM · #29

Well said, Gordon. I feel that the most important thing to learn is the ability to be your own crtic by learning to view your photos very objectively. This includes considering what others think about your work. As you improve you will be able to discern which comments are valid and which are not. You have to have the mindset of knowing that all of your photos can be improved somehow and it is your job to find out how. I have many photos that I know are flawed in many ways but I love them regardless, but that is because I am also viewing them subjectively as well. That's perfectly fine for your own photos but when you go to sell your photos professionally it's necessary that the photos are both pleasing and technically sound. If you are too attached to your photos on an emotional level so that it interferes with seeing your photos objectively you will have some serious problems trying to sell them professionally.

T

alanfreed

Nikon D6

11/11/2002 03:49:52 PM · #30

Originally posted by BigSmiles:
Like seriously guys. Is my photography that bad?

Ugh. I know I'm going to sound rather snotty here, and I'm sorry... but puh-leeez! You've been with the site long enough to know how it works -- sometimes we score well, and other times we don't. I won the challenge a few weeks ago, and I'm sucking wind in the low 4s as it stands right now.

It's all about learning here. A low score doesn't necessarily make you a "bad photographer" -- it often only implies that you didn't play well to the audience that particular week. I'm only ranting about this because you have posted similar threads in the past with this same theme... and I think you should just try to learn from a low score instead of complain about it afterwards. Take the good with the bad, and LEARN from the site. :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/11/2002 04:03:16 PM · #31

You can be proud of your photo for reasons other than composition or technical excellence. Sometimes coming up with a unique or important idea to communicate is more important than the technical execution.

I'm not always trying to submit a photo which I'd expect to sell, or even place in the top 25 here. But it's obvious that not every photo is going to win, and I accept the probability that mine won't and see what people have to say anyway. I've had maybe two photos where I thought the group scored them "unfairly" low, but overall I think the group's rankings and my own scoring aren't that far apart...

paganini

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

11/11/2002 04:53:31 PM · #32

Yes your photography sucks :) just kidding.

But look, you should know by now that the average vote on DPC doesn't mean much. It doesn't mean you're a good photographer or a bad one. It just means the consensus of the DPc voters think of you as "4.5".

I have seen plenty of photos that made it to the top 10 as mediocre, and plenty of photos that made it to bottom 10 as interesting :) Sometimes a photo gets rated because of the CONTENT rather the the merits.

And sometimes, the photo gets rated down because it sucked. :) Generally speaking, a photograph that gets an average of 6.7 versus that that gets an average of 4.0, it would mean something. But a photograph that gets 6.7 versus another photograph that gets 6.0, will not have as much of a difference because all it means is someone may get more 8's than more 9's. And the difference between the ratings are subjective based on each individual, and thus, it doesn't really make much of a difference. However, a 0.7 difference in average scores will net you about a 40 place difference depending on the number of entries.

Arachnophilia

Logitech ClickSmart 510

11/11/2002 05:12:40 PM · #33

i finally got around to submitting something this week and i'm getting considerably lower than i'd hoped.

it seems that because i don't have a high end camera, or because i don't do the standard photographic things that people on here like, my photos won't get very high in the votes area.

i noticed this with other people's work too. my favourite photo last week placed dead last, and one of my least favourites WON.

now, i mean, come on guys. really. lets vote on the photos based on artistic composition, lines, colors, and creativity, not "technical ability" or how good the camera is.

and don't give things a low vote because they're abstract. or because they are low quality jpeg-wise. those can be VERY interesting aspects of digital photography. if i wanted something that looks like it was taken by a manual anolog camera, i'd use a manual analog camera, and scan it in. use the medium for what it is, and don't give things low votes because the medium is apparent.

if the picture is interesting, uses the medium well, and is composed well... it deserves a good vote. even if you can't tell what it is. if you think it doesn't meet the challenge, think about it a little longer, and it probably does. people put thought into these when they are shooting them, and you should show them the same respect when voting.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

11/11/2002 05:17:02 PM · #34

Originally posted by timj351:
Well said, Gordon. I feel that the most important thing to learn is the ability to be your own crtic by learning to view your photos very objectively. This includes considering what others think about your work. As you improve you will be able to discern which comments are valid and which are not.

I've found that. Looking back at the pictures I've taken in the last year, I know that there is not one picture that I could pick and say 'I'm happy with this' without wanting to qualify it by saying, "but I'd change this", or "I would do this differently", or recognising one or other flaws in the image. Not one picture that I'm entirely happy with.
Out of about 7000 that I've taken. Either that is really sad, or acknowledges the fact that I've learned a great deal in the last year and
can now see the mistakes or issues more clearly.

There are lots of those pictures that I really like - that doesn't mean
I have any real illusions about how good they are, or how much better they could be. I'm in this to learn how to take better pictures, not to
complain about people not recognising what could have been, or what might be hiding beneath the technical issues or compositional errors.

What I can't easily say is how I got from where I was a year ago to
where I am now, other than reading a lot, taking a lot of pictures,
really trying to learn from each and every one of the 'bad' pictures,
and not making the same mistakes twice, when possible.

The pictures I'm taking just are, to me, much better than what I thought
were really good 6 months ago - I'm sure in another 6 months I'll have
moved on enough to be able to pick these current ones appart too.

Its a journey, not a destination.

paganini

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/11/2002 05:20:12 PM · #35

A lot of times the photo gets rated down due to the content versus the merits. It's all very subjective and that's the way it is here :) i have given up trying to convince people to vote objectively.

Originally posted by Arachnophilia:
i finally got around to submitting something this week and i'm getting considerably lower than i'd hoped.

it seems that because i don't have a high end camera, or because i don't do the standard photographic things that people on here like, my photos won't get very high in the votes area.

i noticed this with other people's work too. my favourite photo last week placed dead last, and one of my least favourites WON.

now, i mean, come on guys. really. lets vote on the photos based on artistic composition, lines, colors, and creativity, not "technical ability" or how good the camera is.

and don't give things a low vote because they're abstract. or because they are low quality jpeg-wise. those can be VERY interesting aspects of digital photography. if i wanted something that looks like it was taken by a manual anolog camera, i'd use a manual analog camera, and scan it in. use the medium for what it is, and don't give things low votes because the medium is apparent.

if the picture is interesting, uses the medium well, and is composed well... it deserves a good vote. [i]even if you can't tell what it is. if you think it doesn't meet the challenge, think about it a little longer, and it probably does. people put thought into these when they are shooting them, and you should show them the same respect when voting.[/i]

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/11/2002 05:26:46 PM · #36

Originally posted by paganini:
A lot of times the photo gets rated down due to the content versus the merits. It's all very subjective and that's the way it is here :) i have given up trying to convince people to vote objectively.

I find it interesting that photos seem to be voted down (on average) for unpopular content, but rarely do images seem to receive a comparable boost for outstanding content despite their technical or artistic flaws.

11/11/2002 05:29:18 PM · #37

Originally posted by Arachnophilia:

and don't give things a low vote because they're abstract. or because they are low quality jpeg-wise. those can be VERY interesting aspects of digital photography. if i wanted something that looks like it was taken by a manual anolog camera, i'd use a manual analog camera, and scan it in. use the medium for what it is, and don't give things low votes because the medium is apparent.

Its hard to find JPEG artefacts interesting, photographically.
Its roughly equivalent to finding accidentally scratched negatives
interesting. Bad technique is bad technique, no matter
what medium you use to display it in.

Creative scratching or editing of negatives is an entirely different thing - JPEG artefacts aren't introduced under creative control, unless you've started writing your own JPEG algorithms (in which case it is extremely easy to cause unwanted artefacts everywhere...)

11/11/2002 05:46:50 PM · #38

ok let me piss a few off here.

First off...the very people you complain to about the votes are other members here that ARE those voting people. It takes more than 1 or 2 votes to get where you are in the rankings. The time it takes to post about how bad your score is within the first day and maybe 45 people have voted out of 302 submits...it could be spent surfing the web and seeing how you can improve yourself. Maybe wait until the end of the week and ask...wow my score is low..how can I make that photo better?

Sure we all get down...but the way you handle it is what will make you or break you.

If you want help...it's here....read some tutorials and help links. Post a photo and ask what you can do to make that photo better. Then take what's said and TRY to make it better. THAT's how you get answers and learn to be better.

timj351

11/11/2002 05:55:53 PM · #39

Even the lowest quality camera being used on this site can produce very good results from a good photographer who understands the camera's limitations. The photographer will not try to take a photo that the camera is not capable of, instead he will concentrate on what the camera can do well. I'm sure all of the cameras here are capable of taking clean, artifact free photos at 640x480 pixels using the right conditions.

T

BigSmiles

Canon EOS-10D

11/11/2002 05:58:28 PM · #40

Ok. when you start getting frequent 4 scores come talk to me. Right now i"m pissed off and I"m allowed to be. I go to school every day learning how to be a better photographer. I don't necessarily know how to please the DPC voters as can be seen in my profile. The scores I've been getting have been going down at a steady pace. I do not have the same amount of time I used to have to think about and prepare my shots for this website.

This week I set up a shot I was happy with hoping to better my score just a little and so far it isn't as bad as it was. Still pretty bad but not as painful.

I might not always submit things I would submit to school for assignments or submit to a contest... but I"m submitting images almost weekly and that's an accomplishment in itself.

So please stop telling me I should stop whining and go learn something cuz I'm already doing it. Let me whine. If you dont like it you dont have to read the RANT threads.

11/11/2002 06:03:48 PM · #41

If you don't want honest answers then don't post:)

As you said...you aren't posting your best work due to time ect...so maybe there lies your down fall.

BigSmiles

Canon EOS-10D

11/11/2002 06:05:36 PM · #42

this is a rant posting. I'm whining. Take your "better than thou" attitude and march right on out of here.

Canon EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

11/11/2002 06:10:22 PM · #43

It seems your ALL day whiney attitude hasn't changed. btw... you don't tell me where or what to post. Anyway...not worth the keystrokes. Enjoy your misery as you wallow in it:)

drewmedia

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

11/11/2002 06:11:49 PM · #44

And that'll do it for this thread :)

timj351

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

11/11/2002 06:12:15 PM · #45

and if you don't like our opinions you don't have to read them either ; )

It isn't easy trying to figure out what people like or why. Part of the reason is that this crowd is world wide and extremely diverse and that's exactly why I like this site. I like trying to please everyone with my photos as long as it is still my style of work. For me, that is the primary challenge here. I think if you want to be successful here you have to realize that you can't change what people think but you can try to understand it and apply it to your photos.

T

paganini

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/11/2002 06:12:28 PM · #46

LOL. This is one of the best whining post threads :-)

Don't piss Shizzamm off or she'll ban you like she did with me for 2 weeks ;) hehehhehehehe.