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02/01/2005 10:43:56 AM · #76 |
this will be very brief, as my wife really wants to get on the road to head home, and i don't want to push her patience unduly, but i do have a lot of thoughts on this topic.
the only thing i'll say right now is "Thank you to ALL who submitted!!!" this was the most grueling challenge i have ever experienced, mainly because of the content. i am ever so thankful for the images i liked that may not have yielded the scores they should have, because they definitely help blow the doors open. there is here, in one place, an incredible collection of imagery to point to in order to help others learn to see beyond the magazine photo and the product studio shot. these entries are incredible, and in due time, will be recognized as such. i sincerely urge all of you who feel let down by the scoring NOT TO QUIT. you've started something, you did it with passion, you caught something that no one can recreate! love it for what YOU did, not for how it scored!
[ok, i was just given the 'hon, we need to go...' i'll be back later tonight!
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02/01/2005 10:50:27 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Challenges here are primarily popularity contests. People VOTE on how an image appeals to them; they generally don't JUDGE in the context of any kind of objectivety. The sooner you realize that, the more accepting you'll be of the final average vote.
One benefit IMHO is that, if you're ever looking to sell your work, entering them in challenges here is a great way to guage how well it will be received. Technically perfect shots of turds just aren't popular and won't sell... |
I for one thint voting based on a photographs appeal is not a bad thing. I am not sure I trust people to JUDGE a photo. The techniques of photography are not the end in an of themselves, it is the final impact that counts. If someone breaks all the rules but the photo has a strong impact that it is a good photos, if on the other hand they make great use of composition color, DOF etc but the photo just sits there then it is not a particularly good photo.
This is how I would like to see people to vote, look at the photo and forget all that you think you know about photography, votes simply on how much you enjoy the photo, ask yourself if it is a photo you would ever want to see again? did it in some way enrich your day to see this photo? Vote at this point. Then look at what you believe could be improved in the photo, that would give it more impact, and now leave your comment.
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02/01/2005 10:52:41 AM · #78 |
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Originally posted by stdavidson:
I know genius when I see it. I gave this one a 10! |
As the photographer of this particular photo I must say it ended in this challenge almost exactly where I predicted it would. This photo does not adhere to the "formula" of ribbon winners on this DPC. I hold no ill will toward anyone who voted it down for blur or graininess.
That being said, I still love this photo. It is by far my favorite photo of 2004, not only for how it turned out (which I love) but also for the sheer joy of the moment. I do not know about anyone else, but I could use as much joy in my life as I can get. This photo does that for me. No one can take that from me by not seeing my "art". I appreciate all the wonderful comments from other photographers who saw what I did, and thanks to everyone else for voting your heart. That is what makes the world so special, we are all unique.
The blur and grain come from handholding at a slow shutter speed on a dark and dreary day, it is not something I photoshopped in.
Barbara
Message edited by author 2005-02-01 11:01:34.
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02/01/2005 11:00:55 AM · #79 |
Wow, this thread exploded while I was sleeping.
I think my main point was this- I was under the impression that this site was about helping people to become better photographers. Allowing us a place to learn about and practice composition, the use of light and other photographic techniques. And in addition, to learn what viewers like. So if you've done an excellent job composing and lighting a turd, and it fits the challenge, then hey- isn't that supposed to be half the battle? Every image submitted in a DPC challenge isn't supposed to be one you'd hang on your wall. Many of the challenge topics simply don't lend themselves to wall art. If every challenge was to make a great piece of wall art or a lovely greeting card, then this would be a different site altogether. "Poverty" isn't exactly postcard or wall art material, yet it was a challenge topic.
It's a little weird to say "don't take photos for the voters, take them for yourself". We all submit to these contests because we want others to see, critique and hopefully eventually approve of our work. If we took all our photographs for ourselves there would be no reason to enter a single challenge. Usually we don't enter challenges because "hey, I just happened to take a shot for myself this week that fits the "pink" challenge." We make an effort to shoot pink so we can enter and maybe even win.
When I shoot for myself I shoot very differently than I do for DPC. I love to travel and capture moods and situations and colors and candids of people being themselves. I rarely set up "prop" shots anymore (I used to a lot when I was taking photography classes, but now that I've got the basics of camera operation, no.) I think my set up shots look hollow and lifeless and flat.
It would seem that yes, everyone here thinks a little differently on how this is supposed to work and what is to be accomplished when shooting for a challenge and when voting on a challenge.
So to get back to my original comment, "I must re-evaluate my time here, I don't think I'm on the same wavelength as many of the voters." I think this is still true. I don't want to become a photographer whose work is solely to please the masses. I want to learn, and while I'm learning, to shoot things that I like in a way that speaks to me. If I should meet others along the way or if others should stumble across my website and find that my photos speak to them as well, excellent.
So for the time being, I may become one of those "hey, I took a great shot this week that fits the "pink" challenge! I think I'll enter it." types, instead of going out of my way to shoot for DPC (unless of course there is a challenge topic that really speaks to me. That's the best of both worlds).
And I will continue to look at the photographs here and to vote and to comment, in hopes of helping someone else to be a better photographer too. Because that's what I think is the best and most important purpose of this site.
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02/01/2005 11:02:05 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by BAMartin:
I do not know about anyone else, but I could use as much joy in my life as I can get. This photo does that for me. No one can take that from me by not seeing my "art". I appreciate all the wonderful comments from other photographers who saw what I did, and thanks to everyone else for voting your heart. That is what makes the world so special, we are all unique.
Barbara |
Very well said Ms Martin. Your views in this regard are laudable. I wish you the very best of luck in your future endeavours, and of course, as much joy and happiness as you can handle.
Ray |
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02/01/2005 11:02:05 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by BAMartin:
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Originally posted by stdavidson:
I know genius when I see it. I gave this one a 10! |
As the photographer of this particular photo I must say it ended in this challenge almost exactly where I predicted it would. This photo does not adhere to the "formula" of ribbon winners on this DPC. I hold no ill will toward anyone who voted it down for blur or graininess.
That being said, I still love this photo. It is by far my favorite photo of 2004, not only for how it turned out (which I love) but also for the sheer joy of the moment. I do not know about anyone else, but I could use as much joy in my life as I can get. This photo does that for me. No one can take that from me by not seeing my "art". I appreciate all the wonderful comments from other photographers who saw what I did, and thanks to everyone else for voting your heart. That is what makes the world so special, we are all unique.
The blur and grain come from handholding at a slow shutter speed on a dark and dreary day, it is not something I photoshopped in.
Barbara |
I want to thank you for giving us a photo that both shows so much joy and has brought forth so much thoughtful discussion. I would put forth a challenge to others, find a photo in the Best of 04 challenge that gives you the feeling of joy better then this photo.
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02/01/2005 11:13:20 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by scottwilson:
I would put forth a challenge to others, find a photo in the Best of 04 challenge that gives you the feeling of joy better then this photo. |
I don't get an ounce of the 'feeling of joy' when looking at that picture. My instincts tell me it is A) Not raining, and B) She needs the toilet.
:D
Whilst I like the picture, it doesn't say 'joy' to me.
Message edited by author 2005-02-01 11:14:45.
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02/01/2005 11:22:27 AM · #83 |
When I submitted mine, I knew that it would NOT score well, and as the voting went on, my judgment was affirmed. In the same vein, I did have one person who figured out what was happening and that was skiprow. He left a very good comment, which showed me that at least someone understood the photo. The shot was not the 'Best' in terms of photographic skills, composition, lighting, etc... however for me it was the best and proudest shot I took during the year. So this shot was definitely 'taken for myself' and not 'for the voters.' I did get one comment saying it was scrapbook quality, and I agree. Although I had hoped at least to get above 5. Oh well, thanks skiprow for understanding the photo.
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02/01/2005 11:25:14 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
...snip...
So for the time being, I may become one of those "hey, I took a great shot this week that fits the "pink" challenge! I think I'll enter it." types, instead of going out of my way to shoot for DPC (unless of course there is a challenge topic that really speaks to me. That's the best of both worlds).
And I will continue to look at the photographs here and to vote and to comment, in hopes of helping someone else to be a better photographer too. Because that's what I think is the best and most important purpose of this site. |
I have reached exactly the same point. I've been voting and participating in forums but have submitted nothing to the last four challenges since "Breaking New Ground" when I decided this as well.
I still think about the challenge, and while out shooting, I may even try to capture something for it, but unless it turns out really special, I may still not submit it (did that in fact for light when I was out testing my new 10-22mm lens). Basically I am going to shoot whatever I want from now on and not work specifically on challenges.
More importantly, I'm going to use the time to try and improve my art in other ways besides the "challenge" feedback process. |
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02/01/2005 11:43:08 AM · #85 |
My tens....
  
And I gave sooooo many nines .... alot ending up below the 30 mark.
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02/01/2005 12:08:54 PM · #86 |
| I am very new to this site, and this is the first time I have voted, and I didn't even make it through all of them, it would have taken forever. When I voted, I used the whole scale, though I think I only used one 1, and only one of 2 10's. I give my votes based on how a picture "speaks" to me. That sounds really cheesey, I know, but if I don't feel anything about a picture, then I don't score it as well. I haven't entered a challenge as of yet, hopefully this week, and I am sure that it is hard to work hard and not have people like or appreciate the art you are putting forward, but if you are happy with it what does it matter? There is a WIDE range of tastes in photography, that is what makes it interesting. There should be a wide range in the values of the votes also, we're human, we don't all have to like the same thing. |
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02/01/2005 12:12:37 PM · #87 |
I'm quite bewildered by the low top scores. I expected to be 4-5 pages down with 6.9.
Is there some weird maths at work here due to large volume of shots? I gave out loads of high scores, and it seems that others did too?? |
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02/01/2005 12:25:43 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
I'm quite bewildered by the low top scores. I expected to be 4-5 pages down with 6.9.
Is there some weird maths at work here due to large volume of shots? I gave out loads of high scores, and it seems that others did too?? |
I think it's a matter of there being a lot of strong images together with the diverse tastes of voters. Individual favorites are widely spread across the sample. Now with 340 votes per image, the high, mid, and low scores are more evenly distributed, bringing all closer to the mean.
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02/01/2005 12:30:24 PM · #89 |
After re-reading this thread, I have to admit that it would be VERY COOL to get a blue ribbon, or any ribbon other than brown, but when I enter, I like to stir things up a bit. None of the work in my portfolio is the same. It covers a wide range. I like the comments and the reactions. So, yes, I still shoot for myself even though I am entering my picture in a challenge. I comment in a way that leans toward the artistic and symbolic, hoping to get people to look at things in a new way. And I do feel a more artistic pull here in the last few months. At least we are looking at a variety of imagaes and having this discussion.
This is NOT saying that there is anything thing wrong with technical expertise. Both are a gift and when the artistic and the technical align just right, it is magic. You know it when you see it, and it transcends. Art without technical expertise and technical expertise without art both fall short. |
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02/01/2005 12:32:03 PM · #90 |
| The strongest human desire is acceptance, whether we will admit it to ourselves or not. We submit out souls and hope that someone out there says "Bravo, that's beautiful," and quite honestly, if you are human, it hurts when they don't. |
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02/01/2005 12:32:21 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by KDO:
...when the artistic and the technical align just right, it is magic. You know it when you see it, and it transcends. Art without technical expertise and technical expertise without art both fall short. |
Yep!
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02/01/2005 12:33:45 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
This was one of my 8s.. It's amazing that such a wonderful shot will do so poorly just because it's probably perceived as being "grainy" or "out of focus"
Bah.
None of my nines even hit the top 50.. but I've always known I have odd tastes compared to the rest of this community :) |
nshapiro,
I rated your photo a four not because the main subject was out of focus, which implies motion. I actually thought the subject was creatively displayed. The reason I gave it a four was because the background was also out of focus implying that you set the shutter speed slow enuogh to blur the motion of the subject but did not use a tripod to steady the camera giving the impression, overall, that the picture was out of focus.
I really did like what you did with the subject and enjoy your photography. |
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02/01/2005 12:40:22 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by tmhalling:
nshapiro,
I rated your photo a four not because the main subject was out of focus, which implies motion. I actually thought the subject was creatively displayed. The reason I gave it a four was because the background was also out of focus implying that you set the shutter speed slow enuogh to blur the motion of the subject but did not use a tripod to steady the camera giving the impression, overall, that the picture was out of focus.
I really did like what you did with the subject and enjoy your photography. |
Tim--this photo ("Rain Dance") is BAMartin's. I brought it up as an example of a photo that was REALLY REALLY underrated. I'm just awed, and my own creative motion blur shots (for example, Van Gogh Sky, my best of 04 entry) pale in comparison and are humbled by it. |
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02/01/2005 12:47:48 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
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Tim--this photo ("Rain Dance") is BAMartin's. I brought it up as an example of a photo that was REALLY REALLY underrated. I'm just awed, and my own creative motion blur shots (for example, Van Gogh Sky, my best of 04 entry) pale in comparison and are humbled by it. [/quote]
Neil, too bad you do not live closer, we could go out shooting together. I am sure we both could learn alot from each other.
Barbara
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02/01/2005 01:19:27 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
...I don't think I'm on the same wavelength as many of the voters... |
I feel the same way! My own best of '04 didn't do so well and I'm okay with that - but with this challenge (and most of the others), my top choices seem far away from the ribbon winners.
 and 
were my top 2 picks. A couple of my 9's did get into the top 10 which is unusual.
Even though I feel a bit out of sync sometimes, there is a lot I can learn here so I can better take the kinds of photos I like, even if they don't win ribbons.
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02/01/2005 01:24:16 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by BAMartin:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
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Tim--this photo ("Rain Dance") is BAMartin's. I brought it up as an example of a photo that was REALLY REALLY underrated. I'm just awed, and my own creative motion blur shots (for example, Van Gogh Sky, my best of 04 entry) pale in comparison and are humbled by it. |
Neil, too bad you do not live closer, we could go out shooting together. I am sure we both could learn alot from each other.
Barbara [/quote]
Yes, it's too bad, I'd like that. But you never know -- I used to go to Phoenix on business with Honeywell. Nothing planned, but who knows. And if you ever find yourself near the Albany area, after the shock wears off, let me know. ;) |
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02/01/2005 06:31:32 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by atsxus:
We're not voting here on what is technically sound or not - at least I hope we're not. We're voting on if the artist was able to capture something that evokes a response. For good or bad. If the viewer finds something in bad taste, or a subject that is unappealing, then it's going to get shot down. No matter HOW technically supurb it is. Do you put a piece of art on the wall that you can't look at, even if it's technically well done? What's the point of having it then?
There's art for art's sake, and then there's just pointlessness. A turd is a turd is a turd (to use the previous subject). At the end of the day, no matter how well captured - that's all it will be.
Stephanie |
I didn't say I vote on technical aspects alone. I do consider it as part of the score though. My previous comment was trying to explain that subject matter alone should not be the only thing you consider when voting. If that were the case, every kid, snake, spider, flower, water droplet, and cat shot (several of which you yourself have in your portfolio) would instantly be voted low by many people. All I'm saying is, people should take time to look at the image and consider what went into making the shot - instead of opening it up and going, "omg, it's a cat!" or, "omg, it's a kid!" and instantly slapping it with a low score. People need to be a little more open minded.
Jen
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02/01/2005 06:38:55 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
Wow, this thread exploded while I was sleeping.
I think my main point was this- I was under the impression that this site was about helping people to become better photographers. Allowing us a place to learn about and practice composition, the use of light and other photographic techniques. And in addition, to learn what viewers like. So if you've done an excellent job composing and lighting a turd, and it fits the challenge, then hey- isn't that supposed to be half the battle? Every image submitted in a DPC challenge isn't supposed to be one you'd hang on your wall. Many of the challenge topics simply don't lend themselves to wall art. If every challenge was to make a great piece of wall art or a lovely greeting card, then this would be a different site altogether. "Poverty" isn't exactly postcard or wall art material, yet it was a challenge topic. |
Yes! Agree. Thank you.
Originally posted by ahaze:
So for the time being, I may become one of those "hey, I took a great shot this week that fits the "pink" challenge! I think I'll enter it." types, instead of going out of my way to shoot for DPC (unless of course there is a challenge topic that really speaks to me. That's the best of both worlds). |
That's exactly what I do. I want to keep this hobby fun and enjoyable so I shoot for myself first. If it fits the current challenge, I'll enter it. I enjoy getting feedback, especially since it's temporarily anonymous, because I think people are sometimes intimidated to be truthful when there's a name attached to the image. Honest feedback is always a good thing...whether someone liked your image or not. Tracking your score and placement is fun and sometimes frustrating. In the end, if I like what I've created then that's all that matters.
Jen
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02/01/2005 06:52:51 PM · #99 |
Some of my faves in this challenge were:
              
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02/01/2005 07:29:14 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by ahaze:
So if you've done an excellent job composing and lighting a turd, and it fits the challenge, then hey- isn't that supposed to be half the battle? |
Yeah.. and half the battle gets a 5.
Originally posted by ahaze:
Every image submitted in a DPC challenge isn't supposed to be one you'd hang on your wall. Many of the challenge topics simply don't lend themselves to wall art. If every challenge was to make a great piece of wall art or a lovely greeting card, then this would be a different site altogether. "Poverty" isn't exactly postcard or wall art material, yet it was a challenge topic. |
It is already a site with lovely greeting cards, where half serious shots end up in the lower 30%, what are you talking about?
Besides, i don't know about you, but i can pick a photo to hang on the wall in every challenge, more or less. Including Poverty. Most of the time, those wouldn't be the winning shots. But i think i really don't care personally about the 'educational exercises' on a particular topic, so my views on the purpose of the site are completely different from yours, it seems.
Originally posted by ahaze:
When I shoot for myself I shoot very differently than I do for DPC. I love to travel and capture moods and situations and colors and candids of people being themselves.
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So, why not submit that and dilute the number of old barns and spider webs? And make this site a better place?
People don't necessarily vote the spider webs high because they truly like them, they just may not know the difference.
And it's not necessarily about the subject either. I hated 99% of the baby shots on the site. Because most of them are lame snapshots if you ask me, but this is easily one of the top 10 shots i've seen in a year:
Originally posted by ahaze:
So to get back to my original comment, "I must re-evaluate my time here, I don't think I'm on the same wavelength as many of the voters." I think this is still true. I don't want to become a photographer whose work is solely to please the masses.
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Awesome, so don't give up and try to be different, it matters. And at least i can say you're on the same wavelength with me. And in the same phase too even if we have different views on some things.
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