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07/11/2005 09:07:19 PM · #51
Originally posted by amber:


Can you add gradients to that list?

I don't see why not! :) Good suggestion.
07/11/2005 09:09:24 PM · #52
janruss - how much sharpening did you do? I'm really impressed with the photo.
07/11/2005 09:35:59 PM · #53
Hi Bebe, thanks. Which photo? If you're talking about Waimea Canyon (in this forum), I did the processing last month sometime and didn't record the different steps I went through. My usual settings for unsharp mask: Amount 139%, 0.7 Radius, Threshold 0 levels; and then after resizing I'll sharpen some more usually 85% or lower depending on the look, Radius 1.0 Radius, Threshold 4 levels. Do you think the finished image looks oversharpened? Looking at it up close, I think it's a little oversharpened.

Originally posted by Bebe:

janruss - how much sharpening did you do? I'm really impressed with the photo.
07/11/2005 09:44:08 PM · #54
Originally posted by janruss:

Hi Bebe, thanks. Which photo? If you're talking about Waimea Canyon (in this forum), I did the processing last month sometime and didn't record the different steps I went through. My usual settings for unsharp mask: Amount 139%, 0.7 Radius, Threshold 0 levels; and then after resizing I'll sharpen some more usually 85% or lower depending on the look, Radius 1.0 Radius, Threshold 4 levels. Do you think the finished image looks oversharpened? Looking at it up close, I think it's a little oversharpened.

Originally posted by Bebe:

janruss - how much sharpening did you do? I'm really impressed with the photo.

I agree, janruss did an excellent job sharpening the Waimea Canyon image.

Sharpening is another one of those fundamental concepts of post-processing.

I, for one, would like this as a priority topic for an early lesson. I fight with sharpening in every image that has fine detail in it.

Sharpening is a lot more sophisticated than just applying USM in the right amounts. There are all kinds of ways to sharpen and some of them are complex. I'd like to become more familiar with them.

Message edited by author 2005-07-11 21:47:06.
07/11/2005 09:52:47 PM · #55
Janruss... I selected the air brush tool, set it to opacity 18% and flow of 20%. Then I selected a yellowish color out of the color list. Just sprayed over it until I got enough of the yellow on there that I thought looked good.
07/11/2005 10:05:59 PM · #56
Originally posted by janruss:

How did you do #5 (add a little bit of yellow tone to the onion using spray brush)?

Originally posted by JayWalk:


I think this may be a very good image for us to work on. Here is my attempt:

Ideally I would have liked to isolate each of the veggies on a seperate layer and play with them individually, but just didn't have the time. I also tried to remove the hard flash light.

1) Copied Layer
2) Adjusted levels, color balance and contrast
3) Adjusted Hue's and Saturation
4) Cloned out the hard flash areas on the plate, eggplant and pepper
5) Added a bit of yellow tone to the onion using spray brush
5) Unsharp mask
6) Added border


Am I correct that you used the spray can to spray yellow directly on the onion on an actual image layer? That is what it looks like to me.

If so, I would suggest being very careful using the spray can and/or airbrushing like that. I've done it before, but only as a last resort when other things don't work and only then to fill in overexposed areas of an image.

When you do this here are things to keep in mind. Spray/airbrush at the lowest opacity possible to get a realistic effect. Hand painting is notoriously artificial looking and has a tendency to stick out like a sore thumb.

Another thing you can do that helps is that you can make a selection of the whole object that you want to paint and then you can easily paint right up to the edge without worrying about spilling off the object and onto other areas of the image.

It is best to use other techniques to enhance colors of objects but they are based on the colors that are already there. In this case I believe the onion is really white and not yellow to begin with and that is why you had to use the spray can or airbrushing to add the yellow color.
07/11/2005 10:47:13 PM · #57
OK Here's my original ( I tend to underexpose so that I can pull out more detail in PS



This is after levels, B/C and selective colour



Sepia version

07/12/2005 12:11:16 AM · #58
Originally posted by amber:

OK Here's my original ( I tend to underexpose so that I can pull out more detail in PS .......

Pretty cool! Good job on the sepia tone. I have another favorite color for B&W - it's kind of a wine color that looks great on a lot of images.

I think your highlights on the bridge may be blown a bit, and there are a couple ways you can try to fix it:
-In the Levels dialog box, there is an "Output" section with two sliders. If you drag the RIGHT (white) slider slightly to the left, you will tone down your brightest whites. What you're actually doing is redefining what white IS for the image - think if it how you prefer;
...or...
-Duplicate the source layer by selecting it and hitting CTRL+J on the keyboard. On the copy, select your burn tool, set it to "highlights", and set the exposure to 1-2%. Very carefully, darken the blown areas.

GREAT job on the homework so far. I'm actually pretty excited to see stdavidson't explanation of "Painting with Color". One of the fantastic things about Photoshop is there are so many great ways to do things.

Message edited by author 2005-07-12 00:13:11.
07/12/2005 12:14:13 AM · #59
Kate... Nicely done!! Those are big improvements over the original. I assume this is your homework from the "adjustment layers" lesson and that you did all that in layers.

I like to do my sepias and black and white versions in the same source file as my color version. That way I can switch from color to B&W or sepia by just switching off the proper layers to print whichever version I want. Then I just have one source image file for everything.
07/12/2005 12:34:42 AM · #60
Thanks;)

Am I wrong to underexpose?

Yes, it's my layers 'homework'.

Here's a quick burn attempt



07/12/2005 12:40:22 AM · #61
GREAT job on the homework so far. I'm actually pretty excited to see stdavidson't explanation of "Painting with Color".

Yea, I like using that too here's one I did recently using that method

07/12/2005 01:03:49 AM · #62
Originally posted by amber:

GREAT job on the homework so far. I'm actually pretty excited to see stdavidson't explanation of "Painting with Color".

Yea, I like using that too here's one I did recently using that method


Kate... yeah, this is my kinda post processing. :)

It is better to underexpose than overexpose, but underexposing will result in more electronic noise in your images than properly exposed ones. Big shocker there, huh?

If you underexpose to get richer colors you can achieve the same results with less noise by taking a properly exposed image and then in "Curves" making your curves diagonal line into a shallow concave curve instead of the classic "S" curve.
07/12/2005 10:57:17 AM · #63
I'm looking for some advice on this one. I processed Olyuzi's image, using JUST a little curves and then saturation levels for each color. I even sharpened a little at the end. WHat I ended up with was a blurry mess.

Does curves/saturation actually degrade the sharpness of an image? I was watching colors the whole time, but I guess not paying attention to clarity.

Any advice?

Originally posted by Bebe:

Original: ]

My effort:

07/12/2005 11:12:35 AM · #64
HI Bebe, that's a pretty good manipulation of my photo. It wasn't that sharp to begin with as the DOF was pretty narrow and the camera was front focusing so that in the original only looked sharp in the front potatoes. Also, I think another problem is that we are working on an image that is a mere 150k. But I think you did a fine job with the color and tonality.

Originally posted by Bebe:

I'm looking for some advice on this one. I processed Olyuzi's image, using JUST a little curves and then saturation levels for each color. I even sharpened a little at the end. WHat I ended up with was a blurry mess.

Does curves/saturation actually degrade the sharpness of an image? I was watching colors the whole time, but I guess not paying attention to clarity.

Any advice?

Originally posted by Bebe:

Original: ]

My effort:
07/12/2005 11:25:01 AM · #65
THanks, Olyuzi. Yours still seems sharper to me; I think I must have lost some clarity on the way ...
07/12/2005 11:36:47 AM · #66
Originally posted by Bebe:

THanks, Olyuzi. Yours still seems sharper to me; I think I must have lost some clarity on the way ...

Olyuzi's explanation does indeed cover part of the problem. There is something else to look at, but to explain it requires an "advance peek" at a future training topic:

What is sharpness? What is the defining difference between an blurry image and a sharp one? How does a filter like "Unsharp Mask (USM)" simulate sharpness? Rather than try to give you a technical definition, let's just look at some examples:



You will notice the RIGHT picture appears to be quite a bit sharper than the LEFT picture. WHY? The answer is really pretty simple. The RIGHT picture has very sharp contrast on the edges of the feet. Even the background texture appears sharper. Here's a closeup of the two images, side by side:



When you do Unsharp Mask (USM) to a layer, Photoshop CREATES high contrast areas on the edges of the image. The greater the contrast, the more sharp your image will appear. Of course, this can be done too much, making the image look un-natural. Our example image was given way too much, and has an easy-to-spot "halo" around the edges.

One note: By simply increasing contrast, you can sharpen an image somewhat. However, the difference between a simple contrast change and USM is that USM "looks for edges" and ADDS high contrast areas to them.

--------

Now that we've taken on sharpness and USM a little bit, are you starting to understand why "Curves" has the potential to make the image blurry? Because "Curves" can selectively brighten or darken a VERY specific range of color/luminosity, it is possible to essentially REMOVE the high contrast edge, making the image appear blurry again.

Message edited by author 2005-07-12 12:08:30.
07/12/2005 12:12:38 PM · #67
David, I have read that using USM in PS creates two different zones of contrast at the contours of subjects...a light one and a dark one. Is it beneficial to decrease the lighter one using "fade unsharp mask in order to decrease the noticeable effect of USM but still to increase sharpness?

Also, when doing image manipulation with curves, levels and hue/sat, to maintain a sharp image is it beneficial to raise the saturation of the colors where you want to have the highest contrast/sharpness in the picture? Would this be an additional way of adding "sharpness" at the local level? Conversely, to instill a sense of softness it beneficial to decrease contrast?

Hope I"m not jumping too far ahead.
07/12/2005 12:24:31 PM · #68
Hmmmmmm... Looks to me like there is a lot of interest in sharpening. I'm REALLY anxious to see that lesson myself. There is a lot to that topic.

Some people are interested in the "painting with color" technique I mentioned. That one depends on proper selection techniques as a prerequisite and selections just happens to be is what I am working on now. :)

Sounds like we are heading in the right direction so far. :)
07/12/2005 12:32:28 PM · #69
Originally posted by Olyuzi:

David, I have read that using USM in PS creates two different zones of contrast at the contours of subjects...a light one and a dark one. Is it beneficial to decrease the lighter one using "fade unsharp mask in order to decrease the noticeable effect of USM but still to increase sharpness?

Also, when doing image manipulation with curves, levels and hue/sat, to maintain a sharp image is it beneficial to raise the saturation of the colors where you want to have the highest contrast/sharpness in the picture? Would this be an additional way of adding "sharpness" at the local level? Conversely, to instill a sense of softness it beneficial to decrease contrast?

Hope I"m not jumping too far ahead.

I hate to answer your questions with generalities, but my answer to all of them is "sometimes". It really depends on the photo and the result you are trying to achive.

I don't generally do a "fade USM"; I just try to get it where I want it when the USM dialog box is open.

You can do sharpening at the "local level" by using the sharpen tool. Best advice, if you want to play with it, is realize that it is a destructive tool. Always duplicate your source first (CTRL+J). Also, keep in mind that the sharpen tool will invalidate your entry for "Basic Editing" challenges.
07/12/2005 12:44:28 PM · #70
Steve, I think that whatever you guys present us with is great, and I'm learning a heck of a lot so far. Both "painting with color" and "selection techniques" are definitely topics that I'm interested in learning so I leave it to you and David to decide what would be best in the learning curve here.

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Hmmmmmm... Looks to me like there is a lot of interest in sharpening. I'm REALLY anxious to see that lesson myself. There is a lot to that topic.

Some people are interested in the "painting with color" technique I mentioned. That one depends on proper selection techniques as a prerequisite and selections just happens to be is what I am working on now. :)

Sounds like we are heading in the right direction so far. :)
07/12/2005 01:56:49 PM · #71
A co-mentor's personal view of the post processing focus group...

Education in photography is the fundamental, core value of DPC.

Informal mentoring has been a part of DPC since long before I joined. But with the improvement in the skill levels of existing members, the huge growth of new inexperienced members and in order to reach the largest possible audience with useful ideas a formal mentoring program is an idea whose time has come.

At this stage it is an experiment to see how best that mentoring can be implemented. Gains from this experiment will benefit DPC at large.

I'm open for questions, comments and ideas about image post processing from anyone whether you are an official member of this group or not.

While mentorship is still being defined, this is my purpose:
1-Provide a venue for teaching and learning about image post processing
2-Ultimately provide personalized post processing mentoring to all interested DPCers
3-Create formal post processing tutorials for the benefit of all DPCers to be added under the "Learn" menu.

I figure to learn far more than I will ever teach. I'm one of those people that firmly believes that the camera CANNOT capture what the human eye can see either actually or figuratively and that the digital darkroom is a necessary, essential tool for ALL photographers of ALL levels. I believe it is as important as the camera itself.

Message edited by author 2005-07-12 15:14:10.
07/12/2005 02:36:05 PM · #72
Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Steve, I think that whatever you guys present us with is great, and I'm learning a heck of a lot so far. Both "painting with color" and "selection techniques" are definitely topics that I'm interested in learning so I leave it to you and David to decide what would be best in the learning curve here.

I believe Steve is already coming up with a lesson plan for "selection techniques" (correct me if I'm wrong). I believe it to be a very very important topic, as good selection technique is a foundation which many other techniques rely.
07/12/2005 03:12:16 PM · #73
Originally posted by aboutimage:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Steve, I think that whatever you guys present us with is great, and I'm learning a heck of a lot so far. Both "painting with color" and "selection techniques" are definitely topics that I'm interested in learning so I leave it to you and David to decide what would be best in the learning curve here.

I believe Steve is already coming up with a lesson plan for "selection techniques" (correct me if I'm wrong). I believe it to be a very very important topic, as good selection technique is a foundation which many other techniques rely.


Yes, I am deciding on an outline for "selection techniques" now. It is not as sexy as other topics but is an important cornerstone to post processing so makes a good early lesson. :)
07/12/2005 08:20:52 PM · #74
Proposed Lesson #2 "Selection Techniques" outline

Please comment in this thread or PM me with additions/changes/deletions you think should be made for this important topic. This is just an outline. The lesson will be made from the outline.

Remember, this lesson is for you and all DPCers. If there is anything you think of that you feel should be covered or is overlooked please PM me.

You don't have to be a member of this group to PM me your wishes.

Thanks.

Lesson #2 - Selection Techniques (rough outline)

I - Define what selections are and what they are used for

II - Concepts
..A-Objects and Marquee tools/Marching ants
..B-Borders/feathering
..C-Colors and eyedropper
..B-Channels/masks

III - Selection Techniques
..A-Tool Pallet - Marquee tools
..B-Select Menu - Color range, feathering, Modify(border/smooth/expand/contract)
..C-Load/Save selections

IV - Other Related Topics
..A-Copy/Paste/selections/Layers
..B-Transform/Free Transform
..C-Color Selection/Eye dropper
..D-Select bright and dark areas
..E-Snap to grids
..F-Paste Into
..G-Masks and Selections

V - Homework asssignments
..A-Selection of complex object with marguee tools/modify(+/-)/image process
..B-Sky Replacement/Select/Paste Into/cleanup

Message edited by author 2005-07-12 20:25:32.
07/12/2005 11:28:44 PM · #75
Originally posted by aboutimage:

I plan getting started with a first lesson by tomorrow, maybe by tonight.

First things first, I need to make sure everyone understands my skills are in Photoshop CS. If anyone needs specific guidance on how to do something in another program, I will try to help (I have 17 years experience in the computer field and know a thing or two) but most of my skill is with Adobe products.

Fortunately, many of the things we will discuss translate well into programs like The Gimp, etc.

So let's start off with 2 questions:
(1) What software are you using for post-processing?
(2) What is your perceived skill level (none, basic, intermediate, advanced)?
(3) What would you most like to learn about?


Colette
1. I have PS Elements 2, and Photoshop 6
2. Perceived skill is very little to none!
3. Learn about...hhhmmmm....curves & levels, would like to learn them but understand them. Learn how to photoshop to make my photo look the way "I" saw it....and to not 'look' photoshopped. Selective desaturation. Black/white. Fix blurry pictures. Pretty much everything and anything! :)

P.S. I would have posted sooner but our electricity just came back on today!!! Lost it during Hurr. Dennis :/ So I will be playing catch up!

Message edited by author 2005-07-12 23:30:06.
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